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2014 Formula 1 UBS Chinese Grand Prix

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AMS97KRR said:
Yes, Ricciardo is only behind Vettel because of Malaysia and Australia where he was screwed over through no fault of his own. Although Vettel retired from Australia too, I find it highly unlikely Vettel would of beaten Ricciardo there so yeah, 3-1 to Ricciardo in the races so far, which for Vettel, a 4x world champion, is truly shocking and Ricciardo would of been comfortably ahead of Vettel in the WDC.
All speculation, you don't know what would have happened. In Australia Vettel may have made an amazing recovery drive to finish 2nd, in Malaysia Ricciardo may have just crashed or spun. We don't know what could have happened, so why bother bringing it up? As far as the FIA are concerned in Aus Ricciardo was racing an illegal car, so in Aus for me it was 0-0 and in Malaysia it was 1-0 Vettel, in Bahrain it was 1-1 and now it is 2-1 Ricciardo. 
I think 2-1 is a fair reflection and in fact, the FIA would probably say 2-2 because a DSQ is lower than a DNF. Going on final race results, 2-2 would be the legit score, although that isn't really the case IMO.

Vettel has had a tricky few races, but 2011 proved for me that even the best have an off season. I'm not worrying too much, you don't win 4 Titles by accident.
Ugh, I thought a few months off from the Codies forum might put sense into you. Apparently not so.

1. I would happily bet my whole life that Vettel would not have beaten Ricciardo in Australia. Its so obvious that it pains me to see your fanboyism can't accept that Vettel wouldn't of beaten him.

2. Ricciardo had 7 laps left in Malayisa. He wouldn't of spun out, just accept it. There's no ifs and buts here, he plainly wouldn't off, he managed 49 laps beforehand, I fail to see why the 7 laps at the end would of been any different.

3. The F1 results place Daniel Ricciardo ahead of Sebastian Vettel in the Australian results so yeah, out goes your logic there again. 3-1 still.

4. Yeah you're right, you don't win 4 titles by accident. All you need is a good car and a unmotivated team mate who never grasped how to drive blown diffusers.

Gah, I get easily frustrated by people posting ridiculous stuff.

EDIT: I won't bother replying anymore, I don't want this thread to descend further into arguments.

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AMS97KRR said:
Liam12d said:
AMS97KRR said:
None of the seasons (other than 2011) Vettel has won has been this bad after 4 races. 2010 was great, 2012 was really good and 2013 was interesting as well. 2011 and 2014 are just dull and I'd rather not have years like that at all. 

I know how you felt when Vettel won like this, everyone made a massive effort to say how they felt on the old forums every time he had the lead. Funny how there is less comments about dull races now after one corner has been completed. Can't think why.
2010 was a good season and so was 2012, but a bit painful as a Hamilton fan. The whole of 2011, and most of 2013 was extremely dull. You can't throw 2014 into the same category as 2011 after just 4 races, it doesn't make any sense. 2 rounds so far this season have been okay, with one of them being the best for about 3 years in terms of action. How you can say Bahrain is dull is beyond me.

Funny how there is more comments about dull races from Vettel fans now after one corner has been completed. Can't think why. 
Bahrain wasn't dull it was just REALLY predictable and in my opinion that makes it boring to a certain extent (in terms of racing for the lead). It was only ever going to be Mercedes Vs Mercedes, which is how it will be all season. Even Red Bull were not this dominant. Hamilton wasn't even pushing his hardest and he got 10 seconds in 10 laps.
2014 is boring, every lead is either Merc Vs Merc or no competition at all.

Not a single Vettel fan came on here and commented about a Hamilton win after one corner. That legitimately happened last year when Vettel was winning.  
Yes the lead was predictable, point out the obvious. I was was talking about the rest of the field, where overtakes and battles were happening left right and centre. Yes you have a point, Red bull were not this dominant, but they were so dominant to the point that it doesn't matter, no-one was going to catch them anyway. This is the same situation this year. Yes the Mercs are dominant but they aren't going to be caught. The only difference between Red bull's winning slant on the sport is that their margin to victory was less than Mercs. Oh and it was a one horse race as well. At least this year, where overtaking is made in mind with the track design, Hamilton and Rosberg will battle it out for the win. 

Vettel has had it plain sailing the past few years when his car has had the edge over the field, with no direct competitor, hopefully this year when the track can support it, there is more competition for the win as witnessed in Bahrain. 
PS: My clever remark wasn't talking about this forum, its about everywhere where you can see the Vettel fans showing their thoughts of races, as they moan about Hamilton winning in the same regard as their possibly to be proven average driver.

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That is all SPECULATION. I agree completely, Ricciardo would have beaten him in Aus and would have finished Malaysia in my opinion. But you don't know that for sure.

Do the results say that though? I thought a DSQ was always lower than a DNF? According to the BBC results page he is dead last with Vettel in 18th (although not classified). 

Yes we have all heard this one before. And average driver wont win a title, let alone 4 in a row. They will have the wrong mindset, a lack of skill when it really matters (such as Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012 where Vettel had to rescue his title fight despite the setbacks - I think an average driver would have given up to a certain extent, I don't believe Perez would have the skill and mindset to do what Vettel did).

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Liam12d said:
AMS97KRR said:
Liam12d said:
AMS97KRR said:
None of the seasons (other than 2011) Vettel has won has been this bad after 4 races. 2010 was great, 2012 was really good and 2013 was interesting as well. 2011 and 2014 are just dull and I'd rather not have years like that at all. 

I know how you felt when Vettel won like this, everyone made a massive effort to say how they felt on the old forums every time he had the lead. Funny how there is less comments about dull races now after one corner has been completed. Can't think why.
2010 was a good season and so was 2012, but a bit painful as a Hamilton fan. The whole of 2011, and most of 2013 was extremely dull. You can't throw 2014 into the same category as 2011 after just 4 races, it doesn't make any sense. 2 rounds so far this season have been okay, with one of them being the best for about 3 years in terms of action. How you can say Bahrain is dull is beyond me.

Funny how there is more comments about dull races from Vettel fans now after one corner has been completed. Can't think why. 
Bahrain wasn't dull it was just REALLY predictable and in my opinion that makes it boring to a certain extent (in terms of racing for the lead). It was only ever going to be Mercedes Vs Mercedes, which is how it will be all season. Even Red Bull were not this dominant. Hamilton wasn't even pushing his hardest and he got 10 seconds in 10 laps.
2014 is boring, every lead is either Merc Vs Merc or no competition at all.

Not a single Vettel fan came on here and commented about a Hamilton win after one corner. That legitimately happened last year when Vettel was winning.  
Yes the lead was predictable, point out the obvious. I was was talking about the rest of the field, where overtakes and battles were happening left right and centre. Yes you have a point, Red bull were not this dominant, but they were so dominant to the point that it doesn't matter, no-one was going to catch them anyway. This is the same situation this year. Yes the Mercs are dominant but they aren't going to be caught. The only difference between Red bull's winning slant on the sport is that their margin to victory was less than Mercs. Oh and it was a one horse race as well. At least this year, where overtaking is made in mind with the track design, Hamilton and Rosberg will battle it out for the win. 

Vettel has had it plain sailing the past few years when his car has had the edge over the field, with no direct competitor, hopefully this year when the track can support it, there is more competition for the win as witnessed in Bahrain. 
PS: My clever remark wasn't talking about this forum, its about everywhere where you can see the Vettel fans showing their thoughts of races, as they moan about Hamilton winning in the same regard as their possibly to be proven average driver.
I don't think Rosberg will challenge him every race like Bahrain, Hamilton will win the title. But how will that feel for the Hamilton fans? Will it be a hollow victory? They always point out how Vettel had the best car, must be a tricky situation. IMO he deserves a second title based on skill, it is just a shame it had to come like this.

"Possibly proven average driver". 

Guess Hamilton must be average then, outperformed by Button in 2011 and kept crashing into Massa.

Yep. Thought so.

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AMS97KRR said:
Yes, Ricciardo is only behind Vettel because of Malaysia and Australia where he was screwed over through no fault of his own. Although Vettel retired from Australia too, I find it highly unlikely Vettel would of beaten Ricciardo there so yeah, 3-1 to Ricciardo in the races so far, which for Vettel, a 4x world champion, is truly shocking and Ricciardo would of been comfortably ahead of Vettel in the WDC.
All speculation, you don't know what would have happened. In Australia Vettel may have made an amazing recovery drive to finish 2nd, in Malaysia Ricciardo may have just crashed or spun. We don't know what could have happened, so why bother bringing it up? As far as the FIA are concerned in Aus Ricciardo was racing an illegal car, so in Aus for me it was 0-0 and in Malaysia it was 1-0 Vettel, in Bahrain it was 1-1 and now it is 2-1 Ricciardo. 
I think 2-1 is a fair reflection and in fact, the FIA would probably say 2-2 because a DSQ is lower than a DNF. Going on final race results, 2-2 would be the legit score, although that isn't really the case IMO.

Vettel has had a tricky few races, but 2011 proved for me that even the best have an off season. I'm not worrying too much, you don't win 4 Titles by accident.
Not when he doesn't have the magical blown diffuser as his pet.

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AMS97KRR said:
They will have the wrong mindset, a lack of skill when it really matters (such as Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012 where Vettel had to rescue his title fight despite the setbacks - I think an average driver would have given up to a certain extent, I don't believe Perez would have the skill and mindset to do what Vettel did).
Funny how you bring those exact two races up. I seem to remember Vettel botching the start and then turning into Senna in Brazil (and got remarkably lucky that his car wasn't terminally damaged), and hitting a DRS board under the safety car and overtaking Grosjean while exceeding track limits in Abu Dhabi.

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yugin96 said:
AMS97KRR said:
They will have the wrong mindset, a lack of skill when it really matters (such as Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012 where Vettel had to rescue his title fight despite the setbacks - I think an average driver would have given up to a certain extent, I don't believe Perez would have the skill and mindset to do what Vettel did).
Funny how you bring those exact two races up. I seem to remember Vettel botching the start and then turning into Senna in Brazil (and got remarkably lucky that his car wasn't terminally damaged), and hitting a DRS board under the safety car and overtaking Grosjean while exceeding track limits in Abu Dhabi.
He didn't botch the start, he wasn't given much room and lost out. Mistakes happen, but that was my point, how many drivers would still think it was possible to win after that kind of set back? He didn't dwell on it, he got back to a position he needed. My entire point was that he didn't let the incidents get to him, but in the past, drivers have let it get to them. Look at Webber in 2010 after his Korean GP. He wasn't the same afterwards, and he lost out as a result. That is what I am saying. 

If you spend long enough being happy with a 5th place, what is to say the one year you are in the title fight you don't end  up settling for second due to a setback? You might think "I've had a great season, 2nd is better than I'd ever thought I'd achieve".

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AMS97KRR said:
"Possibly proven average driver". 

Guess Hamilton must be average then, outperformed by Button in 2011 and kept crashing into Massa.

Yep. Thought so.
The one difference between what you're trying to say and Hamilton 2011 is that, Lewis didn't actually loose any speed, he just developed a problem for crashing. I seriously doubt Vettel has lost any of his speed, which is basically the only other way he can have an "off season". The problem here is that Vettel is too used to driving with massive down force levels and can't adapt quickly to the new regs. It's either this or I don't know what else.

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AMS97KRR said:
yugin96 said:
AMS97KRR said:
They will have the wrong mindset, a lack of skill when it really matters (such as Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012 where Vettel had to rescue his title fight despite the setbacks - I think an average driver would have given up to a certain extent, I don't believe Perez would have the skill and mindset to do what Vettel did).
Funny how you bring those exact two races up. I seem to remember Vettel botching the start and then turning into Senna in Brazil (and got remarkably lucky that his car wasn't terminally damaged), and hitting a DRS board under the safety car and overtaking Grosjean while exceeding track limits in Abu Dhabi.
Look at Webber in 2010 after his Korean GP. He wasn't the same afterwards, and he lost out as a result. That is what I am saying. 
Ok I lied, I will say something else. Webber had an injury from the Korean GP onwards. That's what most likely affected his performance.

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Liam12d said:
AMS97KRR said:
"Possibly proven average driver". 

Guess Hamilton must be average then, outperformed by Button in 2011 and kept crashing into Massa.

Yep. Thought so.
The one difference between what you're trying to say and Hamilton 2011 is that, Lewis didn't actually loose any speed, he just developed a problem for crashing. I seriously doubt Vettel has lost any of his speed, which is basically the only other way he can have an "off season". The problem here is that Vettel is too used to driving with massive down force levels and can't adapt quickly to the new regs. It's either this or I don't know what else.
He did at certain points, he looked off the pace in certain race compared with Button. I think Vettel is just adapting to the new cars, if you drove for 5 years with high downforce like he has due to Red Bulls set ups then you will have to adapt to it. Like was said in commentary, Ricciardo is used to lower downforce cars, so for him it is not so much of an issue.

People are too quick to jump on Vettel for being "average". Surely no one here actually thinks that due to 2 off races. 

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AMS97KRR said:
Liam12d said:
AMS97KRR said:
"Possibly proven average driver". 

Guess Hamilton must be average then, outperformed by Button in 2011 and kept crashing into Massa.

Yep. Thought so.
The one difference between what you're trying to say and Hamilton 2011 is that, Lewis didn't actually loose any speed, he just developed a problem for crashing. I seriously doubt Vettel has lost any of his speed, which is basically the only other way he can have an "off season". The problem here is that Vettel is too used to driving with massive down force levels and can't adapt quickly to the new regs. It's either this or I don't know what else.
He did at certain points, he looked off the pace in certain race compared with Button. I think Vettel is just adapting to the new cars, if you drove for 5 years with high downforce like he has due to Red Bulls set ups then you will have to adapt to it. Like was said in commentary, Ricciardo is used to lower downforce cars, so for him it is not so much of an issue.

People are too quick to jump on Vettel for being "average". Surely no one here actually thinks that due to 2 off races. 
Agreed, its a bit premature to come to such conclusions this early on. But if this continues throughout the season and Daniel consistently gets the better of him when both feel they got the maximum out of the car, then it will raise the same questions but with a bit more depth and understanding to them. 

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I think we should open up a Sebastian Vettel thread so that any arguements about him can be taken there instead of completely ruining any other threads.

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Why is every discussion classed as an arguement? I'm not angry or anything, it is a deabte, that is all. 

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Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?

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For me personally, I am thrilled to see the four times world champion being currently beaten by his younger and less experienced team mate. Ricciardo is doing a mighty fine job and trouncing Vettel in the last couple of races. Vettel is a great driver, obviously, he's just not making the most of what he has right now and Ricciardo is. I really hope Dan beats Vettel over the whole season, it would be so cool for Vettel to be finally beaten by a team mate :p

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fIsince08 said:
Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?
Who said Hamilton was average? 

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AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?
Who said Hamilton was average? 
Vettelfan last season.

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fIsince08 said:
AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?
Who said Hamilton was average? 
Vettelfan last season.
Seriously? Hamilton is 2nd/3rd best driver IMO. I'd really like to see a Vettel vs Hamilon battle with the same car to determine that. I think Hamilton has the most natural talent, but Vettel applies himself more which is why he is where he is I think. And Alonso is just great overall except in Quali.

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AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?
Who said Hamilton was average? 
Vettelfan last season.
Seriously? Hamilton is 2nd/3rd best driver IMO. I'd really like to see a Vettel vs Hamilon battle with the same car to determine that. I think Hamilton has the most natural talent, but Vettel applies himself more which is why he is where he is I think. And Alonso is just great overall except in Quali.
Ow I don't think you'd like to see Hamilton and Vettel in the same team, believe me. You wouldn't wanna see that at all.


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Anyway, average race overall, of course it's much better in my Hamilton-tinted glasses but generally quite boring. I wonder how long before Pirelli is asked to produce softer tyres again.

Great effort once again by Alonso, finishing 56 seconds ahead of your teammate is something like a miracle considering your teammate is Kimi and not Massa anymore. Good start for Mattiaci's career as Ferrari team-principal too, hopefully they can build up on that result.

McLaren are becoming more and more of a joke, seriously, they have the best engine and the worst chassis of all the Mercedes-powered cars. How do you become so average in just 2 years, especially while having the best car on the grid at the end of 2012?


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AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
AMS97KRR said:
fIsince08 said:
Why is it that when Hamilton was struggling with his car last season he was an average driver struggling to adapt to the new car and when Vettel struggles it's because he's not used to a lower downforce car but is still great?
Who said Hamilton was average? 
Vettelfan last season.
Seriously? Hamilton is 2nd/3rd best driver IMO. I'd really like to see a Vettel vs Hamilon battle with the same car to determine that. I think Hamilton has the most natural talent, but Vettel applies himself more which is why he is where he is I think. And Alonso is just great overall except in Quali.
Ow I don't think you'd like to see Hamilton and Vettel in the same team, believe me. You wouldn't wanna see that at all.


I think your exaggerating just a tad.  ;)

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