[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

gheeD said:

stumbled upon a vid of a beemer in a recent local rally with telemetry on it. including g forces 
https://youtu.be/nJZprpgbszI

edit: car in vid 

Approximately 0.75 lateral G's under compression and highest spikes during braking and compression barely touching 1.0 G's.

[Headlong 0]

gheeD said:

stumbled upon a vid of a beemer in a recent local rally with telemetry on it. including g forces 
https://youtu.be/nJZprpgbszI

edit: car in vid 

gheeD said:

stumbled upon a vid of a beemer in a recent local rally with telemetry on it. including g forces 
https://youtu.be/nJZprpgbszI

edit: car in vid 

That's pretty much how I drive in D4 when I deliberately set the car up to oversteer to the max. 

Also so notice how in the video the surface is very soft and loose which makes it relatively easy to control the slides, plus the surface is very wide and smooth and yet notice how hard the driver is working to keep the car balanced during each slide. Plus he is actually driving relatively straight most of the time. 

[gheeD 15]

yes the gravel roads like in this vid is very compacted gravel to form a quite firm and smooth surface, with bits of light gravel on top of the surface. also you can notice the road is bit wet / damp which in approx those amounts increase the grip as it holds the gravel together bit more, until it gets really wet and is like mud and slippery.

comparing to the e30 m3 in dirt we should have a bit more umpf and thus bit looser rear but not much difference to dirt 4 i think in those speeds. Once again the behaviour im not so sure about when you push the car to its limits and try to get the rear step out kn a corner. but i will have to play more to form better opinion about it

[Accro2008 27]

Headlong said:

Accro2008 said:

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

It's not perfect, but it's closer to reality than DR, and don't recall too many people complaining that the cars didn't feel righ in DR. In fact, there are still people on this forum now who believe that DR is more realistic. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusion. 

My conclusion is that the goal of a simulation is to come as close as reality as possible, and D4 is some area is very far from it, even further away than DR was. In this case rear end grip (even if it was not perfect either). 
And you don't need to be Juha Kankkunen or Ott Tanak to see it.

[versedi 39]

Accro2008 said:

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

And this is perfect example of diving and, and doing exactly opposite of the title.
UNCONSTRUCTIVE bull shit.

No one in this thread said that cars are feeling PERFECT.
Show me the quote!

battfinkz said:

I havent had a good look into the tuning on D4 yet but can you adjust LSD? The video of the doughnut to me just looks like its trying to replicate a slip diff transferring power to the front under loss of grip?

Not in all cars.
Scoobie doesn't have rear one.

[bogani 756]

gheeD said:

yes the gravel roads like in this vid is very compacted gravel to form a quite firm and smooth surface, with bits of light gravel on top of the surface. also you can notice the road is bit wet / damp which in approx those amounts increase the grip as it holds the gravel together bit more, until it gets really wet and is like mud and slippery.

comparing to the e30 m3 in dirt we should have a bit more umpf and thus bit looser rear but not much difference to dirt 4 i think in those speeds. Once again the behaviour im not so sure about when you push the car to its limits and try to get the rear step out kn a corner. but i will have to play more to form better opinion about it

The grip isn't progressive enough when powering out of a hairpin on gravel in D4 atm. Either the rear tires bite back and send you off in the countersteering direction or you just spin out. Still, the M3 is one of the few RWD's you can actually get some on throttle oversteer. Compare that to the Kadett, that thing is almost impossible to provoke on throttle.

Did you try the M3 around Dirtfish btw? It feels truly excellent there!

[bogani 756]

Accro2008 said:

Headlong said:

Accro2008 said:

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

It's not perfect, but it's closer to reality than DR, and don't recall too many people complaining that the cars didn't feel righ in DR. In fact, there are still people on this forum now who believe that DR is more realistic. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusion. 

My conclusion is that the goal of a simulation is to come as close as reality as possible, and D4 is some area is very far from it, even further away than DR was. In this case rear end grip (even if it was not perfect either). 
And you don't need to be Juha Kankkunen or Ott Tanak to see it.

Yes, I agree. But in many aspects it also has improved. The way you carry the cars over crest and bumps feels great. I wouldn't mind doing a proper finnish stage with an R5 :)

[bogani 756]

Porkhammer said:

Headlong said:

Ok then, please tell me which aspects are clearly wrong with references to your real world experiences. Because in all honesty in the majority of the situations in D4 I find it very difficult to gauge the extent to which a particular behaviour is realistic or not, and I've been driving on dirt for decades, including group n rally cars on gravel. 

in fact, reading some of these comments I get the impression that some people have no concept of how difficult it is to kick the rear out in a rally car, and how difficult it is to then control that slide, especially at high speed., and how easy it is to lose momentum and revs by getting it too sideways etc. And this is almost exlusively what the compliants seem to be about.  

There certainly are things that can be improved in D4, but those improvements have to come from references to real life, from actual testing, and not from opinions and conjectures from people who use other games as a reference for realistic car behaviour.

Of course it's hard to get the butt out with a Group N car, which you are so familiar with, because they weigh about 59,000 tons. WRC cars are different, especially when setup for oversteer. They are quite tailhappy. Look at this, he is sliding constantly, with very little effort (old WRC car but still, I wish the 2001 Subaru handled like this in-game):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGtCYoBxp6Y

I dislike the 2001 Impreza in DR and I dislike it in D4. It just drives very strange. Always feels so soft and mushy, never sharp, no matter how you set it up.

[battfinkz 34]

The rear end grip is a little op but it's far closer to what ive been lucky enough to experience than dirt rally was.

Watch the endless levels of grip loeb has here in Finland doing speeds of well over 100mph, and especially between 6 mins and 6.30. Dirt rally will forever be one of my all time fav rally games but it did not replicate lsd or the weight and weight transfer, or grip levels well at all, even on tarmac.

Out of the two games id say dirt rally was the most fun to handle, but D4 feels more right flying through the stages.

Again just my opinion though and its nice to meet people who for the most part don't act like idiots when someone has a different view to theirs

https://youtu.be/EEYL0zEd8Vc

[Accro2008 27]

versedi said:

Accro2008 said:

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

And this is perfect example of diving and, and doing exactly opposite of the title.
UNCONSTRUCTIVE bull ****.

No one in this thread said that cars are feeling PERFECT.
Show me the quote!

Nice overreaction on you part. It was more an "overall" observation, not a statement about this thread in particular.

Want some exemples, here you go they are not very hard to find :
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6glkup/people_who_complain_about_the_physics_and/?st=j3vexes6&sh=1d852ffe
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6gnesk/i_cant_believe_people_think_the_physics_in_this/?st=j3veurxc&sh=a95f9b0c

[MaXyMsrpl 281]

Loeb's driving looks this way because of setup and his driving style choice. It doesn't meen that he couldn't drive this car another way.

@bogani
yeah, question is if improving some aspects justify other things got broken. Especially if those last are crucial for rallying. 

Btw @headlong is repeatedly mentioning how hard is to powerslide in real life. I cannot agree with this. If you have enogh power budget it's very easy to initiate rear axle slide and physically even easier to maintain it. Problem is with precission of driving such sliding car, in higher speeds etc. 
Point is, that in D4 you cannot maintain powerslide like in real life if you want.

[Headlong 0]

bogani said:

Accro2008 said:

Headlong said:

Accro2008 said:

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

It's not perfect, but it's closer to reality than DR, and don't recall too many people complaining that the cars didn't feel righ in DR. In fact, there are still people on this forum now who believe that DR is more realistic. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusion. 

My conclusion is that the goal of a simulation is to come as close as reality as possible, and D4 is some area is very far from it, even further away than DR was. In this case rear end grip (even if it was not perfect either). 
And you don't need to be Juha Kankkunen or Ott Tanak to see it.

Yes, I agree. But in many aspects it also has improved. The way you carry the cars over crest and bumps feels great. I wouldn't mind doing a proper finnish stage with an R5 :)

bogani said:

gheeD said:

yes the gravel roads like in this vid is very compacted gravel to form a quite firm and smooth surface, with bits of light gravel on top of the surface. also you can notice the road is bit wet / damp which in approx those amounts increase the grip as it holds the gravel together bit more, until it gets really wet and is like mud and slippery.

comparing to the e30 m3 in dirt we should have a bit more umpf and thus bit looser rear but not much difference to dirt 4 i think in those speeds. Once again the behaviour im not so sure about when you push the car to its limits and try to get the rear step out kn a corner. but i will have to play more to form better opinion about it

The grip isn't progressive enough when powering out of a hairpin on gravel in D4 atm. Either the rear tires bite back and send you off in the countersteering direction or you just spin out. Still, the M3 is one of the few RWD's you can actually get some on throttle oversteer. Compare that to the Kadett, that thing is almost impossible to provoke on throttle.

This I agree with. The only thing I would wish for is to have more progressive throttle control and better feel for what the rear wheels are doing. Otherwise the overall physics and the way the cars behave is pretty excellent. 

[Adrian97fs 0]

I think the physics have improved over DR, specially in tarmac, but it's really frustrating that rear grip. I mean, I was driving the Evo X and it was completely impossible to slide with it. It almost handles like a FWD. I turn in but the car just go straight. It's very frustrating because it's been a massive improvement in braking, you can enter the turn sliding but then the rear just catch massive grip. 

It also happens in the Group A cars. In the R5 class it's not so obvious. 

[Headlong 0]

battfinkz said:

The rear end grip is a little op but it's far closer to what ive been lucky enough to experience than dirt rally was.

Watch the endless levels of grip loeb has here in Finland doing speeds of well over 100mph, and especially between 6 mins and 6.30. Dirt rally will forever be one of my all time fav rally games but it did not replicate lsd or the weight and weight transfer, or grip levels well at all, even on tarmac.

Out of the two games id say dirt rally was the most fun to handle, but D4 feels more right flying through the stages.

Again just my opinion though and its nice to meet people who for the most part don't act like idiots when someone has a different view to theirs

https://youtu.be/EEYL0zEd8Vc

This is so similar to the way the modern cars drive in D4 as to be almost unbelievable. I don't understand why people don't see it. 

[MaXyMsrpl 281]

I don't understand how you don't see it's consequence of driving style chosen for particular conditions. But it doesn't mean it couldn't been driven completely sideways if they wanted to. And they do that too occasionally just for spectators fun. Simply put, car is able to do that while driver decides about driving style.

We are talking about ability of car going sideways, not a out simulating Loeb's driving style

[SirPhilMcKraken 279]

Headlong said:

battfinkz said:

The rear end grip is a little op but it's far closer to what ive been lucky enough to experience than dirt rally was.

Watch the endless levels of grip loeb has here in Finland doing speeds of well over 100mph, and especially between 6 mins and 6.30. Dirt rally will forever be one of my all time fav rally games but it did not replicate lsd or the weight and weight transfer, or grip levels well at all, even on tarmac.

Out of the two games id say dirt rally was the most fun to handle, but D4 feels more right flying through the stages.

Again just my opinion though and its nice to meet people who for the most part don't act like idiots when someone has a different view to theirs

https://youtu.be/EEYL0zEd8Vc

This is so similar to the way the modern cars drive in D4 as to be almost unbelievable. I don't understand why people don't see it. 

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

[battfinkz 34]

Going back to the loeb video, i have found a very specific moment that shows just what those wrc cars were like then.

From 3.15 to 3.30, loeb takes a long right corner (then a left), it looks like a 3, its over small jumps, and hes doing at least 70 to 80 mph.

So hes going quite fast, the car is starting to leave the track over the jumps, yet he's STILL lurching the nose into the corner, yet as he's on the power the car is flicking out straight, his front end is whipping back round.

https://youtu.be/EEYL0zEd8Vc

[versedi 39]

Accro2008 said:

Nice overreaction on you part. It was more an "overall" observation, not a statement about this thread in particular.

Want some exemples, here you go they are not very hard to find :
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6glkup/people_who_complain_about_the_physics_and/?st=j3vexes6&sh=1d852ffe
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6gnesk/i_cant_believe_people_think_the_physics_in_this/?st=j3veurxc&sh=a95f9b0c

It was an overreaction so my apologise but I've got enough of this pseudo-constructive feedback. "Too much grip, its not perfect, it's arcade, not real, DR was better and "in this video, in that video". "

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

No one on this forum told you that you shouldn't have an opinion and give feedback (constructive) if you're not a rally driver. Yet you went there and started being passive-aggresive about wrc drivers on forum.

Don't link reddit posts, we're here - we're speaking about this discussion board.
 

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This. The question is:

What's the reason?

[Headlong 0]

versedi said:

Accro2008 said:

Nice overreaction on you part. It was more an "overall" observation, not a statement about this thread in particular.

Want some exemples, here you go they are not very hard to find :
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6glkup/people_who_complain_about_the_physics_and/?st=j3vexes6&sh=1d852ffe
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6gnesk/i_cant_believe_people_think_the_physics_in_this/?st=j3veurxc&sh=a95f9b0c

It was an overreaction so my apologise but I've got enough of this pseudo-constructive feedback. "Too much grip, its not perfect, it's arcade, not real, DR was better and "in this video, in that video". "

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

No one on this forum told you that you shouldn't have an opinion and give feedback (constructive) if you're not a rally driver. Yet you went there and started being passive-aggresive about wrc drivers on forum.

Don't link reddit posts, we're here - we're speaking about this discussion board.
 

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This. The question is:

What's the reason?

The reason is that the wheelspin is not quite as progressive as it is in real life and it's difficult to feel what the rear wheels are doing. If codemasters could make the wheelspin a little bit more progressive and give us a bit more feel, it would be easier to get exactly the arc we want more consistently. 

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This is something that looks very weird in every single D4 onboard and it was already immersion braking glitch in DR.

What is causing it might have some simple explanations like completely linear load sensitivity, aerodynamic model which goes nuts after certain AoA, way too effective dynamic road surface, some limitation because of how the physics engine works (inertia) or combination of various different factors. Tyres seems to be able to deliver infinite grip if the car is sideways enough.

[Headlong 0]

Nahkamarakatti said:

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This is something that looks very weird in every single D4 onboard and it was already immersion braking glitch in DR.

What is causing it might have some simple explanations like completely linear load sensitivity, aerodynamic model which goes nuts after certain AoA, way too effective dynamic road surface, some limitation because of how the physics engine works or combination of various different factors. Tyres seems to be able to deliver infinite grip if the car is sideways enough.

The tyres are certainly not delivering infinite lateral grip when the cars get sideways because the cars very often slide sideways until one or both of the outside tyres dig in, or until friction brings the car to a stop.  And if they were delivering infinite longitudinal grip it would always be possible to pull the car forward when losing the rear and heading off the track backwards, and that simply isn't the case. 

[Sho846 0]

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mDDq97tmzk&t=76s

There is tons more of Sweden onboards and footage to validate that Swedish snow and ice roads are far more loose than it is in D4.

[versedi 39]

Looks and feels different? Check out the enormous grip level he has:

https://youtu.be/vfoXM1HMUKw


I think we shouldn't use recent year WRC cars to compare them to what we have in game.

[dgeesi0 305]

@SirPhilMcKrakenyour simple image says it as easy as need to be said. ;)

[gheeD 15]

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mDDq97tmzk&t=76s

There is tons more of Sweden onboards and footage to validate that Swedish snow and ice roads are far more loose than it is in D4.

They pretty much do, you just have to setup the car right to get so much oversteer to be nimble through tight corners.