[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[battfinkz 34]

Since the snow grip has come over into this thread ive copy pasted this into here too.

Snow physics feel great to me. The reality is that the narrow tungsten steel spiked tyres deliver MORE grip to wrc drivers than they get on gravel stages, this is something wrc drivers always talk about, especially this year in sweden. Tyres constantly dig in and the spikes even snap under compacted surfaces

The proof is in the stats, sweden consistently has some of the fastest average speeds of all rallies throughout the year, always over 100kph, average! In 2014 one stage clocked up 117kph average.

Im glad a rally game dev has finally had the nads to show people what snow is actually like, and not some silly constantly slippery power sliding fantastical clown fest we're usually subjected to lol

[SirPhilMcKraken 279]

dgeesi0 said:

@SirPhilMcKrakenyour simple image says it as easy as need to be said. ;)

That's what I was aiming for ;) A picture can say a thousand words!

[Sho846 0]

versedi said:

Looks and feels different? Check out the enormous grip level he has:

https://youtu.be/vfoXM1HMUKw


I think we shouldn't use recent year WRC cars to compare them to what we have in game.

I have watched that as well. Loeb does oversteer in corner entry (and the longer corners holds the slide), and only straightens out at exit. That is just how you have to make the car act on loose surfaces, even with studded tyres.

I remember watching that video when I was playing Dirt Rally actually (its the same Vargassen stage in the game), I thought the grip levels were very similar, but with Loeb's amazing smooth style of driving. Yes, the weight of the car in DR was just wrong, and thankfully they corrected it in D4, but now the grip levels are wrong.

[Headlong 0]

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game?

Because this particular car and tyre combo does not feature in the game and because D4 only models one or two particular types of snow surface. 

The amount of grip on snow and the resulting driving technique can vary quite wildly based on the amount of snow on the surface, the actual surface underneath the snow, how compacted or how lose the layer of snow is on the surface etc. 

[Headlong 0]

versedi said:

Looks and feels different? Check out the enormous grip level he has:

https://youtu.be/vfoXM1HMUKw


I think we shouldn't use recent year WRC cars to compare them to what we have in game.

Again, this video is a lot more representative of how the cars in D4 actually behave on snow. 

[Sho846 0]

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game?

Because this particular car and tyre combo does not feature in the game and because D4 only models one or two particular types of snow surface. 

The amount of grip on snow and the resulting driving technique can vary quite wildly based on the amount of snow on the surface, the actual surface underneath the snow, how compacted or how lose the layer of snow is on the surface etc. 

Right in the surfaces video in the Dirtfish tutorial, they mention that there are many surfaces of snow in the game.

[Sho846 0]

Headlong said:

versedi said:

Looks and feels different? Check out the enormous grip level he has:

https://youtu.be/vfoXM1HMUKw


I think we shouldn't use recent year WRC cars to compare them to what we have in game.

Again, this video is a lot more representative of how the cars in D4 actually behave on snow. 

Read my reply above.

[bogani 756]

battfinkz said:

Since the snow grip has come over into this thread ive copy pasted this into here too.

Snow physics feel great to me. The reality is that the narrow tungsten steel spiked tyres deliver MORE grip to wrc drivers than they get on gravel stages, this is something wrc drivers always talk about, especially this year in sweden. Tyres constantly dig in and the spikes even snap under compacted surfaces

The proof is in the stats, sweden consistently has some of the fastest average speeds of all rallies throughout the year, always over 100kph, average! In 2014 one stage clocked up 117kph average.

Im glad a rally game dev has finally had the nads to show people what snow is actually like, and not some silly constantly slippery power sliding fantastical clown fest we're usually subjected to lol

Sadly the Swedish roads featured in D4 are far too bumpy and twisty to get those average speeds. I would have like some more flow to them.

[Sho846 0]

bogani said:

battfinkz said:

Since the snow grip has come over into this thread ive copy pasted this into here too.

Snow physics feel great to me. The reality is that the narrow tungsten steel spiked tyres deliver MORE grip to wrc drivers than they get on gravel stages, this is something wrc drivers always talk about, especially this year in sweden. Tyres constantly dig in and the spikes even snap under compacted surfaces

The proof is in the stats, sweden consistently has some of the fastest average speeds of all rallies throughout the year, always over 100kph, average! In 2014 one stage clocked up 117kph average.

Im glad a rally game dev has finally had the nads to show people what snow is actually like, and not some silly constantly slippery power sliding fantastical clown fest we're usually subjected to lol

Sadly the Swedish roads featured in D4 are far too bumpy and twisty to get those average speeds. I would have like some more flow to them.

I think a good challenge is fine :)

Your Stage does reproduce some very fast sections still, but also some twisty sections like you said.

My problem is that the grip levels are the worst of all the loose surface locations.

[Headlong 0]

Sho846 said:

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game?

Because this particular car and tyre combo does not feature in the game and because D4 only models one or two particular types of snow surface. 

The amount of grip on snow and the resulting driving technique can vary quite wildly based on the amount of snow on the surface, the actual surface underneath the snow, how compacted or how lose the layer of snow is on the surface etc. 

Right in the surfaces video in the Dirtfish tutorial, they mention that there are many surfaces of snow in the game.

I've only really noticed two distinctly different ones: a more compact one with more bite, and a looser one with slightly more progressive grip. Did they say how many are there supposed to be in D4?

[MrDeap 12]

There's a language barrier for programmers & what players are trying to point out. 

What Codemasters are doing is using the proper scientific model while giving the game being sim. The issue is the game doesn't feel sim, because there's a serious flaw in the scientific model.

What Codemasters did with DiRT Rally is using random stuff & black magic to get the result done, but it's not usable financially for future titles.

I approve Codemasters decision of using proper scientific model, improve light source & graphic. For the rest although... I don't know exactly how to describe that. 

[battfinkz 34]

Bogani have you tried generating a maximum length stage with the least complexity? Just an idea, maybe it will give a fast flowing stage?

[Sho846 0]

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game?

Because this particular car and tyre combo does not feature in the game and because D4 only models one or two particular types of snow surface. 

The amount of grip on snow and the resulting driving technique can vary quite wildly based on the amount of snow on the surface, the actual surface underneath the snow, how compacted or how lose the layer of snow is on the surface etc. 

Right in the surfaces video in the Dirtfish tutorial, they mention that there are many surfaces of snow in the game.

I've only really noticed two distinctly different ones: a more compact one with more bite, and a looser one with slightly more progressive grip. Did they say how many are there supposed to be in D4?

They've modeled different types of snow + roads with more gravel sticking out + ice slush. There might be more. You can check it in the Dirtfish academy videos.

[Headlong 0]

Sho846 said:

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Headlong said:

Sho846 said:

Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game?

Because this particular car and tyre combo does not feature in the game and because D4 only models one or two particular types of snow surface. 

The amount of grip on snow and the resulting driving technique can vary quite wildly based on the amount of snow on the surface, the actual surface underneath the snow, how compacted or how lose the layer of snow is on the surface etc. 

Right in the surfaces video in the Dirtfish tutorial, they mention that there are many surfaces of snow in the game.

I've only really noticed two distinctly different ones: a more compact one with more bite, and a looser one with slightly more progressive grip. Did they say how many are there supposed to be in D4?

They've modeled different types of snow + roads with more gravel sticking out + ice slush. There might be more. You can check it in the Dirtfish academy videos.

Sounds good. I'll definitely have to spend more time driving the Swedish stages. 

[thePanic 0]

Hello, I don't write much or at all in the forum but I wanted to give my feedback. I have 550h in DR, really love the game and for sure I didn't think of it as a 100% pure simulation. I had really high expectation for Dirt 4 because My Stage changes the async time trial game-play of DR to something as close as it can get to WRC.

Physics:
A great disappointment, all my game time I tried to power-slide and came to the conclusion it is impossible on gravel while achievable on tarmac. I have tried a lot of setups and a lot of cars (and I know how to induce oversteer and make it more manageable if you don't believe me try my Renault 5 Monaco setup, that car had massive understeer). I can't believe this is what they released it's at least buggy for me and if they think it is refined enough to offer it on sale it's not flattering for Codemasters. The only way you can change my point of view is hold a drift several times on gravel and post the video uneddited, just try dirt fish free play. Sure Rallycross cars are somewhat better and Group B but what about 037. It was possible for me to drift on tarmac and impossible on gravel, all the car did as previous posters described was flip for a split of a second and return to 0 drift angle.

For sure the drifts in DR weren't punishing at all and after some practice you could manage them easily and gain a lot of seconds being a drift king. By punishing I mean spins wouldn't end up in the ditch as the game would defy natures physics and apply an "ultrabrake" so that you would lose speed and come to a near stop, it also dragged you towards the inside of the corner. (I think there is something in common with the jump-in-angle mechanics though it doesn't matter anyway). Now from DR's style to the exact opposite which is forcing the gamers to drive in lines as if we were driving in a racetrack is a huge change really and Dirt 4 is not a game whose physics are based on dirt rally as Paul Coleman stated in the video. Driving style should be at a much higher extend in the hands of the gamer and I am ok if one is favored over the other and could live with that for the reason stated below, but here there isn't even a choice.

The main reason they decided to alter the physics model style, to me is that this particular driving style suits better Dirt 4 because you face previously unknown stages. At least I would drive like that, whenever I'm not sure in DR about a corner I slow down a bit more and as a result drive in lines. So a physics model that gives a advantage to that driving style really suits the new game-play feature My Stage (and the fact you can't memorize the millions of stages) which changes the hole philosophy of the game-play (DR is async time attack only).

The good stuff:
Braking was quite easy and in 4 it is far better implemented, it feels like weight transfer matters more, and the devs saying the new game's cars have actually proper weight has to do with it.

When you floor it in 4 the experience is much more realistic, the wheels will actually spin, regardless of a diff lock of 70%, based on how the wheels contact the surface. Playing the game for 17h I get the feeling there is more depth in those two areas.

About bumps and jumps some cars in DR offered somewhat the same experience though, through modifying the setup a lot(and I mean without sacrificing other good qualities of the car/setup). The stages surroundings are more forgiving which I think suits the new game's philosophy better.

waiting for your comments

[bogani 756]

Driving the Subaru NR4 through Michigan is pure pleasure though. It feels so well balanced!

[gheeD 15]

After setup changes the BMW, 95 subie  are pretty good and oversteery. Plenty of fun at the dirt fish like you said  @bogani :)

[bogani 756]

gheeD said:

After setup changes the BMW, 95 subie  are pretty good and oversteery. Plenty of fun at the dirt fish like you said  @bogani :)

Many cars feel great at dirt fish. RWD cars feel much more alive!

[dgeesi0 305]

can people publish set ups that work ?

a thread would be handy.

[Smalls0n 0]

Hey,
No one there talked about FWD. But I have the feeling they are way so easy to drive, and have too much front grip while the rear does not lose grip too easily. 
Pushing throttle heavily manage to keep good lanes even at high speed. It give me the feeling that the r2 cars got 300hp. 
Maybe this thing is right, and it's just me the weird thing. I don't know. 

[SamRWD 2]

dgeesi0 said:

can people publish set ups that work ?

a thread would be handy.

I posted a working setup for snow WRX STi NR4 few pages back. 

[thePanic 0]

gheeD said:

After setup changes the BMW, 95 subie  are pretty good and oversteery. Plenty of fun at the dirt fish like you said  @bogani :)

Can you hold a powerslide? Or does it feel like it's oversteery and needs a correction?

[redriot77 91]

Smalls0n said:

No one there talked about FWD. But I have the feeling they are way so easy to drive, and have too much front grip while the rear does not lose grip too easily. 

I think FWDs modelled much better in D4 than in Dirt Rally. I usually avoid FWDs like plague in every sim I play but in D4 I've had some fun stages with them. 
Too much front grip? I had a rally in Australia with the 306 Maxi and many times the front wheels struggled to find some grip, had many wheelspin. The 205 GTi (not the GruppeB T16!) is also much more fun than I expected.  I wouldn't change a thing on the FWDs, they are perfect now.

[chukonu 476]

Smalls0n said:

Hey,
No one there talked about FWD. But I have the feeling they are way so easy to drive, and have too much front grip while the rear does not lose grip too easily. 
Pushing throttle heavily manage to keep good lanes even at high speed. It give me the feeling that the r2 cars got 300hp. 
Maybe this thing is right, and it's just me the weird thing. I don't know.

I found the FWD really well done. Especially the kit cars, they are great!

[ShodanCat 231]

So anyone ever stop to wonder why half of us are saying the physics need some major reworking and half claim it's the best rally sim ever? That just seems odd to me.