[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[bogani 756]

ShodanCat said:

So anyone ever stop to wonder why half of us are saying the physics need some major reworking and half claim it's the best rally sim ever? That just seems odd to me.

I think there are very few, if any,  that claim it's the best rally sim ever atm. I think many of us see the potential and improvements in many aspects, but still see it needs to be dialed in a bit more to get the best out of it.

[SamRWD 2]

Maybe an option to use "obsolete tyre" that gives less grip for those of us who think we need less grip, and "modern tyre" that maintains current grip levels?

[ShodanCat 231]

More like "simulation tyre" for those of us who want the more realistic/less grip levels, and a "gamer tyre" for the high grip current model. But yes, I am all for having the option. Options are always good.

[SamRWD 2]

ShodanCat said:

More like "simulation tyre" for those of us who want the more realistic/less grip levels, and a "gamer tyre" for the high grip current model. But yes, I am all for having the option. Options are always good.

Let's avoid confusing names. We already have "gamer" and "simulation" options, we could make it consistent with the way game handles this currently. Obviously we would need to divide leaderboards etc, but that's another topic. I am just wondering if we would need anything else even if we lower a grip. For example we don't know if aero downforce is not too high, or if car mass is right. 

[thePanic 0]

SamRWD said:

Maybe an option to use "obsolete tyre" that gives less grip for those of us who think we need less grip, and "modern tyre" that maintains current grip levels?

ShodanCat said:

More like "simulation tyre" for those of us who want the more realistic/less grip levels, and a "gamer tyre" for the high grip current model. But yes, I am all for having the option. Options are always good.

I wouldn't mind about it but it isn't possible. The two game modes should offer a somewhat common experience so they need to blend nicely together. This way you could start with one and progress to the other without feeling it's two games in one and having to learn everything from scratch. If that could be made it would be subtle I believe the effect would be small and maybe the drama would continue

[bogani 756]

Seriously, the Subaru NR4 in Michigan in the weekly challenge, that is just a wow experience. I'm like "THIS is how a finnish road should feel like!"

Coming over the crests, feeling the weight, having confidence in the car. Just awesome.

But I still want my crisp gravel sounds back  :'(

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

I tested more in dirt fish area and some cars feel great like the M3 or the Sierra.

Maybe still a bit on the 'grippy' side but with plenty of room for attitude adjustment by load transfer and throttle inputs. It is possible to place the cars in controlled oversteer state and increase the sideslip angle just by increasing the torque. 

Realistic, beliveable and fun.

Sadly other cars, even in the same cathegory like the Stratos, suffer from unacceptable 'self braking' on the rear wheels as soon as the side slip increases, making impossible to keep the slide with power (they simply bog down). The situation may change slightly by adjusting the setup, but never reaching plausible levels.

The Alpine, for example, behaves exactly like a FWD, no matter how much it's provoked...

I truly believe ther's a decent simulation engine below the surface, but it must be unleashed by a strong revision of the physics. 

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

TBH also on the A110 it is possible to obtain some very slight power slide but at expenses of crazy turn-in and lift-off oversteer.

By summarizing, IMHO at the moment the main issues seem to be an excessive combined grip capability of the tires and an unnatural increase of rolling resistance (friction) at high side slip angles.

[Headlong 0]

OnorinoDiTanna said:

I tested more in dirt fish area and some cars feel great like the M3 or the Sierra.

Maybe still a bit on the 'grippy' side but with plenty of room for attitude adjustment by load transfer and throttle inputs. It is possible to place the cars in controlled oversteer state and increase the sideslip angle just by increasing the torque. 

Realistic, beliveable and fun.

Sadly other cars, even in the same cathegory like the Stratos, suffer from unacceptable 'self braking' on the rear wheels as soon as the side slip increases, making impossible to keep the slide with power (they simply bog down). The situation may change slightly by adjusting the setup, but never reaching plausible levels.

The Alpine, for example, behaves exactly like a FWD, no matter how much it's provoked...

I truly believe ther's a decent simulation engine below the surface, but it must be unleashed by a strong revision of the physics. 

The fact that some cars behave very realistically and others not so much would imply that it's not the physics that need a strong revision. Rather it's the cars that don't behave quite as expected that need to be looked at in terms of how they are modelled. It could be something as simple as the tyres on that particular car or the diff values are not quite right. 

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

I was meaning 'physics parameters', not the whole engine. ;)
In any case the 'good' cars are way less than the 'bad' ones and outside the dirt fish environment the results are much worse...

[Headlong 0]

OnorinoDiTanna said:

I was meaning 'physics parameters', not the whole engine. ;)
In any case the 'good' cars are way less than the 'bad' ones and outside the dirt fish environment the results are much worse...

When you say the results are much worse, in what way are they much worse?

[ShodanCat 231]

I just got done doing like 20 stages in the Sierra Cossie. I'd say it's probably the best driving car in the game (RWD, at least) right now. I'd also say it's still a little too grippy but it's basically acceptable (as in I'd be OK if it stayed how it is right now..) I'd upload some captures I did of a few stages to demonstrate but my internet would take literally 3.5 hours just to upload one stage replay. I'll probably do it overnight and share tomorrow.

One thing I've noticed is that the RWD cars that have live rear axles are the ones that are *horrible* in gravel, almost totally impossible to slide around with any degree of controllability and predictability. I think those are the Mk2 Escort, Kadett and Ascona but I might be forgetting one. The Ascona is atrocious. You can dump the clutch at redline through a corner and - I'm not exaggerating - you get no oversteer whatsoever, just the front pushing outside. Reeeeeally needs reworking.

[SamRWD 2]

versedi said:

Accro2008 said:

Nice overreaction on you part. It was more an "overall" observation, not a statement about this thread in particular.

Want some exemples, here you go they are not very hard to find :
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6glkup/people_who_complain_about_the_physics_and/?st=j3vexes6&sh=1d852ffe
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6gnesk/i_cant_believe_people_think_the_physics_in_this/?st=j3veurxc&sh=a95f9b0c

It was an overreaction so my apologise but I've got enough of this pseudo-constructive feedback. "Too much grip, its not perfect, it's arcade, not real, DR was better and "in this video, in that video". "

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

No one on this forum told you that you shouldn't have an opinion and give feedback (constructive) if you're not a rally driver. Yet you went there and started being passive-aggresive about wrc drivers on forum.

Don't link reddit posts, we're here - we're speaking about this discussion board.
 

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This. The question is:

What's the reason?

My opinion was stated before- too much grip in this case.

-You get a car to slide and as degree of car rotation vs the direction of movement increases you get more lateral grip (my guess is they try simulating how tyre bites into a gravel).

-Then suddenly car regains stability as the tyre "hits a wall" of produced lateral grip (which becomes higher than car's inertia and engine capabilities- more on that later)

- Then car  throws you into inside of a corner if you try going sidewise too much (that's because forward grip is also too high and so the car's wheel has trouble spinning in powerslide without making the car jump forward the moment lateral grip overcomes the slide).

This could be fixed by either tweaking grip levels, or cheated by increasing car weight to compensate.

This could explain why Subaru NR4 feels just right, it feels like a very heavy car in D4 and that might be the reason why it is so nice to drive. That would also explain why that particular car's engine seems struggling with producing enough power (too high grip means wheels don't spin freely when sliding or taking off the start and engine starts to have problems). I know R4 is not R5, but in real life it seems to manage a lot better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-oDRuLnJA

[MaXyMsrpl 281]

Headlong said:

OnorinoDiTanna said:

I tested more in dirt fish area and some cars feel great like the M3 or the Sierra.

Maybe still a bit on the 'grippy' side but with plenty of room for attitude adjustment by load transfer and throttle inputs. It is possible to place the cars in controlled oversteer state and increase the sideslip angle just by increasing the torque. 

Realistic, beliveable and fun.

Sadly other cars, even in the same cathegory like the Stratos, suffer from unacceptable 'self braking' on the rear wheels as soon as the side slip increases, making impossible to keep the slide with power (they simply bog down). The situation may change slightly by adjusting the setup, but never reaching plausible levels.

The Alpine, for example, behaves exactly like a FWD, no matter how much it's provoked...

I truly believe ther's a decent simulation engine below the surface, but it must be unleashed by a strong revision of the physics. 

The fact that some cars behave very realistically and others not so much would imply that it's not the physics that need a strong revision. Rather it's the cars that don't behave quite as expected that need to be looked at in terms of how they are modelled. It could be something as simple as the tyres on that particular car or the diff values are not quite right. 

Or... indeed all cars are affected by the the same issue, but those 'very realistic' have in fact enough headroom  (power/balance-wise) to overcome the limitation, therefore giving fun from driving but remains 'too easy' comparing to what t they would be in case of correct physics.
Ask your self what will happen if it is true and the issue will be resolved.

[SamRWD 2]

versedi said:

Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.


                                                     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXsOvy-WEI

SamRWD said:

Surely there is one rl video existing. Active diffs, launch control, those things are not making the car behave the way they do in Dirt 4.

How do you know that?

@KickUp  said the differentials are actually simulated now so it could be a thing.

Because the only cars I can think of who could utilise active diffs within D4 car line is Focus 2007, and.. and that's it. Dunno about 2001 cars, but I suspect those were not using active diffs yet. R5- also pretty sure they are not allowed to use those due to cost limitation by FiA. Also KickUp didn't say active diffs are simulated, he said that there is "similar kind of technology simulated" (not remembering exact quote, but he was replying to my own question, so I am sure he didn't say "active diffs are simulated").
EDIT: Sorry, I am really busy with my work during a week, but also as a reply to:
"from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game. "
It is exactly like it should be, excepy in D4 you cannot powerslide and car regains stability even without that flick of a wheel. Also I explained in previous post why you cannot produce as high degree of rotation of the car during powerslide because it tries to throw you into inside of a corner and that FORCES YOU TO COUNTER. Otherwise you would grab inside of a corner every time. I have managed to make cars go into slide by playing with car setup, but I cannot go into a deep slide, because before I reach desired rotation I get sucked into inside of a corner. I explained why that happens in previous post.
EDIT2: I also stated after DR release that that game suffered from the exact same issue. I didn't play with V2 physics TBH, so dunno if those changed anything back in DR.

[ShodanCat 231]

Oh they definitely improved significantly by the time they did the V3 handling for all the cars. It certainly wasn't without its problems, but each iteration was a YUGE improvement over the previous.

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

versedi said:

Accro2008 said:

Nice overreaction on you part. It was more an "overall" observation, not a statement about this thread in particular.

Want some exemples, here you go they are not very hard to find :
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6glkup/people_who_complain_about_the_physics_and/?st=j3vexes6&sh=1d852ffe
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/6gnesk/i_cant_believe_people_think_the_physics_in_this/?st=j3veurxc&sh=a95f9b0c

It was an overreaction so my apologise but I've got enough of this pseudo-constructive feedback. "Too much grip, its not perfect, it's arcade, not real, DR was better and "in this video, in that video". "

I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

No one on this forum told you that you shouldn't have an opinion and give feedback (constructive) if you're not a rally driver. Yet you went there and started being passive-aggresive about wrc drivers on forum.

Don't link reddit posts, we're here - we're speaking about this discussion board.
 

SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:

This. The question is:

What's the reason?

My opinion was stated before- too much grip in this case.

-You get a car to slide and as degree of car rotation vs the direction of movement increases you get more lateral grip (my guess is they try simulating how tyre bites into a gravel).

-Then suddenly car regains stability as the tyre "hits a wall" of produced lateral grip (which becomes higher than car's inertia and engine capabilities- more on that later)

- Then car  throws you into inside of a corner if you try going sidewise too much (that's because forward grip is also too high and so the car's wheel has trouble spinning in powerslide without making the car jump forward the moment lateral grip overcomes the slide).

This could be fixed by either tweaking grip levels, or cheated by increasing car weight to compensate.

Increasing the weight of the cars will result in even more friction, which will actually make the cars slide less and make them move around less easily. 

Decreasing the grip levels by a very tiny amount might help somewhat but only if done for the rear tyres. The inadvertent result of decreasing grip levels too much might be the return of the weightless feeling that we have in DR with the result that the need to actually drive the car by manipulating its weight and inertia wil be lost, at least to some degree. 

The thing that really works well now in D4 is the way the physics engine simulates the bite of the tyres into the surfaces and the way that affects the friction and inertia of the cars. Plus the tyres now behave more realistically in the sense that the transition from grip to no grip is much more realistic with the result that the cars are now much edgier and more difficult to control in a slide, just like in real life. It would be a shame to lose that. 

[ShodanCat 231]

Where are you getting this idea that cars should be very difficult to control in a slide? It should actually be pretty easy, as long as you know what you're doing. If the physics model shows up as a knife edge where the car could snap oversteer or push off the side of a cliff it's actually exaggerated.

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

Where are you getting this idea that cars should be very difficult to control in a slide? It should actually be pretty easy, as long as you know what you're doing. If the physics model shows up as a knife edge where the car could snap oversteer or push off the side of a cliff it's actually exaggerated.

I'm getting this idea from driving dirt buggies, go karts, group n rally cars and roadcars on a variety of surfaces, including gravel, sand and mud in real life. 

I'll  tell you where're you're getting your idea that cars are easy to maintain and control in a slide. You're getting it from watching drivers who are much, much ,much more skilfull than you are. Trust me, you are no Colin McRae or Sebastien Loeb and neither am I. It took me a while to accept that in my early to mid twenties, but that's just the way it is. 

[ShodanCat 231]

You're a professionally racing driver then? Nice, dude!

I gotta say though that you are, unfortunately, completely wrong at least as far as *some* of the cars are concerned. As I said above, several of the RWD cars do NOT behave as they should. You can easily cause oversteer in cars like that by just going WOT around a steady state turn... you don't need to shift weight or flick the car or anything like that. This is modeled wrong, period end of story.

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

You're a professionally racing driver then? Nice, dude!

I gotta say though that you are, unfortunately, completely wrong at least as far as *some* of the cars are concerned. As I said above, several of the RWD cars do NOT behave as they should. You can easily cause oversteer in cars like that by just going WOT around a steady state turn... you don't need to shift weight or flick the car or anything like that. This is modeled wrong, period end of story.

I'm not a professional racing driver, I was just lucky to have grown up on a farm where I could drive dirt buggies, dirt bikes and go karts. There is also a rally school not far from where I live where you can drive a group n rally car on gravel for under $500, and which I did four times. 

I can't comment on the specifics of each car, having never driven them in real life, but what I'm trying to impress on people is the fact that the cars in D4 really do behave a lot more realistically than they did in DR, particularly with regards to inertia and the the way the tyres bite and the way that friction is simulated. This is a general Comment about the physics and not the particulars of each car.

If you have the opportunity to hire a rally car, or even drive your road car on gravel do the following experiment. Get the car past 100 kph into a gentle bend kick the rear out and see what happens and how easily you'll be controlling our slide through the corner. 

My my bet is that one of the following will most likely happen: you will spin, or you will get the car into a tank slapper and you will compress the suspension, and as it uncompresses it will chuck you into the opposite direction depending on the surface bite and topography of the bend. To actually drift a car through corners like you see rally drivers do requires a tremendous amount of fitnesse, sensitivity to the surface and topography of the road and virtuoso-like throttle control. 

[ShodanCat 231]

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I've been around my share of dirt roads myself having grown up in the farmlands of Wisconsin and I've owned everything from a TT-prepped 02 Z28 to a built NA LT1 to a supercharged 5 liter Mustang to a turbocharged Thunderbird currently making 430hp to the wheels. I go sideways on asphalt on a regular basis and yeah, it's not some rare gift that only a "virtuoso" could achieve. Give me a break.

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I've been around my share of dirt roads myself having grown up in the farmlands of Wisconsin and I've owned everything from a TT-prepped 02 Z28 to a built NA LT1 to a supercharged 5 liter Mustang to a turbocharged Thunderbird currently making 430hp to the wheels. I go sideways on asphalt on a regular basis and yeah, it's not some rare gift that only a "virtuoso" could achieve. Give me a break.

So are you saying that you're having trouble going sideways in D4? Because I don't find it particularly difficult, to be honest. What has been improved from DR is the fact that slides are no longer as effortless as they were in DR. I mean come on, if you've driven sideways in real life you know it's not effortless and actually does require some measure of virtuosity. 

[ShodanCat 231]

Go ahead and upload a clip of you drifting around in the Ascona or Kadett, I'd love to be proven wrong honestly.

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

Go ahead and upload a clip of you drifting around in the Ascona or Kadett, I'd love to be proven wrong honestly.

Sorry, I don't have a YouTube account, nor could I be bothered setting one up.

Besides I don't know what that would prove, other than certain cars perhaps don't behave quite as they should. Again my comment was about the general improvements in the physics in D4, which are a major leap forward in terms of realism. 

Besides, there are plenty of vids of people getting sideways and drifting in D4 on YouTube. Even porkhammer posted one in the BMW at Michigan. He's gatting serious sideways action and he's holding drifts pretty well there.