[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[ShodanCat 231]

Wow, do you even read what I wrote? Some of the cars, most especially the M3 and Sierra Cossie do drive pretty well. I just made a post myself like a page ago where I talked about how good the Cossie drives and was able to slide it all around pretty nicely. There are some cars that are just terrible though.

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

Wow, do you even read what I wrote? Some of the cars, most especially the M3 and Sierra Cossie do drive pretty well. I just made a post myself like a page ago where I talked about how good the Cossie drives and was able to slide it all around pretty nicely. There are some cars that are just terrible though.

Ok fine, no problem. It's just that you've engaged me on a number of different issues, including where I got the idea that cars are difficult to slide and control during a slide, and so I answered. 

[gheeD 15]

Not to take away from your experience, but just as the default setups are atrociously neutral understeery shits so probably is all the cars at a rally school. 

funny that you should mention sliding a kadett on video, i actually have a video of me driving kadett around 13 years old, sadly back then i wasnt quite confident to rally it but simply learn to drive a car with it. Also it was like spring and the muddy gravel ruts were frozen solid so it wasnt very nice surface to try to slide a car

[SamRWD 2]

@Headlong

Imagine two identical long trucks. One loaded a heavy cargo, one empty. Which one brakes first? Do you know what inertia is? Is this what we have to deal with when trying to get realistic physics? 

[Flykas 3]

So after playing some more and learning to drive I came to the conclusion that we may be expecting too much and there could be no easy fix and maybe this is why Codies talked about needing new engine, because now as I see it when inertia forces are set to how it is now (low, at the center of a car ?) the car can react to the surface of the road more realistically and get draged from side to side and do unrealistic 180 degree turns, but if the make the car slide more than it cannot react to the road so well and starts to fly around It might be that they can do only one of these things. After learning to drive fast I learned that you can power slide but most of the time feels very fake and sometime it looks like the car is driving in fast forrward:] It actually sometimes feel like old Colin mcrae games (especially in sweden), but very advanced, because car is glued to the ground and slides around on its axis and you can exploit the unrealistic driving. So idk this way it feels more like a game than a sim, but respect for Codies for really trying to make it seem realistic with this engine.     

[dgeesi0 305]

@KickUp is any of the team looking at tweaking handling? based on what we saying not seen anyone from the team say anything yet. just us bleating on about what might be wrong. :D

as said previously if people have set ups that make cars work as they should could they post them please.it would help many who are playing.

ideally either two things should happen.

default set ups are changed or extra set ups are added from many of the bad ones or new handling is done.

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

@Headlong

Imagine two identical long trucks. One loaded a heavy cargo, one empty. Which one brakes first? Do you know what inertia is? Is this what we have to deal with when trying to get realistic physics? 

I do know what inertia is. I just don't know what your point is. 

[Headlong 0]

dgeesi0 said:

@KickUp is any of the team looking at tweaking handling? based on what we saying not seen anyone from the team say anything yet. just us bleating on about what might be wrong. :D

as said previously if people have set ups that make cars work as they should could they post them please.it would help many who are playing.

ideally either two things should happen.

default set ups are changed or extra set ups are added from many of the bad ones or new handling is done.

The message from the devs is loud and clear: there is nothing wrong with the physics. Some of the older cars might need to be tweaked, but this needs to be done from feedback and data derived from testing and actual drivers. Beyond that there is nothing to be done.

[dgeesi0 305]

ive not seen anything recent only the show on facebook which was on release day.most of the feedback has been after.

im sure stuff will be tweaked.its just when its such a iconic car as the subaru that is not right i hope so.its one of the iconic cars of rally.

[chukonu 476]

We really need the Steam Workshop to share setups and such. Sharing with friends in-game is nice but I wanna crawl the workshop and get some nice setups that just work. Then we can all try the same thing and share our thoughts on how the physics feel.

[Headlong 0]

dgeesi0 said:

ive not seen anything recent only the show on facebook which was on release day.most of the feedback has been after.

im sure stuff will be tweaked.its just when its such a iconic car as the subaru that is not right i hope so.its one of the iconic cars of rally.

If stuff does get tweaked it will be done in a "scientific way" and not because the devs succumb to someone's opinion that there should be less grip or because of someone's complaint that they can't drive a particular car the way they see a pro driver drive it on YouTube. 

[dgeesi0 305]

are you someone elses account in disguise ? :D

the subaru handles wrong.nothing to do with someone on youtube.i could post pics of our subarus since legacy rs days but thats not going to solve the car not behaving correctly.

[slimleo 0]

As Paul has stated they are well aware of the issues and they also know that it's not the actual grip that's too high but something that feels for us like it was the grip. (Maybe Codies know all the things pointed out in this thread and even more already) The problem will be that the devs have to sit down with real life rally drivers (again) which will take time and money. Since the game is already released I'm not sure  if they will put that much of effort into it and just come up with a patch in the next few months to solve this. 

[Headlong 0]

chukonu said:

We really need the Steam Workshop to share setups and such. Sharing with friends in-game is nice but I wanna crawl the workshop and get some nice setups that just work. Then we can all try the same thing and share our thoughts on how the physics feel.

That's a good idea. In fact, we need to wait for people to familiarise themselves with the setups and experiment with all the parameters to see the effects they all have. 

But above all, we need to wait people to learn to drive properly before listening to their input with regard to the physics and handling. 

[Flykas 3]

Headlong said:

chukonu said:

We really need the Steam Workshop to share setups and such. Sharing with friends in-game is nice but I wanna crawl the workshop and get some nice setups that just work. Then we can all try the same thing and share our thoughts on how the physics feel.

That's a good idea. In fact, we need to wait for people to familiarise themselves with the setups and experiment with all the parameters to see the effects they all have. 

But above all, we need to wait people to learn to drive properly before listening to their input with regard to the physics and handling. 

So when you can consider yourself as driving properly ? After placing 1st in few championships with subaru impreza STI physics feels even less realistic and to drive fast you have to exploit the unrealistic physics, it's just that there are allways moments which look really realistic. 

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

So in order to decide if MarioKart is realistic we should dominate its leaderboards? :smiley:

[SamRWD 2]

@@Headlong
My point is if what you wrote about friction and weight was true, the heavier the car the quicker it would stop. Along the friction other factors change in real life that make that statement not true.  

The best way to observe how things are wrong are low speed corners on wet Wales. It should be easy to throw a car into a corner with no handbrake using only weight balance and brakes. In D4 you need a lot of speed, and that is why someone wrote it feels like the car is driving in fast forward. It's because especially the low speed behavior feels off. 

[battfinkz 34]

You don't need alot of speed, im throwing cars around wales sideways without any issues, in fact, im struggling to get the group b cars around at all

I think alot of the issues people think they are having is purely down to the default tunes in alot of the cars, and the fact that your tuning ability is affected by your team score.

Some of the default tunes are ridiculous, some cars even have completely locked diffs at default. A bit of tuning changes the cars with issues, i would suggest getting the diffs and camber set up to allow the car to change direction quicker with an opened up rear end, im scandanavian flicking around slower corners with ease now. Lol

Although i would definitely agree theres an issue with the 2001 scooby, i cant get that rear end to free up

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

@@Headlong
My point is if what you wrote about friction and weight was true, the heavier the car the quicker it would stop. Along the friction other factors change in real life that make that statement not true.  

The best way to observe how things are wrong are low speed corners on wet Wales. It should be easy to throw a car into a corner with no handbrake using only weight balance and brakes. In D4 you need a lot of speed, and that is why someone wrote it feels like the car is driving in fast forward. It's because especially the low speed behavior feels off. 

What I wrote about friction is true. The more weight pushing down on an object the greater the friction. Your example with the trucks talks about a different situation. What I was taking about was getting the car sideways so that it is positioned more or less perpendicular to the direction of travel. The heavier the car the more friction there will be and the more it will dig into the gravel and the faster it will come to a halt. That's all. 

[SamRWD 2]

@Headlong
Except that's not all, because there are other factors such as inertia. Unless you go with something unrelated like a deep dessert like gravel heavier car takes longer distance to brake in rallying. That's basic knowledge. I would go as far as saying it's common sense! 

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

@Headlong
Except that's not all, because there are other factors such as inertia. Unless you go with something unrelated like a deep dessert like gravel heavier car takes longer distance to brake in rallying. That's basic knowledge. I would go as far as saying it's common sense! 

It's common sense that a heavier car will dig its tyres deeper into a gravel or snow surface than a light car. It's also common sense that narrow tyres will dig in more than wider ones. It's also common sense that adding weight to a car increases its inertia and makes it more difficult to change its direction, thus making it less nimble. That's why I suggested that adding weight to the cars in D4 would not be a good idea in my original response. 

[SamRWD 2]

So increasing car weight increases brake distance after all? 
Do you also agree it affects the lateral grip just the same way? 
If so I was right in what I wrote in my post to begin with... 

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

So increasing car weight increases brake distance after all? 
Do you also agree it affects the lateral grip just the same way? 
If so I was right in what I wrote in my post to begin with... 

I didn't say you were wrong. I said your example wasn't quite apt enough to apply to the point I was trying to get across. 

[SamRWD 2]

I will quote your and mine posts when I get back home, atm I am using my smartphone and it pain in the... 
Increasing weight will make cars move around more when throwing car around (the way we do in game; we use car weight a lot ) , not less. That's  because it lessens tyre  grip efficiency... 

[Headlong 0]

SamRWD said:

I will quote your and mine posts when I get back home, atm I am using my smartphone and it pain in the... 
Increasing weight will make cars move around more when throwing car around (the way we do in game; we use car weight a lot ) , not less. That's  because it lessens tyre  grip efficiency... 

More weight equals equals more inertia. So to to change the direction of travel of an object with more inertia you would need more grip from the tyres. The thing that people have been complaining about is understeer. If the object weighs more it has more inertia and you would  need more grip from the tyres to first slow it down and to then change its trajectory. Or you would need to slow it down to a lower speed than a lighter object to change its trajectory in the same way. That's what I was trying to convey.