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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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I like that car now are more agile and sensitive and udersteer seems to be improved.  Overall driving mechanics seems to be more advanced, but it is then ruined by hyper grip and lack of inertia. This is why that "flyppy-floppy" behavior happens I think, I hope that it could be fixed by allowing the car slide more...

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Having put another few hours into the game, I've got to say there is also a lot that is just right. I really don't think DiRT 4 will need a physics overhaul like we saw with DiRT Rally.

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chukonu said:
Having put another few hours into the game, I've got to say there is also a lot that is just right. I really don't think DiRT 4 will need a physics overhaul like we saw with DiRT Rally.

Yes, many cars have great handling. I avoided FWD like plague in Dirt Rally but in D4 I really enjoy them, mostly the two Peugeots. The 306 is a raging beast! No problems with the AWDs I tried so far: the Delta Integrale, the Evo X, and the 2001 Impreza are very fun to drive. Especially the Subbie, I had a Welsh Championship with it and I've enjoyed every second of it!

I think only the RWDs need some tweaks and improvement, they don't feel as natural as other cars in the game or their previous iterations in Dirt Rally. I think we are really, really close to perfection,to Rally Heaven: a complete overhaul would make more troubles than improvement. Just some minor tweaks are needed, really. :)

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I honestly think they could just turn down the gravel traction by like 50-70% and it would probably be pretty close to just right. Really wish we had access to the files that define some of this stuff for experimentation, but I guess we'll just have to hope Codies hears the feedback and has people on-hand who can test their changes before release (and not just gamepad gamers who don't really know anything about rally physics.)

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ShodanCat said:
I honestly think they could just turn down the gravel traction by like 50-70% and it would probably be pretty close to just right. Really wish we had access to the files that define some of this stuff for experimentation, but I guess we'll just have to hope Codies hears the feedback and has people on-hand who can test their changes before release (and not just gamepad gamers who don't really know anything about rally physics.)
Ohhh 50 to 70%, really? That's way too much.

I agree with the excessive grip discussion, but it's really not that much. Look how Kalle Rovanperäs Skoda R5 grips to a stage similar to Michigan.
https://youtu.be/rSYgJWQc_Mw


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See, this is why physics discussions can be so frustrating to me - you say "here, look at this video and see how much grip there is," I watch it and to me it's only proving my point! You can clearly see how nearly every corner, even slight, the car tends to oversteer, and the tendency only increases the faster they go. It's actually a really good example of how OFF Dirt 4 is in this regard.

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Constructive Feedback think positive think positive Right, the only positive is the stage editor as it has a massive replay value with endless new stages to challenge our driving skills, that aside the boring mundane vista less ravine cliff edge less lakeside mountain terrain less stages will soon start to grind,   I know after the spoils of DR this game was aimed for the masses and diluted to  accommodate the casual gamer but I'm afraid if CM don't make DR2 we will be waiting another decade or so for another rally sim.Sorry if I've posted in the wrong place but had to give my opinion as for the physics model the weight transfer under acceleration  and decelloration is wrong and the cars have to much downforce.

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They should release a test build so we can see if it really is about a grip. I personally realised today that I don't feel any fun from driving Dirt 4 in it's current form. It is just frustrating. Unlocking stuff and collecting credits to buy new cars is not enough if every corner feels akward. I would say 50- 70% would be a good starting point. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOREacQMQjw

(and other- just google wrc aeral footage and then compare it to D4 helicopter view; in Rally Poland 2016 WRC footage from day one there was a very nice video showing racing lines and breaking distances)

Also we need to keep in mind that RL cars can slide more than we see in the footage, it is the driver who makes a decision to put this or this much of a slide. Right now the max we can slide is just a short distance, and then car regains grip no matter what, even on low speed when there is next to aeral downforce.  Lancia 037 is an extreme example.

Another quesion is how could this physics get released and claimed to be realistic. Either we are being lied, or Codies have no idea how to do their job. Just look at RX- if rallying was realistic, then all RX teams would use rally cars because they don't slide at all.

Anyways- I trully regret buying this game, I will never fall for marketing claims no more. Codies, or not apparently business is business and all tricks are allowed to convince people to pay for a game.

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And that right there is how you turn constructive criticism into pointless dev bashing.

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Driving, for me, feels so wrong because of way too much vibration in my thrmaster TX wheel. Is it possible to turn it off, but still keep force feedback?

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blodhevn said:
Driving, for me, feels so wrong because of way too much vibration in my thrmaster TX wheel. Is it possible to turn it off, but still keep force feedback?
Ofcourse! Turn down your Tyre Slip and Suspension settings - check out if it works and let us know. 

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Scyy said:
And that right there is how you turn constructive criticism into pointless dev bashing.
You are right, I might have wrote that too harshly. But there is no communication going on, and Paul himself said during recent stream that he feels happy about how modern rally cars behave in D4. I just feel so bitter by the D4 experience. 
That being said I will do my best to keep some thoughts to myself.
EDIT: BTW I haven't said anything you won't find on any racing/ rally oriented forum. 

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versedi said:
blodhevn said:
Driving, for me, feels so wrong because of way too much vibration in my thrmaster TX wheel. Is it possible to turn it off, but still keep force feedback?
Ofcourse! Turn down your Tyre Slip and Suspension settings - check out if it works and let us know. 
Thx, I'll try that later. Can't remember that I had this "problem" in Dirt Rally, was there a "turn vibration off"-option i that game?

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This post is mostly about gravel since it's the surface I have played the most, I play on a wheel (t300rs) and have around 10 hours in Dirt 4 (simulation, no driving aids).
I made the big mistake of setting up my first stage in dirt 4 with the escort mk2 in Wales, after the intro stage and the Dirt Acadamy; I was quite disappointed by the result. Then i experimented most cars/class on gravel (Michigan and Wales). 

It just feels very strange, the only way to induce oversteer in the car is to use left foot braking, using a bank (which sometimes result in a weird immediate spin) or the handbrake. There is no way to powerslide out of a corner even after setup adjustement.
The cars mostly feel like they are lacking momentum on gravel, almost like there is no pendulum effect and that only the front axle is allowed to move if the car is not breaking, even with a very oversteery setup. 
Also, I have not really experienced any change when the weather is different, in wet conditions the car overral just feels the same.
(Another thing that is not helping is that some car setups are understeer induced.)

Some quality onboard footage with Tom Cave if someone want to do a comparison with Dirt 4 (more on his youtube channel) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5gyjFNStKA
Fiesta r5 in wet conditions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW_yobkRwNI
i20 r5 in dry conditions

I'm not an official paid rally driver but i hope the input is helping, and hopefully that this issue can be fixed without much trouble. 
English is not my first language, sorry if my explanations are not clear, Thank you for reading.

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I don´t really have a feeling for the cars, which means to me the force feedback is to low, even on the highest point (150).
A few weeks ago i was able to test PCARS2 with the new Supercar Lites in it. And i can tell you that, the feeling of the car was really good, because i was feeling the weight of it and so i was able to react to it´s movement. In Dirt4 "sadly" i don´t feel it, which makes the driving for me really weird.
And the Kitcars on tarmac to me have no grip at all, even when i´m not on the gas and just let them role through the corners.

P.S. I´m driving on PC with a G29.  

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SamRWD said:

(and other- just google wrc aeral footage and then compare it to D4 helicopter view; in Rally Poland 2016 WRC footage from day one there was a very nice video showing racing lines and breaking distances)


[EDIT] So I just posted a long response to this and my entire reply was omitted from the message. Oh well, can't even get the forums to work correctly [/EDIT]

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Accro2008 said:
This post is mostly about gravel since it's the surface I have played the most, I play on a wheel (t300rs) and have around 10 hours in Dirt 4 (simulation, no driving aids).
I made the big mistake of setting up my first stage in dirt 4 with the escort mk2 in Wales, after the intro stage and the Dirt Acadamy; I was quite disappointed by the result. Then i experimented most cars/class on gravel (Michigan and Wales). 

It just feels very strange, the only way to induce oversteer in the car is to use left foot braking, using a bank (which sometimes result in a weird immediate spin) or the handbrake. There is no way to powerslide out of a corner even after setup adjustement.
The cars mostly feel like they are lacking momentum on gravel, almost like there is no pendulum effect and that only the front axle is allowed to move if the car is not breaking, even with a very oversteery setup. 
Also, I have not really experienced any change when the weather is different, in wet conditions the car overral just feels the same.
(Another thing that is not helping is that some car setups are understeer induced.)

Some quality onboard footage with Tom Cave if someone want to do a comparison with Dirt 4 (more on his youtube channel) :
Fiesta r5 in wet conditions
i20 r5 in dry conditions

I'm not an official paid rally driver but i hope the input is helping, and hopefully that this issue can be fixed without much trouble. 
English is not my first language, sorry if my explanations are not clear, Thank you for reading.
Excelent examples! 
It even comes with straightforward example of how breaking works  https://youtu.be/zW_yobkRwNI?t=12s 0:12 in shows breaking into a slow left hand corner, devs can use that to measure breaking distance and modift grip and car mass to take this much for the car to deacelerate)

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SamRWD said:
Accro2008 said:
This post is mostly about gravel since it's the surface I have played the most, I play on a wheel (t300rs) and have around 10 hours in Dirt 4 (simulation, no driving aids).
I made the big mistake of setting up my first stage in dirt 4 with the escort mk2 in Wales, after the intro stage and the Dirt Acadamy; I was quite disappointed by the result. Then i experimented most cars/class on gravel (Michigan and Wales). 

It just feels very strange, the only way to induce oversteer in the car is to use left foot braking, using a bank (which sometimes result in a weird immediate spin) or the handbrake. There is no way to powerslide out of a corner even after setup adjustement.
The cars mostly feel like they are lacking momentum on gravel, almost like there is no pendulum effect and that only the front axle is allowed to move if the car is not breaking, even with a very oversteery setup. 
Also, I have not really experienced any change when the weather is different, in wet conditions the car overral just feels the same.
(Another thing that is not helping is that some car setups are understeer induced.)

Some quality onboard footage with Tom Cave if someone want to do a comparison with Dirt 4 (more on his youtube channel) :
Fiesta r5 in wet conditions
i20 r5 in dry conditions

I'm not an official paid rally driver but i hope the input is helping, and hopefully that this issue can be fixed without much trouble. 
English is not my first language, sorry if my explanations are not clear, Thank you for reading.
Excelent examples! 
It even comes with straightforward example of how breaking works  https://youtu.be/zW_yobkRwNI?t=12s 0:12 in shows breaking into a slow left hand corner, devs can use that to measure breaking distance and modift grip and car mass to take this much for the car to deacelerate)

How do you want to use it as measure distance? Do you know if the driver was driving it safe and braked earlier or was pushing and made a really late braking? 

How do you want to measure distance in such high FOV footage? 

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One piece of feedback I want to add that's actually positive is that my force feedback with G27 (PC version) is superb. I really like it. I tweaked self aligning torque up and suspension a bit to 120 and the feel through the wheel is just excellent. If they can get the actual physics/grip model in line, they could have something really special.

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versedi said:
SamRWD said:
Accro2008 said:
This post is mostly about gravel since it's the surface I have played the most, I play on a wheel (t300rs) and have around 10 hours in Dirt 4 (simulation, no driving aids).
I made the big mistake of setting up my first stage in dirt 4 with the escort mk2 in Wales, after the intro stage and the Dirt Acadamy; I was quite disappointed by the result. Then i experimented most cars/class on gravel (Michigan and Wales). 

It just feels very strange, the only way to induce oversteer in the car is to use left foot braking, using a bank (which sometimes result in a weird immediate spin) or the handbrake. There is no way to powerslide out of a corner even after setup adjustement.
The cars mostly feel like they are lacking momentum on gravel, almost like there is no pendulum effect and that only the front axle is allowed to move if the car is not breaking, even with a very oversteery setup. 
Also, I have not really experienced any change when the weather is different, in wet conditions the car overral just feels the same.
(Another thing that is not helping is that some car setups are understeer induced.)

Some quality onboard footage with Tom Cave if someone want to do a comparison with Dirt 4 (more on his youtube channel) :
Fiesta r5 in wet conditions
i20 r5 in dry conditions

I'm not an official paid rally driver but i hope the input is helping, and hopefully that this issue can be fixed without much trouble. 
English is not my first language, sorry if my explanations are not clear, Thank you for reading.
Excelent examples! 
It even comes with straightforward example of how breaking works  https://youtu.be/zW_yobkRwNI?t=12s 0:12 in shows breaking into a slow left hand corner, devs can use that to measure breaking distance and modift grip and car mass to take this much for the car to deacelerate)

How do you want to use it as measure distance? Do you know if the driver was driving it safe and braked earlier or was pushing and made a really late braking? 

How do you want to measure distance in such high FOV footage? 
Codemasters are pros, so either they will find aeral footage to measure, or use this footage as estimate. If it cannot be used as precise data, it can be at least used with conjuction with other onboards avaliable on YT to eliminate driver performance/ approach making a difference. I already posted other onboards in old Dirt Rally releated thread, so if anyone is reading forums they already had much more input from me at least. No rally driver is capable of breaking as quickly as we can in Dirt 4 including Ogier, or Latvala. I am talking about just pressing the brake to lock the wheels, not any kind of proper braking technique those real world drivers use- if there is such a difference between real life footage and game behaviour there is no excuse to call that accurate grip level. 
As always I challange you to do a simple test- speed up on a straight piece of Wales and just slam that brake- focus on where you press a brake and where the car fully stops. Use R5 car as it seems to be the class they feel the most confident about (by they I mean Codemasters). In Dirt Rally that distance was actually even shorter, I think this is one of areas where Dirt 4 is indeed an improvement, but is still not accurate at all (from my experience with Dirt 4, Subaru NR4 is the most accurate in this particular area).
As for measuring distance in high FOV footage- like I said you don't have to know how many meters it takes, you just need to notice where drivers start breaking, then where they stop, afterwards rewind a video to the moment before  braking starts and you can even take a screenshot marking those two points using reference points next to the road.
I cannot recommend enough watching WRC reviews from last two seasons, they started to use drone footage to compare drivers performance a lot recently, that's the best we have given there is not that much usefull videos comming from ERC where R5 cars are used. I am not working for Codemasters, but if I was that's what I would use as starting point. Then RL drivers they have access to could narrow that even closer to real life. I don't know if Dirt engine uses lookup tables (like FSX does in flight sim realm), or uses some kind of advanced real time calculated physics engine (like Xplane does again in flight sim realm). If devs would want to interact with us more on that topic, I would be more than happy to help with a research, but right now we know to little to be able to feed them with usefull feedback.
I am happy to discuss this further, it would be nice if someone from Codies would get involved.

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Tried out the old Escort on gravel, the feeling of the car is just bad. It's either understeer or snap oversteer and pretty much nothing inbetween. In DiRT Rally the 70's cars were really fun to drive with the way you could just slide them around the corners and do it very predictably. Here it just feels weird.
Rallycross, on the other hand, feels superb

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Didzis said:
Tried out the old Escort on gravel, the feeling of the car is just bad. It's either understeer or snap oversteer and pretty much nothing inbetween. In DiRT Rally the 70's cars were really fun to drive with the way you could just slide them around the corners and do it very predictably. Here it just feels weird.
Rallycross, on the other hand, feels superb
Yep, I just got out of doing pretty much the same activities, trying the Escort on Australia stages followed by my first go at RX events. The Escort is just no fun. The ONLY oversteer you get is *snap.* You should be able to control your direction a lot just by throttle inputs.

Now RX is another matter entirely it seems. Lots of fun there. Still probably a little exaggerated in terms of grip, but it's not slap-you-in-the-face levels of absurdity on gravel/dirt rally stages.

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ShodanCat said:
See, this is why physics discussions can be so frustrating to me - you say "here, look at this video and see how much grip there is," I watch it and to me it's only proving my point! You can clearly see how nearly every corner, even slight, the car tends to oversteer, and the tendency only increases the faster they go. It's actually a really good example of how OFF Dirt 4 is in this regard.
I did say I agree with the too much grip discussion, and yes, the car oversteers but you want do decrease the grip by 70%? Maybe if  they used a crappy brand of street tires on the rally cars, yes.

I'd say 15-20% but I'm sure you won't agree.

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SamRWD said:

Codemasters are pros, so either they will find aeral footage to measure, or use this footage as estimate. If it cannot be used as precise data, it can be at least used with conjuction with other onboards avaliable on YT to eliminate driver performance/ approach making a difference. I already posted other onboards in old Dirt Rally releated thread, so if anyone is reading forums they already had much more input from me at least. No rally driver is capable of breaking as quickly as we can in Dirt 4 including Ogier, or Latvala. I am talking about just pressing the brake to lock the wheels, not any kind of proper braking technique those real world drivers use- if there is such a difference between real life footage and game behaviour there is no excuse to call that accurate grip level. 
As always I challange you to do a simple test- speed up on a straight piece of Wales and just slam that brake- focus on where you press a brake and where the car fully stops. Use R5 car as it seems to be the class they feel the most confident about (by they I mean Codemasters). In Dirt Rally that distance was actually even shorter, I think this is one of areas where Dirt 4 is indeed an improvement, but is still not accurate at all (from my experience with Dirt 4, Subaru NR4 is the most accurate in this particular area).
As for measuring distance in high FOV footage- like I said you don't have to know how many meters it takes, you just need to notice where drivers start breaking, then where they stop, afterwards rewind a video to the moment before  braking starts and you can even take a screenshot marking those two points using reference points next to the road.
I cannot recommend enough watching WRC reviews from last two seasons, they started to use drone footage to compare drivers performance a lot recently, that's the best we have given there is not that much usefull videos comming from ERC where R5 cars are used. I am not working for Codemasters, but if I was that's what I would use as starting point. Then RL drivers they have access to could narrow that even closer to real life. I don't know if Dirt engine uses lookup tables (like FSX does in flight sim realm), or uses some kind of advanced real time calculated physics engine (like Xplane does again in flight sim realm). If devs would want to interact with us more on that topic, I would be more than happy to help with a research, but right now we know to little to be able to feed them with usefull feedback.
I am happy to discuss this further, it would be nice if someone from Codies would get involved.
Big wall of text with nothing constructive.

1. You're comparing WRC cars from recent years to what we have in game, ekhem. I don't see any. Speeds have changed.
2. Try braking from in a real down hill situation. You'll probably change your mind. The braking distance is not really that off compared to real life. 
3. You'll say "too much grip" but only one or two persons actually said way, how it feels.
I want you to perform a "grip test". 
Take FWD [Kit car, Pug 306]  on gravel, try starting with 100% throttle applied. GRIP is not the issue here. It's something and else. Try it out yourself.


/E: I don't want to sound rude. It's just something people don't see. You can't just tweak the grip how you say - make it 75% less grippy. FWD wouldn't drive unless you'd be starting from 3rd gear then. 

/E2: I have a long list of notes that I'll do my official feedback uppon on, but I'm certainly sure the grip is not the issue, the rear part of car "grip" (which isn't really grip) is an outcome of few other things. 

/E3: I've played 21 hours now, 7 from it with Telemetry Tool enabled. 

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