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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Nice. At first we all agreed there is too much grip. But any attempt to give examples are bounced back with comment 'it's not enough' or 'it's not constructive'. Could you guys ( @versedi  and @bogani  )  make it clear on what side you actually are?
I don't get the reason you are trying to diss anybody who is trying to give some references/ideas which in comparison to D4 shows flaws of the last.
Maybe it's better to take low profile giving no feedback. Finally nobody of us is in duty do do CM's job.

bogani said:
ShodanCat said:
See, this is why physics discussions can be so frustrating to me - you say "here, look at this video and see how much grip there is," I watch it and to me it's only proving my point! You can clearly see how nearly every corner, even slight, the car tends to oversteer, and the tendency only increases the faster they go. It's actually a really good example of how OFF Dirt 4 is in this regard.
I did say I agree with the too much grip discussion, and yes, the car oversteers but you want do decrease the grip by 70%? Maybe if  they used a crappy brand of street tires on the rally cars, yes.

I'd say 15-20% but I'm sure you won't agree.
15-20% only to get cars behaviour in regard to how real drivers throw the cars (but I'm not even sure it's enough). But they drive safe. They doesn't throw cars to physical limits like we do, sitting in front of monitors (not speaking about they do not exploit physics like we do). To mimic real world physics, cars should have much much less grip, providing margin between safe/confident driving and real physical limits.
At the end, simulation is not about deal between you and me, or us and CM. Simulation is about simulate behaviours like in real world. So it's about measuing and applying of proper equations.

versedi said:

/E: I don't want to sound rude. It's just something people don't see. You can't just tweak the grip how you say - make it 75% less grippy. FWD wouldn't drive unless you'd be starting from 3rd gear then.
It's true what you say. I could mention lateral vs longitudinal grip. Too high lateral grip could cause lifting of inside wheels (described by another forum member) with all its consequences. However the complexity of this issue and real cause might be beyond what we are able to discuss.

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No worries about sounding rude.

Back on the topic. I am not going to solve all problems for Codies. There is footage on YT. Even if there was nothing but WRC, they can make internal build where they can test on WRC and then modify for it R5 (unless you are trying to say they didn't do just that with current lineup and that they had access to every car in a game, or even every class in a game and could model them specifcally). There are possibilities, I cannot give a solution, this is not responsibility of MINE. In the end they can even ask, or buy onboards from some R5 driver, or record video themselves with a drone.

Here is an example of what I meant by usefull footage (yes, another WRC, first one is Poland 2016 I mentioned before):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygHIDiiAGR8

Please notice how Camili can powerslide out of the corner . I watched ERC footage, especially last season and R5 doesn't have any problem with lack of power to powerslide either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gQq6QzVjNw

Another aeral WRC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RwBnZexZQ

I uploaded a quick test I did (took way too much time to edit and upload, I am busy with my work). First I tried simply pressing the brake, but the car spins around at some point with default setup, so next try I worked the car a bit in most places, and here is what I got (HD version probably is getting processed):

https://youtu.be/S4hBfAyJQQo 

 I would love to compare it to RL, if anyone has onboard of Fiesta R5 in dry conditions from one of GB rallies, please give me a link.

As for FWD the only car I have experience driving in D4 was Fiesta R2, I hate FWD and never drive it in any sim, so I don't have much to comment. If the grip is right in FWD and wrong in AWD, it means physics are not consistent. AKA wrong.

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After doing more testing of Sim-mode with Rally cars, I really suspect that some function of assist's is acting as a form of stability control to straighten the car out when it begins to slide. This occurs independently of the steering to some extent and masks itself as being grip-related. If I attempt to hang the tail out by inducing a big slide, the car will self-correct and settle back to a neutral point very quickly - it feels as if it pivots in the middle - no matter if it's FWD or AWD and feels totally unnatural. The more I tried to dial the behavior out with the setup, the stranger things got and I really think it comes down to some bug that got through testing because the behavior just makes no sense and I believe Codies know how to make Rally work really well.

Dirt Rally had it's issues but, it was fun and made sense in how the cars behaved aside from a few cases or extremes but, the in-flight physics seem much better in D4 and the title could be great fun once some issues are sorted. I sense physics improvements and refinement are at the core but, the current behavior is too strange to accept as representing Simulation - weather by comparison to other titles or RL driving.

The RallyX cars felt much better as did the buggies I tried so far. I like the game a lot but, the handling in Sim mode just doesn't feel right at all as it stands.

Controllers: Steering - AccuForce Pro / Pedals - CST F1 / Shifter - Fanatec SSQ / Hand-Brake - DSD Hydraulic

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Slowish said:
After doing more testing of Sim-mode with Rally cars, I really suspect that some function of assist's is acting as a form of stability control to straighten the car out when it begins to slide. This occurs independently of the steering to some extent and masks itself as being grip-related. If I attempt to hang the tail out by inducing a big slide, the car will self-correct and settle back to a neutral point very quickly - it feels as if it pivots in the middle - no matter if it's FWD or AWD and feels totally unnatural. The more I tried to dial the behavior out with the setup, the stranger things got and I really think it comes down to some bug that got through testing because the behavior just makes no sense and I believe Codies know how to make Rally work really well.
I completely agree with this observation. There is definitely some fake yaw torque being applied when you're counter steering. The most obvious is when you're accelerating out of the corner, sliding a bit. Your rear tires are already working as hard as they can, so no more lateral force can be asked of them. BUT, if you even counter steer a little bit, you'll see the rear end gets kicked in line by some mysterious extra grip out of thin air.

None of this happens in DR. If you counter steer out of a corner, the car is straightened by having the front move towards the outside, not by the butt getting kicked towards the inside.

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Just seems to regain traction too easily to me, as if the rears grip on before the front.

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yoyoML said:
Slowish said:
After doing more testing of Sim-mode with Rally cars, I really suspect that some function of assist's is acting as a form of stability control to straighten the car out when it begins to slide. This occurs independently of the steering to some extent and masks itself as being grip-related. If I attempt to hang the tail out by inducing a big slide, the car will self-correct and settle back to a neutral point very quickly - it feels as if it pivots in the middle - no matter if it's FWD or AWD and feels totally unnatural. The more I tried to dial the behavior out with the setup, the stranger things got and I really think it comes down to some bug that got through testing because the behavior just makes no sense and I believe Codies know how to make Rally work really well.
I completely agree with this observation. There is definitely some fake yaw torque being applied when you're counter steering. The most obvious is when you're accelerating out of the corner, sliding a bit. Your rear tires are already working as hard as they can, so no more lateral force can be asked of them. BUT, if you even counter steer a little bit, you'll see the rear end gets kicked in line by some mysterious extra grip out of thin air.

None of this happens in DR. If you counter steer out of a corner, the car is straightened by having the front move towards the outside, not by the butt getting kicked towards the inside.
That would be really bad, because we've been told D4 was not dumbed down in sim mode. Ideally we would be given a chance to mod all parameters by ourselves (I wouldn't mind such modification preventing me from joining multiplayer).

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsTrGQTEir8
It's so obvious... Just look at a) the corner exits where he straightens, and b) left-right-lefts. Every time the butt tucks in before the front changes direction. And it's on wet gravel.

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chukonu said:
Just seems to regain traction too easily to me, as if the rears grip on before the front.
And with some cars (RWD classics) its hard to induce wheelspin. I've took the Stratos for a Wales testdrive and it launched from standing like its having some kind of traction controll. Wheelspin was  almost hard to notice. I think that a Ferrari V6 should has more than enough torque to overspin the wheels even in dry asphalt - and on loose surface even more so! That car was a dangerous beast to drive, just a few top drivers were able to bring its power to the road. In D4 it doesnt seem to be such a monster. (And I'm not Sandro Munari :)

   I'd like to point it out that it's not the case with all cars: most AWDs and FWDs feel OK and real to me. I hope the dev team will reply to our concerns.

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yoyoML said:

It's so obvious... Just look at a) the corner exits where he straightens, and b) left-right-lefts. Every time the butt tucks in before the front changes direction. And it's on wet gravel.
If it's so obvious explain to me the forces working in x-y-z axis that does that, where the weight of the car is and how it transfers to the actual grip.

For me, most of you're talking general nonsense without actual facts. 

Start thinking with AXIS, and SIMULATION aspects and not too much grip, too easy to counter. These are general statements. 

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SamRWD said:
yoyoML said:
Slowish said:
After doing more testing of Sim-mode with Rally cars, I really suspect that some function of assist's is acting as a form of stability control to straighten the car out when it begins to slide. This occurs independently of the steering to some extent and masks itself as being grip-related. If I attempt to hang the tail out by inducing a big slide, the car will self-correct and settle back to a neutral point very quickly - it feels as if it pivots in the middle - no matter if it's FWD or AWD and feels totally unnatural. The more I tried to dial the behavior out with the setup, the stranger things got and I really think it comes down to some bug that got through testing because the behavior just makes no sense and I believe Codies know how to make Rally work really well.
I completely agree with this observation. There is definitely some fake yaw torque being applied when you're counter steering. The most obvious is when you're accelerating out of the corner, sliding a bit. Your rear tires are already working as hard as they can, so no more lateral force can be asked of them. BUT, if you even counter steer a little bit, you'll see the rear end gets kicked in line by some mysterious extra grip out of thin air.

None of this happens in DR. If you counter steer out of a corner, the car is straightened by having the front move towards the outside, not by the butt getting kicked towards the inside.
That would be really bad, because we've been told D4 was not dumbed down in sim mode. Ideally we would be given a chance to mod all parameters by ourselves (I wouldn't mind such modification preventing me from joining multiplayer).
It doesn't have to be intentional, bugs get through testing or mistakes are made. I've seen similar things happen with other sims - including assists staying enabled when they shouldn't - more than once.

Let's wait and see what the dev team says before anyone reaches for the pitchforks. After that, if they don't correct course . . . get 'em!
 jk :)

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Whatever the actual reason of a problem (hidden forced assist, or grip) I think Codies have a busy week ahead. Looking at other forums people expect actions to be taken to resolve problem. I hope devs will talk about the whole thing.

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SamRWD said:
Whatever the actual reason of a problem (hidden forced assist, or grip) I think Codies have a busy week ahead. Looking at other forums people expect actions to be taken to resolve problem. I hope devs will talk about the whole thing.
I don't hope, I'm sure they will IF as stated in DiRT Show at launch day, there will be enough of actual constructive criticism, rather than TOO MUCH GRIP, IT'S BAD, GIVE DIRT RALLY 2. 

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versedi said:
ShodanCat said:
Thank you! Yeah, I've tried tuning in all the various ways that typically create a looser, more tail-happy car. In some cars they do make a slight difference, but it's nowhere near enough. You can somewhat improve some of the 4WD cars that have adjustable torque bias by putting it to the rear as much as possible, but again, it's not enough to really change the situation. The RWD cars are just hopeless, though. Even the Stratos exhibits the same strange behavior as the Kadett.

One thing I forgot to add was that the Group B 4WD cars like the Delta S4 can actually be kind of fun to drive, because they actually have enough horsepower to blast through the hyper-grip of the gravel at times.. but they still also exhibit the "inside wheels lift, diffs open, slide ends" behavior I described above, just less often because like I said, they can sometimes send all 4 wheels into orbit at max effort.
More people like you, more Please.



Iv been saying that for a year or more now.  The best driving cars in DiRT Rally were the lightest & most powerful.  The 037 was so right for a RWD & the wee Metro 6R4 was probably my favourite 4wd of the game!

You could successfully power-over-steer both, truly engaging to drive.  Your pedals became equally as important as your steering input.

I believe that this type or driving is what captivated us all about DiRT Rally.

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versedi said:
yoyoML said:

It's so obvious... Just look at a) the corner exits where he straightens, and b) left-right-lefts. Every time the butt tucks in before the front changes direction. And it's on wet gravel.
If it's so obvious explain to me the forces working in x-y-z axis that does that, where the weight of the car is and how it transfers to the actual grip.

For me, most of you're talking general nonsense without actual facts. 

Start thinking with AXIS, and SIMULATION aspects and not too much grip, too easy to counter. These are general statements. 
Lateral grip is the problem when it comes to sliding IMHO. That would be X axis I believe. My guess is that Dirt simulates how tyre bites into a surface horizonally when sliding, the problem is parameters seem to be set the way it actually acts like a deep loose gravel (imagine clay). I had the same remarks about Dirt Rally V1 physics (you could enter a tight corner without braking, if you went in sideways enough lateral grip would slow you down, and engine would struggle to powerslide because there is too much resistance on the tyre comming from surface friction).

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First the good things:
- Braking has improved. Cars have weight and realistic feeling braking distances
- Jumps have improved. Again, weight feels better here
- Rally Cross and Landrush are great! Proof that the physics aren't bad... problem is the rally
- Tarmac is improved also in Rally

Bad things (applies to Rally only):
- Too much loose surface grip, especially in the backend. This applies to many cars, especially RWD rally cars
- Historic RWD cars don't have tendency to oversteer, but understeer. This seems just backwards to reality
- Overall the cars have tendency to understeer too much
- When you manage to get a slide, it ends too quickly and car is straightened. Holding a continuous slide through a long corner should be possible, and provoking an oversteer should not require extreme control inputs. On-throttle oversteer doesn't work like it should

@KickUp said in the livestream, that default setups are understeery and predictable on purpose.

But I believe they shouldn't be, but set up in a way that is optimal for rallying, nimble and capable of sliding. Not safe for newcomers. But ideal middle-ground setup that real drivers would use. At least in simulation mode. 

If the physics are good but setups are understeery, it gives bad impression for sim fanatics, who want to go sideways like proper rally, and think something is wrong with the physics. They just Steam refund, 2h Steam test time is not enough to start messing with setups.

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versedi said:

/E: I don't want to sound rude. It's just something people don't see. You can't just tweak the grip how you say - make it 75% less grippy. FWD wouldn't drive unless you'd be starting from 3rd gear then.
versedi said:
SamRWD said:
Whatever the actual reason of a problem (hidden forced assist, or grip) I think Codies have a busy week ahead. Looking at other forums people expect actions to be taken to resolve problem. I hope devs will talk about the whole thing.
I don't hope, I'm sure they will IF as stated in DiRT Show at launch day, there will be enough of actual constructive criticism, rather than TOO MUCH GRIP, IT'S BAD, GIVE DIRT RALLY 2.
So they aren't going to fix the game in case there will be no enough constructive criticism (in favour of plain criticism)? Are you kidding, right?


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There are some good theories being shared here and I'm certain the dev-team wants to do their best to satisfy as many players as is possible. The team were great to interact with during DR development so I'm confident that they can find a worthy solution and dispense the all too common "it's called Dirt 4 - not Dirt Rally 2, stupid" type of responses I've seen in some forums.

Whatever the cause, it would be good to get acknowledgement from the dev's that they are looking into it.

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Still too much braking force also.  The cars are waaay too point & squirt.  I'd love proper working with the car, proper shifting weight & proper braking distances to get a car slowed, turned in & held in a nice properly balanced slide right through a corner with some nice angle 

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KevM said:
Still too much braking force also.  The cars are waaay too point & squirt.  I'd love proper working with the car, proper shifting weight & proper braking distances to get a car slowed, turned in & held in a nice properly balanced slide right through a corner with some nice angle 
Yup, I also want to manage braking points especially on low grip conditions. Downshifting while balancing the car the way it is done in reality. Especially in Gr A cars I was looking forward to the most.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDTC1XfWiQ

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The problem and big mistake is the following: physics, grip, inertias.
Doing this in DIRT 4 is impossible with some rally cars. The car runs out of power and the grip is excessive.

LOOK AT THIS and do that in DIRT 4 ........

https://youtu.be/W7BxU0VCJVM

https://youtu.be/OpuhY1Bbd94

https://youtu.be/sD0bee9Tl0Q




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Grip levels seem to be even more on sweden than the gravel locations. Taking the mk.II escort there, makes the problem even more prominent. Also, the modern cars are much more difficult to slide there on cornering.

I love the stages in Sweden, but the grip levels are taking the excitement out of it.

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Yup, Sweden is terrible. However actually modern snow tyres provide more grip in right conditions than gravel tyres especially on wet gravel. That being said like you mentioned right now it is no fun, and I love driving on snow in other sim.

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There a lot of user claim that the tarmac stages is better, but I believe it's worst than DiRT Rally.

Pick some random user replay with DR on tarmac. You can see the car actually understeer without seeing the rear tire having more slip angle at the turn in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYk1zfPmx0

Pick some random user replay with D4 on tarmac. The car rear tire over power the front & the back first start to pivot very strong gaining. The gain max slip angle very quick while having optimal traction very quickly & remain very grippy. The front doesn't even have the time to gain slip angle. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwl79pZa9o

Maybe there's an issue in how the car transition the weight during acceleration & braking putting too much load by favoring grip making the car grip/slip angle too much in an unrealistic way.

Maybe some natural load from gravity that have to be removed when the tire is in contact to the road...

Real Life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOIJMgAHxrM

I always felt DiRT Rally tarmac was quite good actually, maybe superior to the dirt stages dynamically. I think it felt quite spot on dynamically except as if it lacked of resolution, maybe something about the FFB, but had no rubber progressive feeling or whatever.

Although, I got DiRT 4 refunded without even trying it. I watched a lot of gameplay & video. I suppose it still alright to have an opinion on it.

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Not an expert on anything physics related but feel there is something off. Not sure if grip/physics or ffb feeling or a mixture of them.
 In Dirt rally I ran a modifyed effects file(cant remember what one) with a few in game tweaks and the cars felt alive ie could feel them sliding searching for grip through the wheel(G25) I find this is lacking in Dirt4 (I have tryed playing with ingame settings) it maybe my wheel being old.
 Rallycross cars are fun to drive, can get some nice drifts/slides but still lack that feel, that I think makes the grip/physics issue feel worse. Also find I dont hear the road through my headset like with the last edition of dirt( razer chroma 7.1). Like the game overall, just wish for the feeling to be there. Also if anybody has a suggestion to get the feeling in the wheel I'm open to ideas. Just to add with my ffb options ingame I have no engine choice which when you look at "what is this" it has that option. Also I could not seem to make a profile in logitech profiler and launch dirt4 from it.
Hope codies can make this game amazing as I think it has potential.

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