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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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bogani said:
griev0r said:
dsiOne said:
I mean, he does get air, get on the brakes, then slide over the crest of the road onto off-camber, doesn't look wrong to me. Even snaps directly back into oversteer once he gets back on throttle. All in all a good save from sliding (oversteer or understeer) right off the track. Wonder how many people have powerslid on the cambered side of that corner without even thinking twice about it.
I disagree, watch it a couple times.  The corner is downhill, he initiates the slide and halfway before the corner ends the car straightens itself out forcing him to correct and turn INTO the corner, and even then it is understeering insanely bad.  This behavior in a 4WD would look wrong, the fact this is a RWD car is crazy. 
The only reason for this behaviour is that the outside rear tire digs in so hard in to the surface it eventually just stops, thus throwing the front of the car to the outside. 

Why do the cars actually feel heavier in D4 compared to DR? The devs always stated that the gravity and mass of the cars were correct in DR. They did remodel the aero model, but that should only affect the cars at speed and in the air. It shouldn't make the cars feel heavier at lower speeds.

You also get it.

To answer your question as to why why cars feel heavier at lower speeds. For the same reason that they also feel more stable at low speeds. 

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bogani said:
griev0r said:
dsiOne said:
I mean, he does get air, get on the brakes, then slide over the crest of the road onto off-camber, doesn't look wrong to me. Even snaps directly back into oversteer once he gets back on throttle. All in all a good save from sliding (oversteer or understeer) right off the track. Wonder how many people have powerslid on the cambered side of that corner without even thinking twice about it.
I disagree, watch it a couple times.  The corner is downhill, he initiates the slide and halfway before the corner ends the car straightens itself out forcing him to correct and turn INTO the corner, and even then it is understeering insanely bad.  This behavior in a 4WD would look wrong, the fact this is a RWD car is crazy. 
The only reason for this behaviour is that the outside rear tire digs in so hard in to the surface it eventually just stops, thus throwing the front of the car to the outside. 

Why do the cars actually feel heavier in D4 compared to DR? The devs always stated that the gravity and mass of the cars were correct in DR. They did remodel the aero model, but that should only affect the cars at speed and in the air. It shouldn't make the cars feel heavier at lower speeds.

Let's say they actually did alter the likes of gravity, which gives the cars a more planted feel overall. That would also mean that the tires effectively would dig in much more in to the surface.

I compared the Focus 2007 in Wales in DR and D4 before. In DR it feels like I'm first on the road sweeping all the loose gravel away while in D4 the tires are gripping the hard base undeneath the loose gravel.

Just speculating.
Feeling of weight highly depends on ForceFeedback. You can get immersion of heavier car by modyfying translation of forces into steering wheel tourque changes. This means, you can get a feeling of either light or heavy car without changing physics at all. I suggest you to make an experiment. Just lower FFB forces significantly. Then you will see (feel) how "light" a car is.
Don't know if CM did it this way, and if so, I'm sure it wouldn't be only playing with overall force level. But since I never complained about DR physics (even on tarmac) while other do, I believe it's thanx to FFB settings.

BTW: mentioned a few times floaty behaviour of cars in DR (baloon tires and so on) must not be a consequence of physics. Again: it could be FFB and head-cam, movement of which can be enabled/disabled in settings. In D4 most videos are made with headcam movement disabled which gives a feeling of more planted vehicle.





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It seem the @Headlong, @Porkhammer, @JZStudios, etc seem very positive with the current sim handling. I don't see any reason for Codemasters to tweak the handling as it is claimed to be superior & more playable than DiRT Rally. 

I'm from another planet & the current built isn't captivating me.

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MrDeap said:
It seem the @Headlong, @Porkhammer, @JZStudios, etc seem very positive with the current sim handling. I don't see any reason for Codemasters to tweak the handling as it is claimed to be superior & more playable than DiRT Rally. 

I'm from another planet & the current built isn't captivating me.

Being positive does not mean things can't improve.

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MrDeap said:
It seem the @Headlong, @Porkhammer, @JZStudios, etc seem very positive with the current sim handling. I don't see any reason for Codemasters to tweak the handling as it is claimed to be superior & more playable than DiRT Rally. 

I'm from another planet & the current built isn't captivating me.

do things need to be tweaked ? yes.some things are better than dirt rally some are worse.no debating about this that real life whatever will change that.

the problem is this thread is just a garbage bin for all to dump words in.we dont even know if any of it is being noted or what is being noted or whos opinions are taken as right or wrong. 37 pgs about gossip basically with no real this car whats wrong with it in simple form.

many people have devices set up wrong or so many settings changed they dont know if they coming or going.its just a mis mash of words.no end product. ideally would be nice to hear from the team soon as its been a bit since release to ask how any patches are progressing if cars are going to be tweaked if so when ? rough estimate. im fine playing the game as it is im just not enjoying all aspects as much as i could due to certain handling issues. regardless of those who say there is none.

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Keyboard + "Gamer mode" = Genius!
G29 + "Simulator mode" = horrible.
That's it!

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MrDeap said:
It seem the @Headlong, @Porkhammer, @JZStudios, etc seem very positive with the current sim handling. I don't see any reason for Codemasters to tweak the handling as it is claimed to be superior & more playable than DiRT Rally. 

I'm from another planet & the current built isn't captivating me.

Why am I dragged into this and when did I say that? I've said overall the physics have improved and are a lot more stable. I've also made it clear that I haven't played very much due to injury.
I will say though, I don't know what it is, but D4 on controller (in sim mode) is absolute garbage. I don't know why because DR works perfectly fine. Something funky there.

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JZStudios said:
Why am I dragged into this and when did I say that? I've said overall the physics have improved and are a lot more stable. I've also made it clear that I haven't played very much due to injury.
I will say though, I don't know what it is, but D4 on controller (in sim mode) is absolute garbage. I don't know why because DR works perfectly fine. Something funky there.
I'm sorry if I missed it earlier but, can you please clarify what you mean by "controller? Pad / wheel / other.

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JZStudios said:
Why am I dragged into this and when did I say that? I've said overall the physics have improved and are a lot more stable.
o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :*

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Can I just say...

The whole 'harder' doesn't mean 'better' line is starting to wear really thin.

also...

Professional drivers were involved with refining the handling- also wearing thin.


The simple simple truth is, a car CANT do what it does in DiRT 4 gravel stages.  To call that behaviour 'simulation', is just wrong & needs fixed.

Dirt Rally gravel wasn't a perfect sim, but it felt a whole load more life-like & plausible than what D4 does

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@KevM 
It got the seal of approval from the community that the handling behavior is good.



No need to tweak if it's a superior product.



 

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https://youtu.be/oZrIjQV0Hs8

Maybe this could be used to check if for example that Subaru 2001 acts the same way in RX.
If it is, then it is about car's physics parameters. If it isn't, then it means it's road parameters in rally.
Also maybe it will be possible to give RX cars a shot on rally stages for the same test.

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bogani said:
MrDeap said:
It seem the @Headlong, @Porkhammer, @JZStudios, etc seem very positive with the current sim handling. I don't see any reason for Codemasters to tweak the handling as it is claimed to be superior & more playable than DiRT Rally. 

I'm from another planet & the current built isn't captivating me.

Being positive does not mean things can't improve.
Things can always improve. But I can forgive them (codemasters) if they don't rally feel like doing anything given that:

a) On the whole the handling and physics are superb and I'm sure they know it. If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb. The amount of work that must have gone into this is enormous, and that slow mo video of Gheed's could be an advertisement for how incredibly detailed and realistic the new physics model is. I mean show me a video of another rally sim that simulates surfaces, tyre grip at different slip angles, cambers, bumps and depressions affecting the behaviour of the car in such a realistic way. Go on, let's see it. 

b) Too many people here have repeatedly demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of vehicle dynamics. I really doubt that codemasters are going to take seriously the opinion of somebody who posts a video of normal and extremely realistic car behaviour and calls it wrong. 

And thats that. 

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MrDeap said:
JZStudios said:
Why am I dragged into this and when did I say that? I've said overall the physics have improved and are a lot more stable.
o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) o:) :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :*
Hey, all I mean is the cars no longer curve in the air and all have their own absurd set of physics. Oh, and no more space launches.
But you can think whatever you want Nepnep.

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subaru 2001 wrong
escort mk2 wrong
sierra cosworth wrong.


thats three iconic cars.just briefly pointing out with default or set up changes dont help.there are others but its hot and regardless of how wrong they are i already know what is coming next.

the thing you cant glide through corners with such iconic cars especially for corners.says it all.ill support codemasters all day but dont say things are right when they not.foundations can be built on that which makes for a terrible future.especially when they not the righ foundations.

i dont even want to keep typing this as its basically 90 percent Headlong who is either a troll or a employee just saying nothing is wrong guys.the games great just let us tweak it so its dirt rally brilliant !

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dgeesi0 said:
subaru 2001 wrong
escort mk2 wrong
sierra cosworth wrong.


thats three iconic cars.just briefly pointing out with default or set up changes dont help.there are others but its hot and regardless of how wrong they are i already know what is coming next.

the thing you cant glide through corners with such iconic cars especially for corners.says it all.ill support codemasters all day but dont say things are right when they not.foundations can be built on that which makes for a terrible future.especially when they not the righ foundations.

i dont even want to keep typing this as its basically 90 percent Headlong who is either a troll or a employee just saying nothing is wrong guys.the games great just let us tweak it so its dirt rally brilliant !
And if the people here demonstrate some semblance of knowing what they're talking about, maybe they'll look into those cars. But posting videos showing an incredibly sophisticated physics model that affects the cars in the most detailed and realistic way yet seen in a rally sim is not the way to achieve that objective. Nor is saying that parameters have been messed up, or that the physics are completely wrong because the cars don't slide on every corner the way they do in RBR.

In fact, do the following experiment: go to the Assetto Corsa forum and tell them that their parameters are all wrong or messed up. Lord Kunos will be on you in a heart beat, and you'll be lucky to avoid a lifetime ban. So I think codemasters have indulged some of you long enough. I mean there is such a thing as constructive criticism, but some of the things that have been said here are beyond ridiculous. 


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After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

Cause there are some fast parts where my driving looks a bit like this...
But the most of Sweden in D4 is very bumpy... I think, there are no nice smooth e.g. "2s in 3s"... they are nearly all bumby and u have to drive strange (if u know what I mean) to get through it fast...

And even nearly all 5s and 6s are very bumpy... U always have to care about loosing grip or jumping a bit

And there's no car height in the setup, which can compensate these heights of the bumps

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Headlong said:
dgeesi0 said:
subaru 2001 wrong
escort mk2 wrong
sierra cosworth wrong.


thats three iconic cars.just briefly pointing out with default or set up changes dont help.there are others but its hot and regardless of how wrong they are i already know what is coming next.

the thing you cant glide through corners with such iconic cars especially for corners.says it all.ill support codemasters all day but dont say things are right when they not.foundations can be built on that which makes for a terrible future.especially when they not the righ foundations.

i dont even want to keep typing this as its basically 90 percent Headlong who is either a troll or a employee just saying nothing is wrong guys.the games great just let us tweak it so its dirt rally brilliant !
And if the people here demonstrate some semblance of knowing what they're talking about, maybe they'll look into those cars. But posting videos showing an incredibly sophisticated physics model that affects the cars in the most detailed and realistic way yet seen in a rally sim is not the way to achieve that objective. Nor is saying that parameters have been messed up, or that the physics are completely wrong because the cars don't slide on every corner the way they do in RBR.

In fact, do the following experiment: go to the Assetto Corsa forum and tell them that their parameters are all wrong or messed up. Lord Kunos will be on you in a heart beat, and you'll be lucky to avoid a lifetime ban. So I think codemasters have indulged some of you long enough. I mean there is such a thing as constructive criticism, but some of the things that have been said here are beyond ridiculous. 


In AC cars behave believable and convincing while some can find values in physics parametrisation which are a bit off reality.
In D4, physics is perfect, top notch and detailed yet seen in a rally sim, but cars don't allow to do with them what real cars are capable for.
Sorry pal, but it's kinda schizofrenic.

Personaly I don't really care how perfect underlaying physics is, until it has serious flaws. And I have to note, that you are completely clueless about this engine. Even if you are steady to repeat again and again how advanced it is, like you were an author of it.
Important is, that it works more or less wrong. Under some condition issues it's (for most players) barelly recognizable while under other conditions - it trashes the title down, unveiling completely unrealistic behaviour (worth to mention: it's true for conditions/surfaces being simulated - I have to point this, because you are prone to argue how realistic the simulation is for just unrealistic gravel)




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Vannipo said:
After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

The average gamer would not be able to drive like that in real life even on perfectly smooth stages that were 3 times as wide as they are in D4. There are definitely some delusional people here who think that they're Colin McRae, or someone like that.  

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I'm sure even Colin McRae wouldn't been able to go sideways on gravel.in D4. So what now?

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Headlong said:
Vannipo said:
After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

The average gamer would not be able to drive like that in real life even on perfectly smooth stages that were 3 times as wide as they are in D4. There are definitely some delusional people here who think that they're Colin McRae, or someone like that.  
I don't think anyone here thinks that they drive better than Colin. Why do you think there are some people like that here?
If that was the case those people would talk about D4 being too difficult to drive. No one does AFAIK.

What some of us are concerned about is the way cars behave in this game. I can drive better in D4 than Colin in real life. I can go through corners much faster than the best rally driver would do in his car, because I can go through it without sliding as much and for as long as they do. They loose so much unnecessary time every corner. Not to mention braking from 100km/h to 0 in 2 seconds using a gamepad. Those real wold drivers don't know how to brake too. WRC engineers are especially dumb, they should use gamepad inspired controls inside a rally car. Who needs precision.

Except I cannot drive worse than real world drivers because D4 doesn't allow you to do that.

You don't get a sim by forcing it to work right. You get a sim if you have to force it to not work right.


So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Vannipo said:
After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

The average gamer would not be able to drive like that in real life even on perfectly smooth stages that were 3 times as wide as they are in D4. There are definitely some delusional people here who think that they're Colin McRae, or someone like that.  
I don't think anyone here thinks that they drive better than Colin. Why do you think there are some people like that here?
If that was the case those people would talk about D4 being too difficult to drive. No one does AFAIK.

What some of us are concerned about is the way cars behave in this game. I can drive better in D4 than Colin in real life. I can go through corners much faster than the best rally driver would do in his car, because I can go through it without sliding as much and for as long as they do. They loose so much unnecessary time every corner. Not to mention braking from 100km/h to 0 in 2 seconds using a gamepad. Those real wold drivers don't know how to brake too. WRC engineers are especially dumb, they should use gamepad inspired controls inside a rally car. Who needs precision.

Except I cannot drive worse than real world drivers because D4 doesn't allow you to do that.

You don't get a sim by forcing it to work right. You get a sim if you have to force it to not work right.


So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic.
You're all over the shop here. Pick one point you wish to make and elaborate on it, because these kinds of generalised comments based on opinion and conjecture is precisely the kind of thing we should try to avoid if we're going to be helpful to the devs.

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Vannipo said:
After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

The average gamer would not be able to drive like that in real life even on perfectly smooth stages that were 3 times as wide as they are in D4. There are definitely some delusional people here who think that they're Colin McRae, or someone like that.  
I don't think anyone here thinks that they drive better than Colin. Why do you think there are some people like that here?
If that was the case those people would talk about D4 being too difficult to drive. No one does AFAIK.

What some of us are concerned about is the way cars behave in this game. I can drive better in D4 than Colin in real life. I can go through corners much faster than the best rally driver would do in his car, because I can go through it without sliding as much and for as long as they do. They loose so much unnecessary time every corner. Not to mention braking from 100km/h to 0 in 2 seconds using a gamepad. Those real wold drivers don't know how to brake too. WRC engineers are especially dumb, they should use gamepad inspired controls inside a rally car. Who needs precision.

Except I cannot drive worse than real world drivers because D4 doesn't allow you to do that.

You don't get a sim by forcing it to work right. You get a sim if you have to force it to not work right.


So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic.
You're all over the shop here. Pick one point you wish to make and elaborate on it, because these kinds of generalised comments based on opinion and conjecture is precisely the kind of thing we should try to avoid if we're going to be helpful to the devs.
that'se xactly what you do here, in the very post of your I quoted. But let's go one by one:
"So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic."

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Vannipo said:
After watching many of this real footage of sweden, my first thought was
"Maybe, we just miss such flat nice roads... then maybe, we could drive like that..."

The average gamer would not be able to drive like that in real life even on perfectly smooth stages that were 3 times as wide as they are in D4. There are definitely some delusional people here who think that they're Colin McRae, or someone like that.  
I don't think anyone here thinks that they drive better than Colin. Why do you think there are some people like that here?
If that was the case those people would talk about D4 being too difficult to drive. No one does AFAIK.

What some of us are concerned about is the way cars behave in this game. I can drive better in D4 than Colin in real life. I can go through corners much faster than the best rally driver would do in his car, because I can go through it without sliding as much and for as long as they do. They loose so much unnecessary time every corner. Not to mention braking from 100km/h to 0 in 2 seconds using a gamepad. Those real wold drivers don't know how to brake too. WRC engineers are especially dumb, they should use gamepad inspired controls inside a rally car. Who needs precision.

Except I cannot drive worse than real world drivers because D4 doesn't allow you to do that.

You don't get a sim by forcing it to work right. You get a sim if you have to force it to not work right.


So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic.
You're all over the shop here. Pick one point you wish to make and elaborate on it, because these kinds of generalised comments based on opinion and conjecture is precisely the kind of thing we should try to avoid if we're going to be helpful to the devs.
that'se xactly what you do here, in the very post of your I quoted. But let's go one by one:
"So all in all you agree that simulator should not be aiming to be playable with all assists off on a gamepad as easy as on driving wheel, or you don't? That's the simple question. Answer using logic."
First of all I didn't realise that you are a pad user. I assumed that you have played using a wheel. Is that correct?

To answer your question as to whether a sim should be as playable with a pad with all assists off as it is with a wheel, my answer is that no, it shouldn't. 

If if driving a car with a little joystick and a couple of buttons and levers were easy and intuitive that's what cars would have. But they don't. Every car I've ever seen has a steering wheel and pedals. 

As as to whether devs should aim to make it as playable with a pad as with a steering wheel. I will say yes, but it doesn't mean that they will succeed. Certainly not without some filtering and other algorithmic changes to the way the inputs on pad are translated into inputs in game. 

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id really like to see such behaviour that i posted on video in real life. It doesnt make much sense to me and i hope you can explain with detail whats going on there.


also, why didnt you comment on the fact that rally cars slow down from 100 kph to 0 faster on gravel than asphalt. thats not right either and points to some issues with gravel surface which isnt restricted to dirtfish area.

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