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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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sqdstr said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgYsRSETWfw

What do u guys think of his opinion?    
He's totally on-point when it comes to the deja-vu in rally stages....real shame....but wrong post/thread for talking about that so I won't comment any further.
@Headlong & @versedi, so you enjoy the different stage layouts compared to DR?  I kinda miss the character of the stages in DR to be honest....these new ones feel a bit dull and computery-generated rather than an artist.  Opinions?  Or is there another thread link to comment on stage layout/feel??


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battfinkz said:
Trust me Bogani, its not THAT hard. Advanced techniques and understanding of car behaviour are of course, but i was getting mk2 fiestas sideways on gravel at 14 years old.

And this is where the issue is, the seemingly bugged loss and recovery of rear grip on certain cars on certain tracks. As mentioned in another thread, even with autobrake and all other assists off, the handbrake still applies when stopped. This is just a small example of what i believe is going on, some sort of buggy assist, etc, restricting an otherwise superb physics engine.
I'm fully aware of how to drive RWD cars on mixed tarmac/gravel circuits. I've had a motorsport license for that since I was 14.

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 

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The car i was referring to was a fwd but same principle, you know how easy it is to instigate and maintain a slide. The game doesnt realistically depict this at times with certain cars and tracks. We're on the same wavelength

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Headlong said:
Headlong said:
Sho846 said:
Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mDDq97tmzk&t=76s

There is tons more of Sweden onboards and footage to validate that Swedish snow and ice roads are far more loose than it is in D4.
Look at that innertia / momentum.....that's what is missing I reckon.
It's not missing in D4, it was missing in DR.

The more inertia a vehicle possesses the more difficult it is to manipulate it, and therefore the less nimble it is. Think about it. What's more nimble and changes direction quicker, a 400 kg dune buggy, or a 10 tonne truck? Of course the buggy will change direction quicker and will be easier to manipulate than the truck. That's why in D4 people are struggling to do the same the things they could do easily in DR, since DR didn't model inertia properly and the cars seemed weightless.
So why in DiRT Rally's Sweden, could I do exactly what that RL video shows, and can't really do in DiRT 4 Sweden?  Isn't DiRT Rally therefore simulating RL more accurately (for Sweden anyway), than DiRT 4??
Because DR didn't simulate inertia and weight properly and therefore you didn't have to do very much to intitiate a slide, and once the slide happened it kept going for a long time pretty much by itself  without you having to do very much since the weight wasn't there to produce enough friction and therefore grip. 

The tyre model and how grip was simulated at depending on the slip angle also had something to do with it. 

So effectively DR made you think that you are Colin Mcrae, when in actuality you are not. 
@Headlong ok I'll take your word for it (haha).  Thanks.  Thoughts on this, I've driven the Ford Escort Cosworth (love this car) in Australia, tweaked the setup and I think it's quite spot on now.  The feeling of oversteer/braking/grip levels etc, but then have driven the same car in Wales and yeah it really felt unintuitive and different...like getting pulled off the road in understeer, having to use the handbrake to flick the back on corners that needed it...thoughts?  Do you think that's legit or unrealistic/buggy?
Have you tried loading your setup from Australia into your Wales car?  From what I can see some of the car setups are very conservative probably so that casual racers can keep them on the track. I'm currently playing with the group A Lancia in Wales and when I checked the default setup there is no toe in on the front wheels, I added 30 degrees toe in to sharpen up the steering and it's now a completely different feeling car :smile:

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Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY

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madwak said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
Sho846 said:
Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mDDq97tmzk&t=76s

There is tons more of Sweden onboards and footage to validate that Swedish snow and ice roads are far more loose than it is in D4.
Look at that innertia / momentum.....that's what is missing I reckon.
It's not missing in D4, it was missing in DR.

The more inertia a vehicle possesses the more difficult it is to manipulate it, and therefore the less nimble it is. Think about it. What's more nimble and changes direction quicker, a 400 kg dune buggy, or a 10 tonne truck? Of course the buggy will change direction quicker and will be easier to manipulate than the truck. That's why in D4 people are struggling to do the same the things they could do easily in DR, since DR didn't model inertia properly and the cars seemed weightless.
So why in DiRT Rally's Sweden, could I do exactly what that RL video shows, and can't really do in DiRT 4 Sweden?  Isn't DiRT Rally therefore simulating RL more accurately (for Sweden anyway), than DiRT 4??
Because DR didn't simulate inertia and weight properly and therefore you didn't have to do very much to intitiate a slide, and once the slide happened it kept going for a long time pretty much by itself  without you having to do very much since the weight wasn't there to produce enough friction and therefore grip. 

The tyre model and how grip was simulated at depending on the slip angle also had something to do with it. 

So effectively DR made you think that you are Colin Mcrae, when in actuality you are not. 
@Headlong ok I'll take your word for it (haha).  Thanks.  Thoughts on this, I've driven the Ford Escort Cosworth (love this car) in Australia, tweaked the setup and I think it's quite spot on now.  The feeling of oversteer/braking/grip levels etc, but then have driven the same car in Wales and yeah it really felt unintuitive and different...like getting pulled off the road in understeer, having to use the handbrake to flick the back on corners that needed it...thoughts?  Do you think that's legit or unrealistic/buggy?
Have you tried loading your setup from Australia into your Wales car?  From what I can see some of the car setups are very conservative probably so that casual racers can keep them on the track. I'm currently playing with the group A Lancia in Wales and when I checked the default setup there is no toe in on the front wheels, I added 30 degrees toe in to sharpen up the steering and it's now a completely different feeling car :smile:
Admittedly....I don't think I actually have (whoops), will do so!

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escort mk2s in action filmed by @Rallycameraman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XeISzbviWk

the backend needs to come round

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Headlong said:
Headlong said:
Sho846 said:
Kris Meeke consulted on modern cars, but why do they not behave like this in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mDDq97tmzk&t=76s

There is tons more of Sweden onboards and footage to validate that Swedish snow and ice roads are far more loose than it is in D4.
Look at that innertia / momentum.....that's what is missing I reckon.
It's not missing in D4, it was missing in DR.

The more inertia a vehicle possesses the more difficult it is to manipulate it, and therefore the less nimble it is. Think about it. What's more nimble and changes direction quicker, a 400 kg dune buggy, or a 10 tonne truck? Of course the buggy will change direction quicker and will be easier to manipulate than the truck. That's why in D4 people are struggling to do the same the things they could do easily in DR, since DR didn't model inertia properly and the cars seemed weightless.
So why in DiRT Rally's Sweden, could I do exactly what that RL video shows, and can't really do in DiRT 4 Sweden?  Isn't DiRT Rally therefore simulating RL more accurately (for Sweden anyway), than DiRT 4??
Because DR didn't simulate inertia and weight properly and therefore you didn't have to do very much to intitiate a slide, and once the slide happened it kept going for a long time pretty much by itself  without you having to do very much since the weight wasn't there to produce enough friction and therefore grip. 

The tyre model and how grip was simulated at depending on the slip angle also had something to do with it. 

So effectively DR made you think that you are Colin Mcrae, when in actuality you are not. 
@Headlong ok I'll take your word for it (haha).  Thanks.  Thoughts on this, I've driven the Ford Escort Cosworth (love this car) in Australia, tweaked the setup and I think it's quite spot on now.  The feeling of oversteer/braking/grip levels etc, but then have driven the same car in Wales and yeah it really felt unintuitive and different...like getting pulled off the road in understeer, having to use the handbrake to flick the back on corners that needed it...thoughts?  Do you think that's legit or unrealistic/buggy?
Set the time of day to dawn or sunset at both Australis and Wales so that it illuminates everything at a very raking angle and you'll see how very different the surfaces are. Aside from the fact that Australia is a softish clay/dirt type of surface whereas Wales is more of a dirt with a very heavy gravel sitting on top, you will also see that Australia tends to be flatter and not as crowned and cambered on the whole. 

Plus have a look at the replay. I'm confident that you'll see that the seemingly inexplicable understeer was caused by something. Whether it was a slight brake lockup, push from the engine or bad camber or depression. 

Personally I never cane across a behaviour that I could not explain having subsequently ansysed it, so on the while I think it's all legit. 


gheeD
said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
Plenty of arguments have already been made by several people here, not just me. And it has been explained to you why the car behaviour that you think is unrealistic, is in fact realistic. Problem is, you're not listening. 

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.

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gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Sorry. I forgot to put the  ;).

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gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 

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well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? that was the issue in dirt rally aswell, aerodynamics seemed reasonably realistic albeit very light until a fast driver pushed the car and took off and started flying rotating in whichever way the nose is pointing.

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gheeD said:
well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? 
No, they shouldn't. And they don't. 

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Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

The Fiat, a light RWD car with 240hp is having major problems spinning the wheels on throttle in Wales. There are issues. Codemasters themselfes admitted there are things to look at.

The core simulation is a big step forward, but there are things to improve upon.

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Headlong said:
gheeD said:
well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? 
No, they shouldn't. And they don't. 
Based on my experience I disagree. I agree the cars work fine, but surface and especially the "digging in" of tyres is not accurate to real life.


In real life if i go too fast into a corner and throw the car sideways, ill slide off the edge into the forest and wreck. In dirt i can overdrive and throw car sideways and it digs in and stays on the track.

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? 
No, they shouldn't. And they don't. 
Based on my experience I disagree. I agree the cars work fine, but surface and especially the "digging in" of tyres is not accurate to real life.


In real life if i go too fast into a corner and throw the car sideways, ill slide off the edge into the forest and wreck. In dirt i can overdrive and throw car sideways and it digs in and stays on the track.
There really needs to be massive ruts or extremely deep loose gravel for the tires to dig in as much as it would take to make it behave like that.

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Personally I can see what @gheeD is saying, and I agree with him.
Particularly in the example he posted, first of all the tires would not dig in so deep into the relatively firm welsh gravel that the slide completely stops, especially not on a downhill corner on the outside camber, but what he has to do is steer into the corner just to try and keep the rear end out.
I have yet to see any video that  shows a RWD handle like this. Any video I have seen, the driver always has to countersteer or at least keep the wheel straight when going on the throttle. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
I believe that the term powersliding originates from the fact that you can control the slide with your power, which I have yet to succesfully do in any car, the only time I can slide is when I just fling the car so fast into the corner that it bogs down so far into the corner that I can power straight out, I have never managed to control the slide itsself with the throttle (ie. make it a bit wider/shorter/hold it RIIIIGHT there).
The problem is also prominent in AWD cars, but the behavior can be tuned out somewhat.

(for the record: tires digging into gravel are a thing, and in general I think that D4's simulation engine is very much improved, but I feel that there need to be some tweaks for edge cases like this)

 

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Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk

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Engine is improved, but parameters used for calculation are off. RX and Dirt fish show what physics engine core is capable of (of course 2 seconds from 100 kmph to full stop needs to be addressed even on Dirtfish). I am on smartphone, will post longer posts as soon as I get home. 

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bogani said:
Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk
BMW M3 FWD? :D

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? 
No, they shouldn't. And they don't. 
Based on my experience I disagree. I agree the cars work fine, but surface and especially the "digging in" of tyres is not accurate to real life.


In real life if i go too fast into a corner and throw the car sideways, ill slide off the edge into the forest and wreck. In dirt i can overdrive and throw car sideways and it digs in and stays on the track.
There's something wrong with your setup then cos mine does exactly what you state in the 2nd bit, I can't get my tyres to dig in :neutral:

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bogani said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
well the physics shouldnt break when someone of superior driving ability is driving, should they? 
No, they shouldn't. And they don't. 
Based on my experience I disagree. I agree the cars work fine, but surface and especially the "digging in" of tyres is not accurate to real life.


In real life if i go too fast into a corner and throw the car sideways, ill slide off the edge into the forest and wreck. In dirt i can overdrive and throw car sideways and it digs in and stays on the track.
There really needs to be massive ruts or extremely deep loose gravel for the tires to dig in as much as it would take to make it behave like that.
The ruts are quite massive in this game and the gravel is extremely deep in places. So much so that the cars lift the inside wheels when the weight transfer is very abrupt, In replays you can see wheel tracks 1 to 2 inches deep when this happens and dropping the clutch sometimes punches two massive holes into the gravel where the wheels spun. 

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versedi said:
bogani said:
Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk
BMW M3 FWD? :D
I think the the M3 behaves fantastic in Dirtfish so I really don't see the FWD likeness. Unless trollin'.

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