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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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kobeshow said:
Personally I can see what @gheeD is saying, and I agree with him.
Particularly in the example he posted, first of all the tires would not dig in so deep into the relatively firm welsh gravel that the slide completely stops, especially not on a downhill corner on the outside camber, but what he has to do is steer into the corner just to try and keep the rear end out.
I have yet to see any video that  shows a RWD handle like this. Any video I have seen, the driver always has to countersteer or at least keep the wheel straight when going on the throttle. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
I believe that the term powersliding originates from the fact that you can control the slide with your power, which I have yet to succesfully do in any car, the only time I can slide is when I just fling the car so fast into the corner that it bogs down so far into the corner that I can power straight out, I have never managed to control the slide itsself with the throttle (ie. make it a bit wider/shorter/hold it RIIIIGHT there).
The problem is also prominent in AWD cars, but the behavior can be tuned out somewhat.

(for the record: tires digging into gravel are a thing, and in general I think that D4's simulation engine is very much improved, but I feel that there need to be some tweaks for edge cases like this)

 

The videos of cars handling like this are rare because the types of corners with multiple cambers, bumps depressions, ruts and different compositions are rare in real life. Codies wanted to make the topography of the stages as varied, unpredictable and as challenging as possible, because they thought that that's what people wanted based on the feedback from DR. And now that they've delivered what people seemingly wanted, they have a bunch of whining from a few people. What do people want? 

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bogani said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

And based on what am I in a position to agree or disagree? I've never driven this car in real life, but it would seem to me that a car that weighs close to a tonne and has 240 bhp isn't going to go nuts with the wheelspin. Plus it can wheelspin, about the amount I imagine it should given its specs.

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Headlong said:

bogani said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

And based on what am I in a position to agree or disagree? I've never driven this car in real life, but it would seem to me that a car that weighs close to a tonne and has 240 bhp isn't going to go nuts with the wheelspin. Plus it can wheelspin, about the amount I imagine it should given its specs.
If you put it like that none of our opinions in here are valid as pretty much zero of us drove any of the actual cars in game. Yet you are constantly claiming how wrong people are in here and know nothing about car dynamics. Thank god that you come in here explaining to us all what is right and wrong!

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bogani said:
Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk
I would say that regardless of the slightly "dead" look, surprisingly sharp tyre bite and effortless braking zones it looks rather good. But I'd be very careful to judge just because of a one single onboard video.

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yeah i actually am finding my biggest gripe with the series that the stages have heavily unrealistic profiles. such stages would never be allowed to be driven in real life. Oh and it does get boring fast driving same corners over and over again, every single stage.

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bogani said:
Headlong said:

bogani said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

And based on what am I in a position to agree or disagree? I've never driven this car in real life, but it would seem to me that a car that weighs close to a tonne and has 240 bhp isn't going to go nuts with the wheelspin. Plus it can wheelspin, about the amount I imagine it should given its specs.
If you put it like that none of our opinions in here are valid as pretty much zero of us drove any of the actual cars in game. Yet you are constantly claiming how wrong people are in here and know nothing about car dynamics. Thank god that you come in here explaining to us all what is right and wrong!
Yes, I am saying that unless you've driven a particular car in real life and in similar conditions you are not qualified to comment on the nuances of its behaviour. 

I have already said many times that even though I am able to comment on the general physics and car behaviour due to my training in design and engineering and based on my rally driving experience, I would not dream of advising Codies on the finer points of various car's behaviour. That would just be downright nutty. 

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bogani said:
versedi said:
bogani said:
Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk
BMW M3 FWD? :D
I think the the M3 behaves fantastic in Dirtfish so I really don't see the FWD likeness. Unless trollin'.
And just now I saw that it was you @versedi that wrote that. Makes sense now. Dunno how I missed it at first ;)

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Let's get back to basics here.

I can confirm, that from personal experience, driving a Rally car IS easy.  Particularly a rear wheel drive one.  It's really easy, because it's really really intuitive.  A mk2 Escort is possibly thee most intuitive chassis ever on the mainstream market, ever!!  Driving the car fast, on a narrow stage is where the challenge lies

Dirt Rally felt really intuitive also.  F#ck physics, It just had the right 'feel'. Simple as that.  It steered as it should, the throttle & brakes did as they should.  & the challenge was, driving the car down a stage, fast!

Its was simple as that & brilliant because of it

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bogani said:
versedi said:
bogani said:
Just curious @Nahkamarakatti, if you were to judge D4 physics wise by what's seen in this video only, what would you think?

https://youtu.be/1nXPE0mPoZk
BMW M3 FWD? :D
I think the the M3 behaves fantastic in Dirtfish so I really don't see the FWD likeness. Unless trollin'.
50/50.

I've watched the clip without any sound and only skipped through few parts, where it was looking IMHO too understeery, eg. 0:16-0:19, 0:33-0:34. But that's just the visuals I don't know what inputs you were doing there.

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Just seen that there's a patch out for pc and PS4 anybody tried it yet?

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KevM said:
Let's get back to basics here.

I can confirm, that from personal experience, driving a Rally car IS easy.  Particularly a rear wheel drive one.  It's really easy, because it's really really intuitive.  A mk2 Escort is possibly thee most intuitive chassis ever on the mainstream market, ever!!  Driving the car fast, on a narrow stage is where the challenge lies

Dirt Rally felt really intuitive also.  F#ck physics, It just had the right 'feel'. Simple as that.  It steered as it should, the throttle & brakes did as they should.  & the challenge was, driving the car down a stage, fast!

Its was simple as that & brilliant because of it
I can also confirm from personal experience that driving a rally car is easy -- it's just driving a car after all.  But driving it hard, fast and on the limit and under complete control and through the kinds of multi- surface, multi-cambered, bumpy, uphill, downhill, blind and deceptive corners that we have in D4, that's another world, and way beyond what the majority of the population is capable of. 

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no rally organisator would be crazy enough to do a stage on such a ridiculous piece of road. Thats why i liked dirt rally, the roads were real, but didnt necessarily like how some "creative freedoms" were taken on various locations, for example to make ouninpohja into a rollercoaster. also straights were hugely reduced because that would just be boring. 

Well, for me im having a HUGE blast driving ouninpohja in RBR and its as accurate as any professional made track.

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gheeD said:
no rally organisator would be crazy enough to do a stage on such a ridiculous piece of road. Thats why i liked dirt rally, the roads were real, but didnt necessarily like how some "creative freedoms" were taken on various locations, for example to make ouninpohja into a rollercoaster. also straights were hugely reduced because that would just be boring. 

Well, for me im having a HUGE blast driving ouninpohja in RBR and its as accurate as any professional made track.
Well, it's all starting to make sense. You like swinging a car through wide flat bends where the car behaves pretty much consistently all the time. RBR is the perfect game for you then.

For those who actually like to be kept on their toes and constantly react to the variety of challenges that each corner presents, D4 is where it's at. 

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Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.

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Headlong said:
gheeD said:
no rally organisator would be crazy enough to do a stage on such a ridiculous piece of road. Thats why i liked dirt rally, the roads were real, but didnt necessarily like how some "creative freedoms" were taken on various locations, for example to make ouninpohja into a rollercoaster. also straights were hugely reduced because that would just be boring. 

Well, for me im having a HUGE blast driving ouninpohja in RBR and its as accurate as any professional made track.
Well, it's all starting to make sense. You like swinging a car through wide flat bends where the car behaves pretty much consistently all the time. RBR is the perfect game for you then.

For those who actually like to be kept on their toes and constantly react to the variety of challenges that each corner presents, D4 is where it's at. 
Perhaps you shouldnt comment on stuff you clearly have no experience in.

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Headlong said:
gheeD said:
no rally organisator would be crazy enough to do a stage on such a ridiculous piece of road. Thats why i liked dirt rally, the roads were real, but didnt necessarily like how some "creative freedoms" were taken on various locations, for example to make ouninpohja into a rollercoaster. also straights were hugely reduced because that would just be boring. 

Well, for me im having a HUGE blast driving ouninpohja in RBR and its as accurate as any professional made track.
Well, it's all starting to make sense. You like swinging a car through wide flat bends where the car behaves pretty much consistently all the time. RBR is the perfect game for you then.

For those who actually like to be kept on their toes and constantly react to the variety of challenges that each corner presents, D4 is where it's at. 
Dirt 4 is actually easier to drive fast.challenge is less than dirt rally.theres nothing wrong with handling cars easier.the thing is the cars that arent handling right.when you drive a escort mk2 like its front wheel drive because its almost stablized then what challenge does it present ?

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gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
no rally organisator would be crazy enough to do a stage on such a ridiculous piece of road. Thats why i liked dirt rally, the roads were real, but didnt necessarily like how some "creative freedoms" were taken on various locations, for example to make ouninpohja into a rollercoaster. also straights were hugely reduced because that would just be boring. 

Well, for me im having a HUGE blast driving ouninpohja in RBR and its as accurate as any professional made track.
Well, it's all starting to make sense. You like swinging a car through wide flat bends where the car behaves pretty much consistently all the time. RBR is the perfect game for you then.

For those who actually like to be kept on their toes and constantly react to the variety of challenges that each corner presents, D4 is where it's at. 
Perhaps you shouldnt comment on stuff you clearly have no experience in.
No? So RBR Finland doesn't have wide open corners with hardly any cambers, and if there is one it's a very simple one where the car will tend to slide a bit off, sort of physics?

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griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
Sheesh. The rear started to slide on corner entry where it was relatively flat. The slide started to run out of momentum and at the same time the front of the car hit the off cambered part which pushed the front towards the outside. This will straighten the car out, no? And this would have happened exactly the same way even if the tyres didn't dig into anything. It's simple physics. 

So how this can look wrong to you is beyond my mental capacity to grasp. It really is. 

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taking advantage of cambers is biggest things about rally in finland. otherwise you just wont have any grip.

Ouninpohja was one example of a stage greatly misrepresented in dirt rally. If you have actually played rbr recently you would know of the great variety of realistic tracks in the game, where as you say you need to stay on your toes and react to variety of challenges, even moreso than in dirt.

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gheeD said:
taking advantage of cambers is biggest things about rally in finland. otherwise you just wont have any grip.

Ouninpohja was one example of a stage greatly misrepresented in dirt rally. If you have actually played rbr recently you would know of the great variety of realistic tracks in the game, where as you say you need to stay on your toes and react to variety of challenges, even moreso than in dirt.
You might be able to take advantage of them, they just don't affect the car as realistically as they do in D4.

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gheeD said:
taking advantage of cambers is biggest things about rally in finland. otherwise you just wont have any grip.

Ouninpohja was one example of a stage greatly misrepresented in dirt rally. If you have actually played rbr recently you would know of the great variety of realistic tracks in the game, where as you say you need to stay on your toes and react to variety of challenges, even moreso than in dirt.
Ouninpohja in Loeb Rally Evo is another example of a stage being vastly different than the way it was represented in DiRT Rally.

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Headlong said:
You might be able to take advantage of them, they just don't affect the car as realistically as they do in D4.
Then perhaps explain why you think that way.  

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Headlong said:

griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
Sheesh. The rear started to slide on corner entry where it was relatively flat. The slide started to run out of momentum and at the same time the front of the car hit the off cambered part which pushed the front towards the outside. This will straighten the car out, no? And this would have happened exactly the same way even if the tyres didn't dig into anything. It's simple physics. 

So how this can look wrong to you is beyond my mental capacity to grasp. It really is. 
There rear tires were on OFF/DOWNWARD camber!!!  You should have LESS grip on the rear tires!  God damn you are frustrating.

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gheeD said:
taking advantage of cambers is biggest things about rally in finland. otherwise you just wont have any grip.

Ouninpohja was one example of a stage greatly misrepresented in dirt rally. If you have actually played rbr recently you would know of the great variety of realistic tracks in the game, where as you say you need to stay on your toes and react to variety of challenges, even moreso than in dirt.
Ouninpohja in Loeb Rally Evo is another example of a stage being vastly different than the way it was represented in DiRT Rally.
Ouninpohja in Dirt Rally is actually quite a bit off. It's like on steroids. That might also be partially the reason people critisized that cars were flying too much in DR. The game actually makes quite a lot more sense in VR because you see the elevations, cambers and ruts like they truly are. It's night and day difference to 2d presentation. But that's another subject..

On the other hand there were still places completely lacking elevations like Ounin talo. Everyone who's been there in real life will see that ver-ry clearly.

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