Jump to content
DIRT 5 - Chat about the game and get support here. Read more... ×
Christmas Period - Codemasters Staff and Support Read more... ×

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

Recommended Posts

griev0r said:
Headlong said:

griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
Sheesh. The rear started to slide on corner entry where it was relatively flat. The slide started to run out of momentum and at the same time the front of the car hit the off cambered part which pushed the front towards the outside. This will straighten the car out, no? And this would have happened exactly the same way even if the tyres didn't dig into anything. It's simple physics. 

So how this can look wrong to you is beyond my mental capacity to grasp. It really is. 
There rear tires were on OFF/DOWNWARD camber!!!  You should have LESS grip on the rear tires!  God damn you are frustrating.
The camber starts to drop off further downhill. The rear tyres were already coming to the end of their sliding phase when the front wheels hit the more pronounced off cambered part. It was the almost perfect synchronisation of these two events that caused the car to straighten out a little. He actually managed to induce a bit oversteer in the last phase of the event captured in the vid by flooring the throttle, and because the rear tyres then hit the more pronounce off cambered bit. 

All this is normal, realistic, and it has to be said beautifully simulated, piece of car behaviour. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

gheeD said:
Headlong said:
You might be able to take advantage of them, they just don't affect the car as realistically as they do in D4.
Then perhaps explain why you think that way.  
Well, are the cambers inconsistent and do they affect each corner of the car accordingly based on the position of the tyres, the load on each one, the slip angle and the elevation changes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
Headlong said:
You might be able to take advantage of them, they just don't affect the car as realistically as they do in D4.
Then perhaps explain why you think that way.  
Well, are the cambers inconsistent and do they affect each corner of the car accordingly based on the position of the tyres, the load on each one, the slip angle and the elevation changes?
You answered me like you knew something about rbr, so why are you asking me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gheeD said:
taking advantage of cambers is biggest things about rally in finland. otherwise you just wont have any grip.

Ouninpohja was one example of a stage greatly misrepresented in dirt rally. If you have actually played rbr recently you would know of the great variety of realistic tracks in the game, where as you say you need to stay on your toes and react to variety of challenges, even moreso than in dirt.
Ouninpohja in Loeb Rally Evo is another example of a stage being vastly different than the way it was represented in DiRT Rally.
Ouninpohja in Dirt Rally is actually quite a bit off. It's like on steroids. That might also be partially the reason people critisized that cars were flying too much in DR. The game actually makes quite a lot more sense in VR because you see the elevations, cambers and ruts like they truly are. It's night and day difference to 2d presentation. But that's another subject..

On the other hand there were still places completely lacking elevations like Ounin talo. Everyone who's been there in real life will see that ver-ry clearly.
Stages in DR were created for the first iteration of physics. After the adjustments, the cars started to fly. I assume the work on Finland was started a lot earlier than V2 came up so probably that's why jumps feel exaggerated. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a perfect example of how many cars behave in D4 at the moment. 

Time stamped.

Not sure if the time stamping worked. The example is at 55 seconds.

https://youtu.be/0cKAfpz-liE?t=56s


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So basically as Paul Coleman explained, the reason why the cars in Dirt Rally behaved like they behave was not due to proper data and the simulation of a realistic physics engine but actually quite the opposite. Since it was a primitive engine the car behaviour was less simulated by proper data and therefore felt looser and more unpredictable. And now with proper data in Dirt 4 engine they actually found that the cars behave way more consistent. That means any comparison to DR is invalid and if cars felt more convincing, realistic it actually was more of a "coincidence" if I understood this correctly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bogani said:
This is a perfect example of how many cars behave in D4 at the moment. 

Time stamped.

Not sure if the time stamping worked. The example is at 55 seconds.

https://youtu.be/0cKAfpz-liE?t=56s


Just look how that impact of gravel broke the rear bumper on that car. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Headlong - since the point keeps being hammered on here, where is the visual representation that shows how deep the ruts or gravel-sections are that are holding the rear tires on track? I'm not seeing it, and why do those rut's / deep gravel seem to be almost everywhere? Where's the variation? Surely there are sections of dry compacted gravel and dirt that remain intact - acting more like pavement than gravel; I can walk out on my driveway and the conditions can vary greatly according to moisture content, temperature and traffic. Dry gravel / dirt sections should be loose and the car may feel unstable and wander a bit on loose gravel. The best tires / suspensions in the world are not going to change that by much on loose dry gravel; not sliding at speed in those turns is the challenge - no matter what you are driving.

I love that CM has advanced the physics modeling but, there should be no question that something is off - at least in regard to the FWD / AWD car behavior and yes, how it feels does matter - it's a huge part of why we play racing-sims. It matters that the game strikes a balance between realism / being believable but, also intuitive / exciting and fun.  Dirt4 is not a Pro-driver Simulator AFAIK, and Sim-mode is intended for Sim-players yet you are telling us why we are all wrong when we say some things just don't feel right, don't match up with our RL driving experience - as limited as it may be, therefor it's invalid. You say our feelings regarding handling are invalid and are based on invalid RL experience; our other Sim-racing experience is not valid either so perhaps Dirt4 was made just to satisfy you? Awesome.

Pretty much every Sim-racer I know and interact with that has tried Dirt4 has either refunded it or kept it while hoping that some things will be addressed; and many with interest in Rally are staying away due the reports from others that have tried it. The vast majority of players suited to Sim-mode are rejecting the game and that says something is not right. Invalidating years, maybe decades of experience in other Sim's is probably not a good strategy either.

Many are saying that setup changes can solve some/most of the handling issues because the defaults are designed for less experienced / game-pad players. Hello - isn't that what assists and or aids are for? Isn't that why there is a gamer mode - really? SMS pulled the same stunt and PC1 became a joke within the Sim-community. PC2 now faces a monumental accomplishment to win back Sim-racers because of it. Yes, PC1 was a financial success for the studio but, they are going to have to work much harder to overcome doubts of Sim-players as a result of not understanding the target audience.

Personally, I'm fine with learning how to drive in new ways with a Rally Sim that challenges me and engages my love of Race-Craft but, it also has to make sense in ways I can relate to. You have RL Rally training - good for you, and I can respect that you offer a rare perspective among Dirt4 players but, if we make comparisons to other titles such as AC / AMS (RallyX too) / rF2 / iRacing in regard to tarmac handling while you discount their validity, you just lost me.

When I can take almost any car in any one of those titles and induce a slide on tarmac quite easily but, I can't do it on dirt - that's going to raise some eyebrows for sure. Granted, there are conditions where dirt / gravel can be really sticky and the adhesion is quite impressive , rut's can be unyielding but, certainly not as consistently as they are represented in Dirt4 and even then, it doesn't explain some of the behaviors we experience here. If such conditions cannot be represented graphically, then perhaps some handling considerations made to be made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"yeah i actually am finding my biggest gripe with the series that the stages have heavily unrealistic profiles. such stages would never be allowed to be driven in real life"

Ive seen worse gheeD, far worse, as a specator and from inside a car.

As i said before ive been in a rally that ripped the bumbers off; side indicator lenses, and number plates, there were actual rocks on some corners, lol, and then theres the tracks in the wrc over the years, breaking cars before they could finish and having crazy camber variations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Point i was getting at with my remark about the bumper is that the sort of behaviour in the rx video is because the car literally is pushing against a dirt wall. Thats whats straightening it, not a smooth gravel surface where the tyre comes to the end of its slide and digs into the gravel. All sort of visual guides when you come into a turn by all logic say you should be able to flick the car into the corner, stay on the throttle and keep the rear end stepped out. Then suddenly that motion stops like you hit a gravel wall and the front end is straightened and you understeer into ditch on outside of the curve if you are not skilled with handling a car.


And id like to know where youve been on the types of rollercoasters that some of the blocks in wales generated stages can be lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are we really still discussing if there is an issue with the rear?
It has been well established and also admitted by the Devs.

And please, stop acting like powersliding is something only some savants can do...
You don't have to be Loeb or Solberg to do that. That's not what makes them so great. What makes them so good is
- the ability to be consistent
- in driving through every unknown turn
- at maximum speed (often sideways)
- without crashing
- over a long peroid of time
- under stress during a hard competition
etc.

Doing some power oversteer after apex or at the exit of a turn in a well powered AWD/ RWD car does not require magic talents (or crazy setups or super special tyre/surface combinations). That is something pretty much everyone with a drivers license and some days of training can achieve, either in a real car or in front of a screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Headlong said:
The camber starts to drop off further downhill. The rear tyres were already coming to the end of their sliding phase when the front wheels hit the more pronounced off cambered part. It was the almost perfect synchronisation of these two events that caused the car to straighten out a little. He actually managed to induce a bit oversteer in the last phase of the event captured in the vid by flooring the throttle, and because the rear tyres then hit the more pronounce off cambered bit. 

All this is normal, realistic, and it has to be said beautifully simulated, piece of car behaviour. 

I'll tell you something interesting. The car doesn't seem to be actually sliding(no loss of traction from the rear) on the entry. It look more like excessive slip angle that make the car oversteering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Headlong
Think we have all had enough of your delusional comments. If the game is perfect why are you not playing it instead of making condescending remarks to well-respected community members all day for the sole reason of having a different opinion on matters. You may think you know your stuff but you clearly don't, I really don't care for your supposed credentials - it's meaningless when you spout such utter bullshit. Any idiot should be able to drift, or force oversteer and powerslide around a corner with control in something such as an Mk2. The actual trick is being fast, consistent, have the nerve and using risk management over the length of a rallystage. Ever attend a local rallye before?
Fact of the matter is that many cars in DiRT 4 consistently fail to be believable in gravel. Most the users here are all rallye enthusiasts and have seen enough real rally to conclude that DiRT 4 too often looks nothing like real rallye. Not sure whether you have a personal stake in it but you are blind for the game's faults and you are too arrogant to accept anyone else's opinion.

I made this thread to present Codemaster's a compilation of feedback from community members so they may want to take it into consideration when they undoubtedly improve upon their product. Not to have shit flinging contests and snarky remarks about RBR kids who don't know nothing about car physics. You are putting the attention all on yourself for the benefit of absolutely no-one. I'm sure Codemasters devs themselves are able to distinguish usuable feedback from the useless feedback, since they actually hold the code and know how it works - we're here just trying to translate how the cars feels in our hands to words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Meanwhile, Headstrong gets himself ready to type another reply...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Headlong said:
KevM said:
Let's get back to basics here.

I can confirm, that from personal experience, driving a Rally car IS easy.  Particularly a rear wheel drive one.  It's really easy, because it's really really intuitive.  A mk2 Escort is possibly thee most intuitive chassis ever on the mainstream market, ever!!  Driving the car fast, on a narrow stage is where the challenge lies

Dirt Rally felt really intuitive also.  F#ck physics, It just had the right 'feel'. Simple as that.  It steered as it should, the throttle & brakes did as they should.  & the challenge was, driving the car down a stage, fast!

Its was simple as that & brilliant because of it
I can also confirm from personal experience that driving a rally car is easy -- it's just driving a car after all.  But driving it hard, fast and on the limit and under complete control and through the kinds of multi- surface, multi-cambered, bumpy, uphill, downhill, blind and deceptive corners that we have in D4, that's another world, and way beyond what the majority of the population is capable of. 
Only 130bhp, in the dry, with me driving.  And I'm not Ari Vatinen, far from it.  Understeer doesn't happen.  It's constant management of oversteer 

https://youtu.be/BgJUxz3svTk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KevM said:
Headlong said:
KevM said:
Let's get back to basics here.

I can confirm, that from personal experience, driving a Rally car IS easy.  Particularly a rear wheel drive one.  It's really easy, because it's really really intuitive.  A mk2 Escort is possibly thee most intuitive chassis ever on the mainstream market, ever!!  Driving the car fast, on a narrow stage is where the challenge lies

Dirt Rally felt really intuitive also.  F#ck physics, It just had the right 'feel'. Simple as that.  It steered as it should, the throttle & brakes did as they should.  & the challenge was, driving the car down a stage, fast!

Its was simple as that & brilliant because of it
I can also confirm from personal experience that driving a rally car is easy -- it's just driving a car after all.  But driving it hard, fast and on the limit and under complete control and through the kinds of multi- surface, multi-cambered, bumpy, uphill, downhill, blind and deceptive corners that we have in D4, that's another world, and way beyond what the majority of the population is capable of. 
Only 130bhp, in the dry, with me driving.  And I'm not Ari Vatinen, far from it.  Understeer doesn't happen.  It's constant management of oversteer 

https://youtu.be/BgJUxz3svTk
Great, great video! Of course Headlong will start a reply saying your driving sucks, but I wanted to tell you that you drive very well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Headlong said:
bogani said:
Headlong said:

bogani said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

And based on what am I in a position to agree or disagree? I've never driven this car in real life, but it would seem to me that a car that weighs close to a tonne and has 240 bhp isn't going to go nuts with the wheelspin. Plus it can wheelspin, about the amount I imagine it should given its specs.
If you put it like that none of our opinions in here are valid as pretty much zero of us drove any of the actual cars in game. Yet you are constantly claiming how wrong people are in here and know nothing about car dynamics. Thank god that you come in here explaining to us all what is right and wrong!
Yes, I am saying that unless you've driven a particular car in real life and in similar conditions you are not qualified to comment on the nuances of its behaviour. 

I have already said many times that even though I am able to comment on the general physics and car behaviour due to my training in design and engineering and based on my rally driving experience, I would not dream of advising Codies on the finer points of various car's behaviour. That would just be downright nutty. 
If a game makes Ford Fiesta WRC 2017 brakes from 200 km/h to 0 km/h in 1 meter distance on wet tarmac you are not entitled to comment on it's unrealistic behaviour then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Even my old Dirt 3 Mk2 kicked the arse out on gravel, & that game was a grip-fest!!

https://youtu.be/eCa7wwVtB7Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pfft gheeD, even the stocking grounds (walters arena) tracks here are more rough than the wales stages in D4  :D :D :D :D


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KevM said:
Only 130bhp, in the dry, with me driving.  And I'm not Ari Vatinen, far from it.  Understeer doesn't happen.  It's constant management of oversteer 

https://youtu.be/BgJUxz3svTk
And here he is, the next Colin McRae.
One of only some very few people being able to powerslide. Look at the insane speed he needed to throw the car into any turn going sideways and maintaining the drift. Very highly skilled and talented.

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KevM said:
Only 130bhp, in the dry, with me driving.  And I'm not Ari Vatinen, far from it.  Understeer doesn't happen.  It's constant management of oversteer 

https://youtu.be/BgJUxz3svTk
And here he is, the next Colin McRae.
One of only some very few people being able to powerslide. Look at the insane speed he needed to throw the car into any turn going sideways and maintaining the drift. Very highly skilled and talented.

;)
Not to mention a mental power-to-weight ratio.  Took years & years of strict training regime to hone my talents...

(or about 3 laps in a really intuitive car, with a mad giggling instructor).  Nothing difficult at all...


What would have been difficult as a driver, would have been to go full WOT mid-corner & manage chronic nose-push!!!??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
guys other than this war you are feeding, have you tried the game after this "differential tuning" fix?
what is your opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
guys other than this war you are feeding, have you tried the game after this "differential tuning" fix?
what is your opinion?
Yup, just tried. I have a feeling a preload parameter in my Mitsu R5 used to make the car more oversteer when fully locked (contrary to the ingame description), but now fully unlocked works better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×