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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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The car movement is all off...                       

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OK, so I just tried Baha race for the first time, just to check how cars behave in deep gravel that gives cars tons of lateral grip. Well, apparently Wales is Sahara compared to those tracks. No weird recovering, no problem powersliding.
EDIT:
I don't know if that's not a placebo effect, but I have a feeling that Hyundai R5 is actaully sliding much better. Still long slides are impossible, but it is really nice otherwise.

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Im on xbox so im not lucky enough to have the patch yet. Its probably working its way throuhh a jelly doughnut covered server as we speak  :D

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guys other than this war you are feeding, have you tried the game after this "differential tuning" fix?
what is your opinion?
IMHO everything is feeling same. It's only the fix of description about differential tuning. 

SamRWD said:
OK, so I just tried Baha race for the first time, just to check how cars behave in deep gravel that gives cars tons of lateral grip. Well, apparently Wales is Sahara compared to those tracks. No weird recovering, no problem powersliding.
EDIT:
I don't know if that's not a placebo effect, but I have a feeling that Hyundai R5 is actaully sliding much better. Still long slides are impossible, but it is really nice otherwise.

There are cars that feel better. Focus 07 is a great example of that. 

/E: Retested on Scoobie 01, no changes in behaviour of car, only description of diffs. 

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It's great that they pushed the update to all platforms together, y'no, to keep the cross-platform boards nice and relevant lol

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I!m pretty sure the diff thing was that the tourque bias slider was wrong before. Only affected 4WD cars. Full front meant full rear vice versa. It was a discovery of @Evilsmurf

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@bogani Thanks for clearing that up!  Was wondering what that change was about.


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BTW another R5 footage, this time with surface that resembles what one of users here thinks Wales looks like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslQBErglmU

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KevM said:
Meanwhile, Headstrong gets himself ready to type another reply...


No, forget it. It seems to me that philistines got a really good rally sim that they're not capable of appreciating and now they're whining because the cars don't slide by themselves which is what they're accustomed to.

So if you guys want to flood this thread with your FEELINGS and Unsubstantiated OPINIONS  about how rally cars really behave go ahead. I'm out. I've tired my best here but it's literally like talking to a brick wall. 


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhyaAPsT1LU                                                                                                    
                                                                                       

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dgeesi0 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhyaAPsT1LU                                                                                                    
                                                                                       
Thank you, I love this song. Freddie Mercury was a legend even though in the beginning the philistines thought he was a talentless drip. They were all convinced they knew more about music than he did. And how did that turn out for them? 

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SamRWD said:
BTW another R5 footage, this time with surface that resembles what one of users here thinks Wales looks like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslQBErglmU
omg what is that arcade trash they aren't powersliding through every corner!!!

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Headlong said:
So if you guys want to flood this thread with your FEELINGS and Unsubstantiated OPINIONS  about how rally cars really behave go ahead. I'm out. I've tired my best here but it's literally like talking to a brick wall. 


What about the minor fact that I posted a video of myself power-sliding an underpowered Mk2 Escort corner after corner in the dry at a local Rally school a few years ago?

I have more 'me sliding a rear wheel drive car' videos.  If you need any more to substantiate things, just drop me a line (if you haven't snorted them all)  :D


PS: you can edit posts, you don't need to quote yourself to add to your strops... lol

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bogani said:
I!m pretty sure the diff thing was that the tourque bias slider was wrong before. Only affected 4WD cars. Full front meant full rear vice versa. It was a discovery of @Evilsmurf
That definitely is going to effect a lot of my setups. I'm almost always 60%+ to the rear when that's available to tune. Now I'll be interested to see how they feel once set properly as I've apparently been inducing more understeer on almost all of the 4wd cars.

So another thing I've been noticing as I've been driving the group b pug more. I get this ridiculous pendulum effect when driving at the limit that gets worse and worse the more you try to correct it. I recall some people talking way back in this thread about something similar. Anyone ever get a fix as it almost feels like it's a ffb or wheel setting problem more than anything else.

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lower torque alignment .                                                                                                                                            

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Headlong said:

kobeshow said:
Personally I can see what @gheeD is saying, and I agree with him.
Particularly in the example he posted, first of all the tires would not dig in so deep into the relatively firm welsh gravel that the slide completely stops, especially not on a downhill corner on the outside camber, but what he has to do is steer into the corner just to try and keep the rear end out.
I have yet to see any video that  shows a RWD handle like this. Any video I have seen, the driver always has to countersteer or at least keep the wheel straight when going on the throttle. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
I believe that the term powersliding originates from the fact that you can control the slide with your power, which I have yet to succesfully do in any car, the only time I can slide is when I just fling the car so fast into the corner that it bogs down so far into the corner that I can power straight out, I have never managed to control the slide itsself with the throttle (ie. make it a bit wider/shorter/hold it RIIIIGHT there).
The problem is also prominent in AWD cars, but the behavior can be tuned out somewhat.

(for the record: tires digging into gravel are a thing, and in general I think that D4's simulation engine is very much improved, but I feel that there need to be some tweaks for edge cases like this)

 

The videos of cars handling like this are rare because the types of corners with multiple cambers, bumps depressions, ruts and different compositions are rare in real life. Codies wanted to make the topography of the stages as varied, unpredictable and as challenging as possible, because they thought that that's what people wanted based on the feedback from DR. And now that they've delivered what people seemingly wanted, they have a bunch of whining from a few people. What do people want? 
I guess the majority of DiRT Rally fans assumed/expected the 'rally' part to DiRT 4 to be a step-up, but got a bit of a surprise...

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Headlong said:

bogani said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:
gheeD said:
Headlong said:

gheeD said:
No. and none of that praise of physics helps anyone except yourself feel better than everyone else. if you want to make such claims please elaborate in detail how that is. its only fair when you ask of others the same thing.

So far ive posted a video with the comment im really puzzled by this behaviour as i cant figure it out, asking for explanation and you ridicule me saying how i infact showed how extremely realistic it all is. Ive yet to hear any indepth knowledge about vehicular dynamics that you claim to know so much about.
Would you like me to show you why that braking distance video does not demonstrate any flaws in the physics, just like the other video didn't. Or are you going to be able to figure it out by yourself? 
No, dont try to intentionally misunderstand me. Im talking about the video which i posted, not what hawku posted, where im doing a powerslide downhill and the rear abruptly stops sliding and front end swings straight causing me to **** up the corner.
The one where the rear end digs into softer gravel and loses a bit of momentum and the front of the car hits the off camber, depressed part first and therefore understeers, which effectively straightens the car out? What's wrong with any of that. Not only is this realistic behaviour, but it's also precisely the kind of thing that makes rally such a unique discipline and was sadly missing from rally sims until now. 
in the first part of the description lies my issue. I believe the gravel physics are way too strong for these cars with improved physics. Real life ive never seen a rwd rally car have such behaviour, especially going downhill with much speed. And on such gravel surface as what was shown in wales tyres do not dig into anything. its a thin sheet of loose gravel on top of hard surface underneath and the tyre will spin on it kicking behind the loose surface gravel, but it wont "dig" into anything. That would maybe be the case in greece, which i suspect these surface physics are made for and not 1. changed for dirt4 and 2. simply applying same behaviour of gravel in rough greece and wales. 
Sorry GheeD, but there are too many beliefs and assumptions here. What's needed is something substantial, which you don't seem to have.

If if I were you, I would post that video in the D4 appreciation thread and be done with it, 
Once again instead of having a proper argument that might lead to something constructive, you deflect actual feedback. show me a clip of a historic rally in wales where any kind of escort digs into gravel during a corner and abruptly ends a slide. 


Instead of attacking users you should attack the argument and disprove it.
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/yMIBzBJxzWY
I wish i could drive such a stage in dirt 4. But i didnt observe any behaviour which i was talking about and showed on my video. What timestamp are you talking about? Also wish i could hang the rear on grass off the track like he does, such actions will cause the rear accelerate into a spin.
Doesn't look that different from the way I drive it in D4 if I'm honest. Even in this video it looks like a very heavy, lazy car that needs to be muscled. I think think they're trying to simulate those qualities in D4. Otherwise they would have made it handle like the Opel or the Abarth, both of which are nimbler and more easily manoeuvrable. 
Didn't you already agree with that on throttle behaviour could use some tweaking? No?

And based on what am I in a position to agree or disagree? I've never driven this car in real life, but it would seem to me that a car that weighs close to a tonne and has 240 bhp isn't going to go nuts with the wheelspin. Plus it can wheelspin, about the amount I imagine it should given its specs.
@Headlong did you enjoy DiRT Rally at all?

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griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
How did CM respond to these forums/threads in DR?  Do they read these then reply within the thread?  Or is there another place where they officially say stuff , post some sort of official statement?

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" The rear tyres were already coming to the end of their sliding phase..." when the front wheels hit the more pronounced off cambered part. It was the almost perfect synchronisation of these two events that caused the car to straighten out a little. He actually managed to induce a bit oversteer in the last phase of the event captured in the vid by flooring the throttle, and because the rear tyres then hit the more pronounce off cambered bit. 

All this is normal, realistic, and it has to be said beautifully simulated, piece of car behaviour. 
@Headlong how do you know that they were?...

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Are we really still discussing if there is an issue with the rear?
It has been well established and also admitted by the Devs.


@WeamDreaver what post/thread/website do we go to in order to here the latest comments etc from 'the Devs'??  Cheers

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SamRWD said:
OK, so I just tried Baha race for the first time, just to check how cars behave in deep gravel that gives cars tons of lateral grip. Well, apparently Wales is Sahara compared to those tracks. No weird recovering, no problem powersliding.
EDIT:
I don't know if that's not a placebo effect, but I have a feeling that Hyundai R5 is actaully sliding much better. Still long slides are impossible, but it is really nice otherwise.
What is Baha??

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dgeesi0 said:
lower torque alignment .                                                                                                                                            
You mean self aligning torque?

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griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
How did CM respond to these forums/threads in DR?  Do they read these then reply within the thread?  Or is there another place where they officially say stuff , post some sort of official statement?
They have said they are looking into it but don't want to jump the gun and release a quick fix that will break other things in an effort to fix this. Similar to how v2 physics in dr made a number of other problems while fixing the initial problems.

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Scyy said:
griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
How did CM respond to these forums/threads in DR?  Do they read these then reply within the thread?  Or is there another place where they officially say stuff , post some sort of official statement?
They have said they are looking into it but don't want to jump the gun and release a quick fix that will break other things in an effort to fix this. Similar to how v2 physics in dr made a number of other problems while fixing the initial problems.
Sorry, what I mean is, where do you find where CM releases official 'statements'?  What thread do they converse on?

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Scyy said:
griev0r said:
Headlong said:
If you watch the vid that Gheed posted of the car sliding the rear end and then getting a ton of understeer as the rear end bites and the front of the car hits the off cambered and depressed part of the downhill hairpin, and then as he gets on throttle he gets oversteer as the back of the car then hits the depressed off cambered side. I mean this is truly superb.
I truly don't get this point of view.  It was a downhill hairpin, he started to slide and the rear tires stepped out - on an off camber part of the road I might add - then instantly gripped and pointed the car forward.  It then proceeded to understeer like a dump truck.  What exactly did it dig into?  He was still on the road, and unless that certain part was the softest dirt known to man that shouldn't have happened.

This is the gif he is talking about, and it looks so so wrong to me.  It's pretty much widely agreed that this car in particular is one of the worst offenders in the game when it comes to this anti oversteer/straightening the car out.
https://streamable.com/8tszr

And don't get me wrong, I love the game but it definitely needs some adjustments.  That's why we are here giving feedback.  CM were fantastic listening to the community with DR, so I have high hopes they will iron these things out.
How did CM respond to these forums/threads in DR?  Do they read these then reply within the thread?  Or is there another place where they officially say stuff , post some sort of official statement?
They have said they are looking into it but don't want to jump the gun and release a quick fix that will break other things in an effort to fix this. Similar to how v2 physics in dr made a number of other problems while fixing the initial problems.
Sorry, what I mean is, where do you find where CM releases official 'statements'?  What thread do they converse on?
Whoops a little out of it and misread your post. Usually the dirty gossip thread is where they interact and answer questions. @KickUp @Hatward @ChristinaMc and @urgaffel are the main cm employees that post there.

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