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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
Owned
Thank you for your effort, terrific job!
What an unfortunate situation for some of you guys. Now you'll have to go back to playing RBR, where the physics are simulated so perfectly that it's literally like driving a car in real life. 
No, it is not. No, we don't. They're not.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
So how does this compare to the same car in real life? 100-0 in 25 meters doesn't seem to be that far off to me, especially given that you braked uphill and into a compression quite a few times. So are the braking distances off by what 5 meters, and does that mean that the physics are all screwed up now? 
It's more than that, because all he does is press a brake. You can shorten that distance even more if you brake properly. Unless this game is optimized for a gamepad and you don't need to worry about that because of gameplay/ physics compromises that had to be made.
5 meters? Let's say it is that- it is 1/5th of the 25 m. It is a lot. There are not screwed now, they were since the beginning, you just start to slowly realise that now.
Of course the game is optimised for gamepad. If he's playing on gamepad then that would explain the shorter braking distances, because with pedals I really don't think I'm getting such short braking distances. Like Ive said yesterday, I'm having to initiate the braking very early, otherwise I lock the fronts and go straight on, and if change the brake bias more rearward I lose the rear. 

Yon know, in all honesty I didn't think we would be talking about braking here given how improved it is here over DR. I mean threshold braking is now a massive thing, the car squirms and weaves under braking like in real life, the brakes actually transfer the weight to the front axle which you can feel through the steering wheel and therefore this enables you to start your turn in at the most auspicious time etc. I mean it really is so, so much better than in DR.

I kind of feel that this whole discussion has been going for as long as it has because you guys are on pads, and I suspect that the game just isnt good on a pad. 

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
So how does this compare to the same car in real life? 100-0 in 25 meters doesn't seem to be that far off to me, especially given that you braked uphill and into a compression quite a few times. So are the braking distances off by what 5 meters, and does that mean that the physics are all screwed up now? 
It's more than that, because all he does is press a brake. You can shorten that distance even more if you brake properly. Unless this game is optimized for a gamepad and you don't need to worry about that because of gameplay/ physics compromises that had to be made.
5 meters? Let's say it is that- it is 1/5th of the 25 m. It is a lot. There are not screwed now, they were since the beginning, you just start to slowly realise that now.
Of course the game is optimised for gamepad. If he's playing on gamepad then that would explain the shorter braking distances, because with pedals I really don't think I'm getting such short braking distances. Like Ive said yesterday, I'm having to initiate the braking very early, otherwise I lock the fronts and go straight on, and if change the brake bias more rearward I lose the rear. 

Yon know, in all honesty I didn't think we would be talking about braking here given how improved it is here over DR. I mean threshold braking is now a massive thing, the car squirms and weaves under braking like in real life, the brakes actually transfer the weight to the front axle which you can feel through the steering wheel and therefore this enables you to start your turn in at the most auspicious time etc. I mean it really is so, so much better than in DR.

I kind of feel that this whole discussion has been going for as long as it has because you guys are on pads, and I suspect that the game just isnt good on a pad. 

If it is optimised for a gamepad, then it is not a simulator. It is not possible to drive a real world rally car with limited input controls such as gamepad. If you want to enable players to do so, you need to make compromises.

Dirt Rally was terrible sim, but a nice game. Braking distances were just silly back then. I was pointing that out numerous times, I also had other complains regarding physics. Most of them got adressed in D4, however it is still far from realistic. Better than DR is not enough, we were told we are getting a sim this time.

From what I know most of active users here in this topic (including me) use steering wheels.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
So how does this compare to the same car in real life? 100-0 in 25 meters doesn't seem to be that far off to me, especially given that you braked uphill and into a compression quite a few times. So are the braking distances off by what 5 meters, and does that mean that the physics are all screwed up now? 
It's more than that, because all he does is press a brake. You can shorten that distance even more if you brake properly. Unless this game is optimized for a gamepad and you don't need to worry about that because of gameplay/ physics compromises that had to be made.
5 meters? Let's say it is that- it is 1/5th of the 25 m. It is a lot. There are not screwed now, they were since the beginning, you just start to slowly realise that now.
Of course the game is optimised for gamepad. If he's playing on gamepad then that would explain the shorter braking distances, because with pedals I really don't think I'm getting such short braking distances. Like Ive said yesterday, I'm having to initiate the braking very early, otherwise I lock the fronts and go straight on, and if change the brake bias more rearward I lose the rear. 

Yon know, in all honesty I didn't think we would be talking about braking here given how improved it is here over DR. I mean threshold braking is now a massive thing, the car squirms and weaves under braking like in real life, the brakes actually transfer the weight to the front axle which you can feel through the steering wheel and therefore this enables you to start your turn in at the most auspicious time etc. I mean it really is so, so much better than in DR.

I kind of feel that this whole discussion has been going for as long as it has because you guys are on pads, and I suspect that the game just isnt good on a pad. 

If it is optimised for a gamepad, then it is not a simulator. It is not possible to drive a real world rally car with limited input controls such as gamepad. If you want to enable players to do so, you need to make compromises.

Dirt Rally was terrible sim, but a nice game. Braking distances were just silly back then. I was pointing that out numerous times, I also had other complains regarding physics. Most of them got adressed in D4, however it is still far from realistic. Better than DR is not enough, we were told we are getting a sim this time.

From what I know most of active users here in this topic (including me) use steering wheels.
There is no official consensus on what is and isn't a simulator, so you can define it however you like. With a proper set up and with a decent forcefeedback wheel it certainly does feel very realistic, and to me this is the best representation yet of what driving a rally car is like. And really, if I game is not a simulator there is no need to optimise it for pad, since you can make the actual physics more forgiving. So the fact that it is optimised for pad actually suggests the exact opposite of what you think it suggests. 

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 

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Headlong said:

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 
You certainly used your logic here, no doubt. Not the first time we can witness it.

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
So how does this compare to the same car in real life? 100-0 in 25 meters doesn't seem to be that far off to me, especially given that you braked uphill and into a compression quite a few times. So are the braking distances off by what 5 meters, and does that mean that the physics are all screwed up now? 
It's more than that, because all he does is press a brake. You can shorten that distance even more if you brake properly. Unless this game is optimized for a gamepad and you don't need to worry about that because of gameplay/ physics compromises that had to be made.
5 meters? Let's say it is that- it is 1/5th of the 25 m. It is a lot. There are not screwed now, they were since the beginning, you just start to slowly realise that now.
Of course the game is optimised for gamepad. If he's playing on gamepad then that would explain the shorter braking distances, because with pedals I really don't think I'm getting such short braking distances. Like Ive said yesterday, I'm having to initiate the braking very early, otherwise I lock the fronts and go straight on, and if change the brake bias more rearward I lose the rear. 

Yon know, in all honesty I didn't think we would be talking about braking here given how improved it is here over DR. I mean threshold braking is now a massive thing, the car squirms and weaves under braking like in real life, the brakes actually transfer the weight to the front axle which you can feel through the steering wheel and therefore this enables you to start your turn in at the most auspicious time etc. I mean it really is so, so much better than in DR.

I kind of feel that this whole discussion has been going for as long as it has because you guys are on pads, and I suspect that the game just isnt good on a pad. 

I posted this video to this thread already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCW6WVLY1uw

Stopping time is the same with a wheel as with a gamepad.
Stopping time is much longer if you try to threshold brake.

Why don't you just try it by yourself?
Record the game at 60fps and stop the car from 100 to 0 km/h with full braking force. Do multiple stops while recording the game.
You can measure the stopping times from the video by comparing the lap time at 100 km/h and lap time at 0 km/h.

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So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).

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hawku0 said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
hawku0 said:
Headlong said:

Do you have the exact figures for how much off the stopping distances are?

Rally cars don't have particularly long braking distances. They can stop from 100kph in under 50 metres, or in just over 2 seconds. Deep, heavy gravel can also sometimes shorten the stopping distance even further. 

Also do you have the exact figures for braking distances on snow tyres?

Ive just driven the Lancia 037 in Australia and the braking distances there seem very long. I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph. The braking distances don't seem off to me there at all. Plus Im finding it very easy to lock up and unsettle the car under braking. Losing the rear is especially easy to do. 
If you want the exact figures then watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3dV4CuR04g

I added two different distance measurements to the 100-0 kmh display and both are showing 25 meter stopping distances.
You can view the video frame by frame and look at the telemetry values.
If you still want to argue those numbers, then you have to say that the physics are wrong.

"I'm having to intitiate braking about 3-4 seconds, or about 100-150 meters, before the tight acute hairpins, which I approach at about 150-170 kph".
Stopping from 150-170 km/h to 0 km/h in 3-4 seconds requires about the same deacceleration rate as stopping from 100 to 0 km/h.
100-0 km/h in 2s, 150-0 km/h in 3s and 200-0 km/h in 4s all have the same deacceleration rate.

From 100 km/h or 27.7778 m/s to 0 km/h in 2 seconds means average deacceleration rate of 13.888 m/s^2 and that is 1.416 G's.
So how does this compare to the same car in real life? 100-0 in 25 meters doesn't seem to be that far off to me, especially given that you braked uphill and into a compression quite a few times. So are the braking distances off by what 5 meters, and does that mean that the physics are all screwed up now? 
It's more than that, because all he does is press a brake. You can shorten that distance even more if you brake properly. Unless this game is optimized for a gamepad and you don't need to worry about that because of gameplay/ physics compromises that had to be made.
5 meters? Let's say it is that- it is 1/5th of the 25 m. It is a lot. There are not screwed now, they were since the beginning, you just start to slowly realise that now.
Of course the game is optimised for gamepad. If he's playing on gamepad then that would explain the shorter braking distances, because with pedals I really don't think I'm getting such short braking distances. Like Ive said yesterday, I'm having to initiate the braking very early, otherwise I lock the fronts and go straight on, and if change the brake bias more rearward I lose the rear. 

Yon know, in all honesty I didn't think we would be talking about braking here given how improved it is here over DR. I mean threshold braking is now a massive thing, the car squirms and weaves under braking like in real life, the brakes actually transfer the weight to the front axle which you can feel through the steering wheel and therefore this enables you to start your turn in at the most auspicious time etc. I mean it really is so, so much better than in DR.

I kind of feel that this whole discussion has been going for as long as it has because you guys are on pads, and I suspect that the game just isnt good on a pad. 

I posted this video to this thread already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCW6WVLY1uw

Stopping time is the same with a wheel as with a gamepad.
Stopping time is much longer if you try to threshold brake.

Why don't you just try it by yourself?
Record the game at 60fps and stop the car from 100 to 0 km/h with full braking force. Do multiple stops while recording the game.
You can measure the stopping times from the video by comparing the lap time at 100 km/h and lap time at 0 km/h.
How do I tell that the stopping distance is the same with pad and wheel from this video? Plus the stopping distances look realistic here. I mean you're pulling 1.6g under braking. Doesn't seem wrong to me. 

But I'll tell you what, I will do do some tests today (I'm on ps4 so don't have telemetry for stopping distances) and if I find that the braking distances are the same on all surfaces, uphill as downhill, same in wet and dry, the cars don't get unsettled over bumps under braking, wheels don't lock then there is an issue here. 

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SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 
You certainly used your logic here, no doubt. Not the first time we can witness it.
So are you on pad or not? This is the third time I'm asking you this. I don't understand why you can't give me a straight answer. 

I think this is very important because the disparity between my experiences and the experiences of some of the posters here can only be accounted for by the fact that they are using pads. 

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SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?
Lateral grip was only verified by me on rally. I did try RX maybe two times, I also did one lap on some Baha style track.
1 RX- after trying rallying it felt spot on. I have a feeling I could slide a car around properly using proper techniques. Degrees of slides seemed to match RL onboard footage. No "self recovery" from oversteer etc.
2 Baha (I am sorry, I am not familiar with landrush disciplines)- despite driving on visually deep gravel with lot's of ruts I could powersteer with no problem at all. Also didn't notice self recovery problem etc.
3 Rally
A) DirtFish- I didn't do a lot on this location. The first Dirt Training drives with Subaru R4 felt superb, although powersliding was a problem due to lack of engine power. BMW lesson also felt really nice
B) Your Track generated stages- lateral grip seems to be an issue with every car I tried on every location, probably Spain feels the best. Sweden feels wrong since you have to get into a corner really fast to make a car slide through a corner. This and the fact that braking distances are terribly short makes Swedish experience feel really weird. Wet conditions make every location feel better (Spain especially), however it still feels like you are driving on a loose deep clay. If you go really fast you can have some fun, but that's forcing a sim to work right. 
I tested cars on Wales since there is a lot of RL footage to relate to. ATM I am focused on AWD cars in R5 class Fiesta R5 feels the worst. Hyundai feels the best, followed by Mistubishi. Subaru R4 also feels really nice, however lack of power is apparent even more (I posted RL JRM footage on previous pages, this car has no problem powersliding). 
Long story short- Spain is passable (although slow speed slides ie on "harpins" feel really artificial, cars don't have enough inertia, so you can just immediately powerslide through without too much worry about a spin etc). Other locations are really bad. That means every car with Subaru N4 being probably the most realistic experience out of bunch IMHO.
EDIT:
Forgot to add- I have not tried D4 on a gamepad. I use steering wheel set only.

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SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 

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Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 
You certainly used your logic here, no doubt. Not the first time we can witness it.
So are you on pad or not? This is the third time I'm asking you this. I don't understand why you can't give me a straight answer. 

I think this is very important because the disparity between my experiences and the experiences of some of the posters here can only be accounted for by the fact that they are using pads. 
 I already answered that question. I am not a gamepad user. I use steering wheel set. Since the game is tailored towards gamepad users I don't enjoy it as much as I would if it included a handling mode for steering wheel users. I hoped simulation mode will deliver, but it doesnt.

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 
You certainly used your logic here, no doubt. Not the first time we can witness it.
So are you on pad or not? This is the third time I'm asking you this. I don't understand why you can't give me a straight answer. 

I think this is very important because the disparity between my experiences and the experiences of some of the posters here can only be accounted for by the fact that they are using pads. 
 I already answered that question. I am not a gamepad user. I use steering wheel set. Since the game is tailored towards gamepad users I don't enjoy it as much as I would if it included a handling mode for steering wheel users. I hoped simulation mode will deliver, but it doesnt.
I don't know where you got this idea from that the game is somehow tailored towards pad users even with a wheel, but whatever....

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

Btw a few days ago I asked you if you were on pad or wheel and you didn't respond. So it sems that you are a pad user after all, which explains a lot. 
You certainly used your logic here, no doubt. Not the first time we can witness it.
So are you on pad or not? This is the third time I'm asking you this. I don't understand why you can't give me a straight answer. 

I think this is very important because the disparity between my experiences and the experiences of some of the posters here can only be accounted for by the fact that they are using pads. 
 I already answered that question. I am not a gamepad user. I use steering wheel set. Since the game is tailored towards gamepad users I don't enjoy it as much as I would if it included a handling mode for steering wheel users. I hoped simulation mode will deliver, but it doesnt.
I don't know where you got this idea from that the game is somehow tailored towards pad users even with a wheel, but whatever....
But you agreed on that already too, didn't you?

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
I'm asking in regards lateral grip only...I think he's been quite clear on where he stands with longitudinal grip.  Yeah I'm just curious with regards to lateral grip between cars & countries...Yes RX seems alright (only had a couple blasts around the English track)...Yeah Spain & Australia pass I think...I don't like Michigan or Wales at this stage...I was driving the Mitsi Evo 6 on Michigan and would experience these snap-over-steer moments which I was pretty 'random' seen as most of the time it would understeer.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 

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I've certainly found playing round with car setups to help a lot with the behaviour of the car (though I have only been playing with the Fort Escort Cosworth  & Ford Focus WRC (2001)),  but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) and look forward to seeing a patch release for this in the not-too-distant future.  I see that a patch has been released by my Steam hasn't downloaded this yet....is there a way to force update DiRT 4 on PC??

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but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) 
None of this has been explained at all, yet alone well explained. 

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not, and then try to make sence of why is that. I gave my answer and explained how it is consistent with unrealistic car behaviour in game. Maybe I am wrong and there is a hidden assist. Maybe game doesn't simulate tyre digging into a loose surface and uses lookup tables that use wrong values. Maybe there is something else wrong (wrong aero parameters, for example they might be providing too much downforce even on low speeds- where they shouldn't do much). There is many IF's, but as long as we can post something scientifically sound we can discuss. I already did my part back in DR days, now I am happy to find there are more people willing to challenge those who prefer compromises over realistic sim physics.

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I've certainly found playing round with car setups to help a lot with the behaviour of the car (though I have only been playing with the Fort Escort Cosworth  & Ford Focus WRC (2001)),  but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) and look forward to seeing a patch release for this in the not-too-distant future.  I see that a patch has been released by my Steam hasn't downloaded this yet....is there a way to force update DiRT 4 on PC??
Try loosening front antiroll and stiffening rear, also LSD drive lock should be set on high lock in the rear and more loose in the front. If you like to use a brake to move cars front more into an inside of a corner during a slide you might increase front LSD braking lock. As for alligment the vertical one (don't remember the name) works best when it's neutral (fully right) on the rear. Try Hyundai R5, you can throw it around allright, also it can react to throttle nice when trying to powersteer. If you like to play with weight transfer, then Subaru R4 is really fun.
As for a patch- in Steam you can manage it somehow probably by clicking right game list/ manage downloads or something. I have mine set to automatic updates on, so it does it by itself.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?

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Headlong said:
but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) 
None of this has been explained at all, yet alone well explained. 
Tbh I got lost in all the counter-productive exchanges between yourself and the rest.  That aside, DiRT 4 has been a learning curve in having to re-setup a car's componentry.  Though frustrating at first, pushing through and experimenting with different setups (didn't really have to do this much in DR imo) has been insightful.  Though I still prefer DiRT Rally over DiRT 4 at the moment (in it's current state), if DiRT 4 is indeed more 'realistic' then I will just need to learn how to drive better.  Imho, I would have preferred the default car setups in DiRT 4, to have been more like how the DiRT Rally car setups felt...then it wouldn't have been such a bridge to cross...to further my point on this, is when you do the DiRT Live Daily Rally Stage challenge where you CAN'T modify the setup of the car, you're stuck with the understeery/boring default setup that DiRT 4 has chosen for you. :(

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

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