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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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MrDeap said:
There a lot of user claim that the tarmac stages is better, but I believe it's worst than DiRT Rally.

Pick some random user replay with DR on tarmac. You can see the car actually understeer without seeing the rear tire having more slip angle at the turn in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYk1zfPmx0

Pick some random user replay with D4 on tarmac. The car rear tire over power the front & the back first start to pivot very strong gaining. The gain max slip angle very quick while having optimal traction very quickly & remain very grippy. The front doesn't even have the time to gain slip angle. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwl79pZa9o

Maybe there's an issue in how the car transition the weight during acceleration & braking putting too much load by favoring grip making the car grip/slip angle too much in an unrealistic way.

Maybe some natural load from gravity that have to be removed when the tire is in contact to the road...

Real Life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOIJMgAHxrM

I always felt DiRT Rally tarmac was quite good actually, maybe superior to the dirt stages dynamically. I think it felt quite spot on dynamically except as if it lacked of resolution, maybe something about the FFB, but had no rubber progressive feeling or whatever.

Although, I got DiRT 4 refunded without even trying it. I watched a lot of gameplay & video. I suppose it still alright to have an opinion on it.

In my opinion it was the FFB that made DR tarmac feel much worse than it actually was.

I do think tarmac is improved in D4, but much of that is because the FFB feels stiffer in D4. I'm not completely happy with tarmac still though. In some cars it still feels like the rear axle is just gliding along rather than gripping the surface. The 2001 Impreza is a great example of that. I just don't like the feel of that car. It isn't nimble at all. It feels like a boat rocking from side to side.

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My feedback after almost 25 hours, 1/3 with Telemetry Tool.

I won't talk about good things, I'm talking related completely to the "Too much grip and broken RWD issue"

TL;DR;
- there's not too much actual GRIP, the grip is a result of:
- - too much force holding the centre mass of the car into the ground --> reason for quick responsiveness and real jumps
- - too much downforce pushing the car into the ground --> reason for not being able to powerslide freely and real jumps
- - no feeling about the rest of the car behind the mass centre

As we all know these first two are things that were broken in DR after applying V2 physics. We don't want that, so I know there won't be rushed update like there was in DR (which pretty much made more things worse than better).

I believe this is the result of few things.
First, is making the momentum effect when going down the hill (which's really good IMHO). If you watch the G-Ball while making an intensive braking down the hill you'll see something.

This, unfortunately, causes a bit weird effect while braking uphill or uphill and over the crest (which usually ends up with spin) - this brings me back to the centre of mass. There's a feeling sometimes, like the physics in the rally is less "aware" (I can't find the right word to use) of the tyre contact with the ground and is based on a single rotating circle at the centre of the car - this happens mostly on gravel with an AWD car (Delta Integrale), you can just quickly countersteer and you're back to a straight line, this causes a lot of over-countersteers and unnatural grip feeling. This is not the case in RX, you can feel the tyres digging/kicking in for grip there.

If you want to test the grip, get @Cortextual Telemetry Tool and drive Peugeot 306 in Australia. Check how much the wheels are spinning if you apply 100% throttle on any gear up to 3rd and how natural the understeer is feeling then.

Now to next thing. Since the centre, Z-axis push/pulling forces seems overpowered the longevity of car doesn't really matter for the sliding - which's not true. Longer cars are easier to oversteer because of the pendulum effect. Subaru GR. A feels like there's nothing behind the centre of mass, nothing's pulling rear end the car once it starts sliding - like it doesn't have any weight and doesn't produce any momentum. That's also why IMO shorter cars are feeling a lot better in D4 (take the Space Star for a ride).

Since the car is actually feeling like a car and not a paper plane in a matter of weight, people need to change their mentality and actually use the weight transfer to pull some tricks, instead of slapping brakes and turning.

One thing I'm not sure of and it seems a bit suspicious, @SamRWD posted how he's able to brake in such short distance - It's not possible on my build unless I enable the ABS.


/E: Also look at @Porkhammer linked video below and remember the setups are for newbies who can't rally. Who don't know what's rally. Adjust them.

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Not sure if this video has been linked already, but here's a small remedy to fix the understeer of the RWD cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfXwdWlF22Y&t=0s

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versedi said:
My feedback after almost 25 hours, 1/3 with Telemetry Tool.

I won't talk about good things, I'm talking related completely to the "Too much grip and broken RWD issue"

TL;DR;
- there's not too much actual GRIP, the grip is a result of:
- - too much force holding the centre mass of the car into the ground --> reason for quick responsiveness and real jumps
- - too much downforce pushing the car into the ground --> reason for not being able to powerslide freely and real jumps
- - no feeling about the rest of the car behind the mass centre

As we all know these first two are things that were broken in DR after applying V2 physics. We don't want that, so I know there won't be rushed update like there was in DR (which pretty much made more things worse than better).

I believe this is the result of few things.
First, is making the momentum effect when going down the hill (which's really good IMHO). If you watch the G-Ball while making an intensive braking down the hill you'll see something.

This, unfortunately, causes a bit weird effect while braking uphill or uphill and over the crest (which usually ends up with spin) - this brings me back to the centre of mass. There's a feeling sometimes, like the physics in the rally is less "aware" (I can't find the right word to use) of the tyre contact with the ground and is based on a single rotating circle at the centre of the car - this happens mostly on gravel with an AWD car (Delta Integrale), you can just quickly countersteer and you're back to a straight line, this causes a lot of over-countersteers and unnatural grip feeling. This is not the case in RX, you can feel the tyres digging/kicking in for grip there.

If you want to test the grip, get @Cortextual Telemetry Tool and drive Peugeot 306 in Australia. Check how much the wheels are spinning if you apply 100% throttle on any gear up to 3rd and how natural the understeer is feeling then.

Now to next thing. Since the centre, Z-axis push/pulling forces seems overpowered the longevity of car doesn't really matter for the sliding - which's not true. Longer cars are easier to oversteer because of the pendulum effect. Subaru GR. A feels like there's nothing behind the centre of mass, nothing's pulling rear end the car once it starts sliding - like it doesn't have any weight and doesn't produce any momentum. That's also why IMO shorter cars are feeling a lot better in D4 (take the Space Star for a ride).

Since the car is actually feeling like a car and not a paper plane in a matter of weight, people need to change their mentality and actually use the weight transfer to pull some tricks, instead of slapping brakes and turning.

One thing I'm not sure of and it seems a bit suspicious, @SamRWD posted how he's able to brake in such short distance - It's not possible on my build unless I enable the ABS.
Great feedback! Did you try this out in the dirtfish area as well?

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versedi said:
One thing I'm not sure of and it seems a bit suspicious, @SamRWD posted how he's able to brake in such short distance - It's not possible on my build unless I enable the ABS.
something that's really been bugging me throughout reading this thread is how little mention there tends to be of one's game mode (lets assume for now every poster here is in Simulator mode) and assists settings, keeping in mind even on the most difficult assists preset that ABS is kept at setting 1 unless customized (not counting fearless, I haven't unlocked that yet)

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I didn't spent much time in the DirtFish area and my focus was on rally so I'd say no. I'll hop in there today and spend some time with TT.

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In D4 tarmac handling is much improved but I think is still not perfect. In low speed corners its looking good, car turning propetly, but in high speed corners car sliding a lot from side to side. Look on the replays - sometimes car moving on the tarmac unnaturally. Sometimes rear wheels slipping a lot when car turn in. Its better but overall "hovercraft" effect from Dirt Rally is still in Dirt 4.

In Dirt Rally cars on tarmac moving like that : 



I think in v1 physics in Dirt Rally car moving much more natural. Ok, grip was to high and braking distance was to small but as I said, car moved more naturally and turn in very realistic. Its my first drive and first movie from Dirt Rally. It was Early Access v1 handling :



Or here in Germany. Too v1 Dirt Rally handling :



But next comes Flying Finland update with v2 handling and destroys nice simulation handling on tarmac :(

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SamRWD said:
OK, what can we do to provide constructive feedback? We have no insight into how physics in D4 work, we don't know...
... result from such evaluation the closest to perfection you are to begin with. Please watch this onboard:
https://youtu.be/1sAbQ5wRr0o
Here, you have done enough to notice how off the physics are ATM. Now how comes no one from Codemasters noticed the problem? I just don't understand, the only explanation is that they are not really trying to make a proper sim, and use a Simulation option to lure sim fans. Seriously I don't get it, I wish I was wrong, but it makes no sence...
My first thought, as I watched the real reference:

"Wow, ok, so much grip in real life? Looks very similar to D4 in Wales for me right now. If u drive that fast..."

Outch, don't beat me, pls...
but... I don't see much difference... and I don't see the car sliding that much like in Dirt Rally.

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Biggest annoyance and mystery to me is the grip when you lean on banks and ditches. Front end touches the wall on the inside in a hairpin in wales? it accelerates rotation of the car. in the moorland go bit wide into the grass and the grip levels go wild and you do a slide even at low speed that dont seem to feel at all that well through the wheel and best is to just slow the car down to a crawl to regain some control. these behaviours feel totally off and unnatural to me whereas rest of the behaviour seems alright and issues are mostly setup based.

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That video Porkhammer posted looks really interesting, can't wait to try it myself. 

BTW just before I left for work I verified, and the video I posted showing braking distances was recorded while using sim mode all assists off (everything off, no ABS). 

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I must admit, this has been an interesting read, but many of you guys are way, way off, either because you've never driven a rally car, or any car, on gravel, or because you learned incorrect driving techniques from DR and RBR. 

Ive been driving buggies and go karts on dirt since I was eight, I did rally school four times and I drive my roadcars on gravel whenever the opportunity presents itself. When playing DR the first thing I do is stiffen the front roll bar to the max and soften the rear roll to the max to kill the excessive oversteer. The cars in DR just oversteer way too easily, as if they have no weight. You don't even have to transfer the weight to the front to get the rear to kick out.

Now with D4 you actually have to work hard to get the car to oversteer just like in real life and I think that's what caught many people out. Plus it doesn't help that the cars in D4 are set up to understeer and generally be very benign. But overall I can't even begin to tell you how much closer to real life the cars are in D4 than than they are in DR, especially the modern FWD ones. 

Now that's not to say that the cars in D4 are perfect, because they are not, but the deficiencies in the physics model really are in most cases very, very minor. In fact, to be honest the only thing that I would like to see is the ability to feel the throttle and wheel spin and to be able to use it more to drift the cars through the corners.
Otherwise I wouldn't change much. Even the comments about the car losing momentum and getting bogged down don't really resonate with me based on my experiences in real life as this really does happen in real life. Whether by the same amount or slightly less I find it difficult to quantify, but I don't find it to be massively inaccurate in most cases, although I haven't driven all of the cars yet. 

Now the other issue is force feedback, which I think contributes in some measure to the perception that there is something not quite right with the physics in D4. Whereas DR seemed to give a lot of info with regard to what the car is doing and seems to be overlaid with more "seat of pants forces" , in D4 it seems as though they decided to go with what seems to be more of a purer steering colum forces type force feedback. For that reason a lot of what the car is doing is not communicated through the wheel. You can see this if you watch a replay in D4. You can really see the suspension working, the car being affected by the topography, the wheels slipping, the front and rear ends sliding, and in general the car seems to behave so realistically that it looks like a to replay of real life. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through through the force feedback, which I think is a bit of a shame.

But I think at the end of the day it isn't going to be very fruitful for a bunch of people to intuit how the cars behave having never driven them in real life and to try to guess at what they migh or might not have done code wise. Even I find it very difficult to quantify through feel how much the cars should slide given a particular diff or roll bar setting or given a particular angle and throttle input. Even people like Chris Meeke will struggle in this regard. I mean certainly he can provide feedback about the general car behaviour and handling but to actually precisely quantify the plethora of things that happen to a rally car on the limit is very, very difficult. 

So if changes do get made to D4, they will be very minor, and will come from someone who has actual rally driving experience. But if you're hoping for a DR type of experience in D4, that will never happen; that would be going backwards. 



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The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

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Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?

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Headlong said:
I must admit, this has been an interesting read, but many of you guys are way, way off, either because you've never driven a rally car, or any car, on gravel, or because you learned incorrect driving techniques from DR and RBR. 

Ive been driving buggies and go karts on dirt since I was eight, I did rally school four times and I drive my roadcars on gravel whenever the opportunity presents itself. When playing DR the first thing I do is stiffen the front roll bar to the max and soften the rear roll to the max to kill the excessive oversteer. The cars in DR just oversteer way too easily, as if they have no weight. You don't even have to transfer the weight to the front to get the rear to kick out.

Now with D4 you actually have to work hard to get the car to oversteer just like in real life and I think that's what caught many people out. Plus it doesn't help that the cars in D4 are set up to understeer and generally be very benign. But overall I can't even begin to tell you how much closer to real life the cars are in D4 than than they are in DR, especially the modern FWD ones. 

Now that's not to say that the cars in D4 are perfect, because they are not, but the deficiencies in the physics model really are in most cases very, very minor. In fact, to be honest the only thing that I would like to see is the ability to feel the throttle and wheel spin and to be able to use it more to drift the cars through the corners.
Otherwise I wouldn't change much. Even the comments about the car losing momentum and getting bogged down don't really resonate with me based on my experiences in real life as this really does happen in real life. Whether by the same amount or slightly less I find it difficult to quantify, but I don't find it to be massively inaccurate in most cases, although I haven't driven all of the cars yet. 

Now the other issue is force feedback, which I think contributes in some measure to the perception that there is something not quite right with the physics in D4. Whereas DR seemed to give a lot of info with regard to what the car is doing and seems to be overlaid with more "seat of pants forces" , in D4 it seems as though they decided to go with what seems to be more of a purer steering colum forces type force feedback. For that reason a lot of what the car is doing is not communicated through the wheel. You can see this if you watch a replay in D4. You can really see the suspension working, the car being affected by the topography, the wheels slipping, the front and rear ends sliding, and in general the car seems to behave so realistically that it looks like a to replay of real life. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through through the force feedback, which I think is a bit of a shame.

But I think at the end of the day it isn't going to be very fruitful for a bunch of people to intuit how the cars behave having never driven them in real life and to try to guess at what they migh or might not have done code wise. Even I find it very difficult to quantify through feel how much the cars should slide given a particular diff or roll bar setting or given a particular angle and throttle input. Even people like Chris Meeke will struggle in this regard. I mean certainly he can provide feedback about the general car behaviour and handling but to actually precisely quantify the plethora of things that happen to a rally car on the limit is very, very difficult. 

So if changes do get made to D4, they will be very minor, and will come from someone who has actual rally driving experience. But if you're hoping for a DR type of experience in D4, that will never happen; that would be going backwards. 



^This is true ... handling is better... you really need to throw the car into the corners, you need to transfer weight and not wait the game to do it for you like in DR.

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versedi said:
Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?
I find the R5s to be excellent as well. I have no idea what people are moaning about. 

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DESMOPT said:
Headlong said:
I must admit, this has been an interesting read, but many of you guys are way, way off, either because you've never driven a rally car, or any car, on gravel, or because you learned incorrect driving techniques from DR and RBR. 

Ive been driving buggies and go karts on dirt since I was eight, I did rally school four times and I drive my roadcars on gravel whenever the opportunity presents itself. When playing DR the first thing I do is stiffen the front roll bar to the max and soften the rear roll to the max to kill the excessive oversteer. The cars in DR just oversteer way too easily, as if they have no weight. You don't even have to transfer the weight to the front to get the rear to kick out.

Now with D4 you actually have to work hard to get the car to oversteer just like in real life and I think that's what caught many people out. Plus it doesn't help that the cars in D4 are set up to understeer and generally be very benign. But overall I can't even begin to tell you how much closer to real life the cars are in D4 than than they are in DR, especially the modern FWD ones. 

Now that's not to say that the cars in D4 are perfect, because they are not, but the deficiencies in the physics model really are in most cases very, very minor. In fact, to be honest the only thing that I would like to see is the ability to feel the throttle and wheel spin and to be able to use it more to drift the cars through the corners.
Otherwise I wouldn't change much. Even the comments about the car losing momentum and getting bogged down don't really resonate with me based on my experiences in real life as this really does happen in real life. Whether by the same amount or slightly less I find it difficult to quantify, but I don't find it to be massively inaccurate in most cases, although I haven't driven all of the cars yet. 

Now the other issue is force feedback, which I think contributes in some measure to the perception that there is something not quite right with the physics in D4. Whereas DR seemed to give a lot of info with regard to what the car is doing and seems to be overlaid with more "seat of pants forces" , in D4 it seems as though they decided to go with what seems to be more of a purer steering colum forces type force feedback. For that reason a lot of what the car is doing is not communicated through the wheel. You can see this if you watch a replay in D4. You can really see the suspension working, the car being affected by the topography, the wheels slipping, the front and rear ends sliding, and in general the car seems to behave so realistically that it looks like a to replay of real life. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through through the force feedback, which I think is a bit of a shame.

But I think at the end of the day it isn't going to be very fruitful for a bunch of people to intuit how the cars behave having never driven them in real life and to try to guess at what they migh or might not have done code wise. Even I find it very difficult to quantify through feel how much the cars should slide given a particular diff or roll bar setting or given a particular angle and throttle input. Even people like Chris Meeke will struggle in this regard. I mean certainly he can provide feedback about the general car behaviour and handling but to actually precisely quantify the plethora of things that happen to a rally car on the limit is very, very difficult. 

So if changes do get made to D4, they will be very minor, and will come from someone who has actual rally driving experience. But if you're hoping for a DR type of experience in D4, that will never happen; that would be going backwards. 



^This is true ... handling is better... you really need to throw the car into the corners, you need to transfer weight and not wait the game to do it for you like in DR.
but main problem is in maintaining slide, not its initiating 

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versedi said:
Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?
Difficult to hold a slide, which should be a piece of cake with a modern car. I think the Focus 2007 reacts a bit better to gravel in that regard.

I tried the Polo RX supercar in Dirtfish and immediately tried the hyundai right after it. I know the tyres and setup is different on both, but in general the handling on Polo RX just felt very right in how it was interacting with the road, and the hyundai doesn't come close to that judgement yet. And also doesn't come close to the FWD car handling.

But the biggest culprit here is driving the Hyundai in Sweden. The way the car handles there makes no sense to me.

Generally, I know the these cars should be easy to drive and have good grip, but also they should be quite easy to slide and be able to control the slides as well. This is just not happening right now. Hopefully Codemasters will work on it.

If you guys are doing setup changes to make the car behave correctly, please let me know. So far I have only played with default setups.

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Sho846 said:
versedi said:
Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?
(...)

If you guys are doing setup changes to make the car behave correctly, please let me know. So far I have only played with default setups.
Here you go.
Change your toe-in as well as camber to more positive.
Softer and higher suspension.

The setups are really doing a night and day difference in D4.

Default ones are targeted towards complete newbies who didn't see a rally car in their whole life.

Here's a good link from @Porkhammer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfXwdWlF22Y

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versedi said:
Sho846 said:
versedi said:
Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?
(...)

If you guys are doing setup changes to make the car behave correctly, please let me know. So far I have only played with default setups.
Here you go.
Change your toe-in as well as camber to more positive.
Softer and higher suspension.

The setups are really doing a night and day difference in D4.

Default ones are targeted towards complete newbies who didn't see a rally car in their whole life.

Here's a good link from @Porkhammer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfXwdWlF22Y

So, to proper slide your car you need to change setups ... how about for people who don´t know how to tweak setups?!

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Sho846 said:
versedi said:
Sho846 said:
The FWD cars drive a lot better and I assume a lot more realistic compared to Dirt Rally, I think. That's great, and I have really enjoyed them so far.

But FWD cars are the smallest collection of cars in D4. RWD and 4WD cars seems quite off. Some 4WD cars seem alright, like the group B and A cars, but the R5s don't. And even the good cars seems to have a lot of room for improvement. There is some real inconsistency here I think.

Honestly loving the FWD cars that I have driven so far: Opel R2, Pug 205ti, Pug kit car. Really awesome, and I think they should be kept untouched.

For me R5 is superb.

I've tried only the i20 and Space Star so far but both are blasting fun and they're also pretty tail-happy if setup correctly.

What's in your opinion is the main problem/cause with R5s?
Difficult to hold a slide, which should be a piece of cake with a modern car. I think the Focus 2007 reacts a bit better to gravel in that regard.

Generally, I know the these cars should be easy to drive and have good grip, but also they should be quite easy to slide and be able to control the slides as well. This is just not happening right now. Hopefully Codemasters will work on it.

These cars are no more difficult to slide in D4 than they are in real life when set up properly and not on the understeery default setup. I know it looks easy to slide the cars and get them to drift when watching a professional rally driver, but when you actually try to do it yourself in real life you'll find that it isn't as easy as you had previously thought. Trust me. 

Having said that I do think that driving the cars on the throttle in D4 is perhaps less intuitive than in real life but again don't be fooled into thinking that you can get into a rally car in real life and drift like Colin McRae and control your slides etc. 

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Headlong said:
I must admit, this has been an interesting read, but many of you guys are way, way off, either because you've never driven a rally car, or any car, on gravel, or because you learned incorrect driving techniques from DR and RBR. 

Ive been driving buggies and go karts on dirt since I was eight, I did rally school four times and I drive my roadcars on gravel whenever the opportunity presents itself. When playing DR the first thing I do is stiffen the front roll bar to the max and soften the rear roll to the max to kill the excessive oversteer. The cars in DR just oversteer way too easily, as if they have no weight. You don't even have to transfer the weight to the front to get the rear to kick out.

Now with D4 you actually have to work hard to get the car to oversteer just like in real life and I think that's what caught many people out. Plus it doesn't help that the cars in D4 are set up to understeer and generally be very benign. But overall I can't even begin to tell you how much closer to real life the cars are in D4 than than they are in DR, especially the modern FWD ones. 

Now that's not to say that the cars in D4 are perfect, because they are not, but the deficiencies in the physics model really are in most cases very, very minor. In fact, to be honest the only thing that I would like to see is the ability to feel the throttle and wheel spin and to be able to use it more to drift the cars through the corners.
Otherwise I wouldn't change much. Even the comments about the car losing momentum and getting bogged down don't really resonate with me based on my experiences in real life as this really does happen in real life. Whether by the same amount or slightly less I find it difficult to quantify, but I don't find it to be massively inaccurate in most cases, although I haven't driven all of the cars yet. 

Now the other issue is force feedback, which I think contributes in some measure to the perception that there is something not quite right with the physics in D4. Whereas DR seemed to give a lot of info with regard to what the car is doing and seems to be overlaid with more "seat of pants forces" , in D4 it seems as though they decided to go with what seems to be more of a purer steering colum forces type force feedback. For that reason a lot of what the car is doing is not communicated through the wheel. You can see this if you watch a replay in D4. You can really see the suspension working, the car being affected by the topography, the wheels slipping, the front and rear ends sliding, and in general the car seems to behave so realistically that it looks like a to replay of real life. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through through the force feedback, which I think is a bit of a shame.

But I think at the end of the day it isn't going to be very fruitful for a bunch of people to intuit how the cars behave having never driven them in real life and to try to guess at what they migh or might not have done code wise. Even I find it very difficult to quantify through feel how much the cars should slide given a particular diff or roll bar setting or given a particular angle and throttle input. Even people like Chris Meeke will struggle in this regard. I mean certainly he can provide feedback about the general car behaviour and handling but to actually precisely quantify the plethora of things that happen to a rally car on the limit is very, very difficult. 

So if changes do get made to D4, they will be very minor, and will come from someone who has actual rally driving experience. But if you're hoping for a DR type of experience in D4, that will never happen; that would be going backwards. 



I agree with everything you said, seems that you know this stuff, but I still think that this is right with when car drives slowly and there is something wrong when driving fast. Don't you think that you should be able to throw the weight of the car a little more ? For me it sometimes feels like the car lacks weight or inertia and this is why it can do 180 spin so suddenly, also thing with RWD is that it seems that turning the wheel into the direction of the slide save the car to quickly, it reminds me a little bit of Dirt rally where it feels like you should lose the back of the car and spin but you just turn a little bit more and it magically saves you. 

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Headlong said:

Now the other issue is force feedback, which I think contributes in some measure to the perception that there is something not quite right with the physics in D4. Whereas DR seemed to give a lot of info with regard to what the car is doing and seems to be overlaid with more "seat of pants forces" , in D4 it seems as though they decided to go with what seems to be more of a purer steering colum forces type force feedback. For that reason a lot of what the car is doing is not communicated through the wheel. You can see this if you watch a replay in D4. You can really see the suspension working, the car being affected by the topography, the wheels slipping, the front and rear ends sliding, and in general the car seems to behave so realistically that it looks like a to replay of real life. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through through the force feedback, which I think is a bit of a shame.

I thinkthis is the part I'm missing the most

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Physics is bad.
You can finish a stage by only leave gas pedal before the corner only. No need to use brakes at all. Car grips is too much. Can't get enough feedback from the ground by the wheels

No DNF after hitting a tree by front of the car

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mesa said:
Physics is bad.
You can finish a stage by only leave gas pedal before the corner only. No need to use brakes at all. Car grips is too much. Can't get enough feedback from the ground by the wheels

No DNF after hitting a tree by front of the car
Constructive critiscm is bad.
You can talk bad things and still not pass any useful information. No need to pass information. Passing information is overrated. Enough feedback could make it easier for devs.

DNF after hitting a tree at 100kmh, depends on the car durability,  hit power and tree.


/E: From you @mesa I was expecting actual feedback rather than...talk.

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