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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Headlong said:
but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) 
None of this has been explained at all, yet alone well explained. 
Though I still prefer DiRT Rally over DiRT 4 at the moment 
This I cannot fathom. I think that's we haven't had too many productive exchanges. 

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 

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Headlong said:
Headlong said:
but imo I do think some of the physics are 'off' (and have been well explained / broken-down in this thread (and others)) 
None of this has been explained at all, yet alone well explained. 
Though I still prefer DiRT Rally over DiRT 4 at the moment 
This I cannot fathom. I think that's we haven't had too many productive exchanges. 
It's just my genuine opinion/perspective at the present moment....time will tell....I sincerely hope (and am fairly confident) that CM has had a bucket load of feedback on this (even though you think we've barely scratched the surface) and they'll steer the DiRT 4 ship where it needs to go :)

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Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.
I'm honesty stumped that you don't think that the cars in D4 behave realistically compared to real life. For me it's the exact opposite. 

As as for the braking on gamepad I don't know if they can indeed brake better than real world drivers. I would like to see some substantial data to back this point up. 

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.
I'm honesty stumped that you don't think that the cars in D4 behave realistically compared to real life. For me it's the exact opposite. 

As as for the braking on gamepad I don't know if they can indeed brake better than real world drivers. I would like to see some substantial data to back this point up. 
If you'd follow rallying for as many years as people here did, you'd see plenty of onboards including those showing telemetry. If you were not into rallying, but into any other kind of motorsport, you'd also know enough to spot such extreme innacuraces. I personally don't feel obliged to feed people who have little idea about real world rallying with basic knowledge. 

BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.
I'm honesty stumped that you don't think that the cars in D4 behave realistically compared to real life. For me it's the exact opposite. 

As as for the braking on gamepad I don't know if they can indeed brake better than real world drivers. I would like to see some substantial data to back this point up. 
If you'd follow rallying for as many years as people here did, you'd see plenty of onboards including those showing telemetry. If you were not into rallying, but into any other kind of motorsport, you'd also know enough to spot such extreme innacuraces. I personally don't feel obliged to feed people who have little idea about real world rallying with basic knowledge. 

BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

I have bee been watching rallying since I was ten and driven rally cars in real life. From the outside in particular the rally cars in D4 seem to behave extremely realitically. More so than in DR and RBR. 

Plus us I have never claimed to have actually validated anything. You're the one shouting louder than anyone else here about how everything is wrong and how the parameters are all messed up. As such you have the burden of proof. That's how it works.

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Why any sim with more or less realistic physics has different behavior for rally cars.
Do you own AC? Grab Audio Quattro S1, even on tarmac it's mostly driven by throttle oversteer. 
In D4 cars feels like are driven by a hand of God, sim mode, all assists off including ABS.

And I am pretty sure anyone here drove a car at least once on gravel, mud or snow.

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AndrewWOT said:
Why any sim with more or less realistic physics has different behavior for rally cars.
Do you own AC? Grab Audio Quattro S1, even on tarmac it's mostly driven by throttle oversteer. 
In D4 cars feels like are driven by a hand of God, sim mode, all assists off including ABS.

I could not disagree more. Are you on pad or wheel? 

Ps I have AC, Rfactor2, DR, RBR with a few physics mods, Pcars and Sebastien loeb rally evo. 

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Not sure what the fuss is about AC myself, just a glorified physics engine wrapped in garbage, lol. Its insanely boring and some of the cars are just flat out wrong.the F40 for example is a car with no assists, yet when you drive it in AC with no assists, even the slightest tickle of the throttle at low speeds sends it into a torvil and dean spin, silly

pcars is much better when setup correctly, took me about 3 months to get it right though, and then they patched it and i had to start again  :D

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Ok, I've been driving the Lancia 037, probably my favourite car at the moment, at Australia and Wales. It seems that the only way that im able to reproduce such short braking distances is if I max out the brake pressure setting. The problem is that when I do, it becomes really difficult to drive properly bacause it's too easy to lock up and miss apexes, especially when trial braking for hairpins. It's also easier to lose the rear end, especially down hills and over bumps. 

The he braking distances definitely do seem to be slightly longer when wet, but not by much, and it is much easier to lose the rear in the wet. 

Overall the the braking seems to be very well done in terms of how the weight transfer, bumps, cambers, compressions and crests affect the behaviour of the car under braking. The instability and squirmy behaviour is very well done and is easy to take advantage of when doing pendulum turns. 

Other things I've noticed: the rear end is very unstable and slides around a lot, especially evident in replays, it is also very easy to power slide through long hairpins and even long 3s, especially when the LSD is locked at 63 percent. And doing donuts is also very easy. All you have to do is turn the wheel and floor it and the rear comes around in a heartbeat. All in all I just do not percieve there to be too much grip. What I do percieve is the tyres actually gripping the surface and not just floating over the top of it. 


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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.
I'm honesty stumped that you don't think that the cars in D4 behave realistically compared to real life. For me it's the exact opposite. 

As as for the braking on gamepad I don't know if they can indeed brake better than real world drivers. I would like to see some substantial data to back this point up. 
If you'd follow rallying for as many years as people here did, you'd see plenty of onboards including those showing telemetry. If you were not into rallying, but into any other kind of motorsport, you'd also know enough to spot such extreme innacuraces. I personally don't feel obliged to feed people who have little idea about real world rallying with basic knowledge. 

BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

I have bee been watching rallying since I was ten and driven rally cars in real life. From the outside in particular the rally cars in D4 seem to behave extremely realitically. More so than in DR and RBR. 

Plus us I have never claimed to have actually validated anything. You're the one shouting louder than anyone else here about how everything is wrong and how the parameters are all messed up. As such you have the burden of proof. That's how it works.
How comes you are not aware how powersliding works especially in RWD cars? You stopped posting your non reality based views on how that works only when one of users here posted a footage of himself having no problem initiating powerslide with a throttle when car rotated.

How comes you think cars can brake as quickly as in D4? Among the cars we have in D4 which one resembles the most the one you did rl ralling with? Did you try doing any tests?

"Plus us I have never claimed to have actually validated anything. You're the one shouting louder than anyone else here about how everything is wrong and how the parameters are all messed up. As such you have the burden of proof. That's how it works."

You're the one shouting in this thread the most. By far.
If you've not validated anything what are you basing your opinions on? You're pretty active in this thread. If you are not validating your opinions, just answer yourself how much they are worth in this thread.

Burden of proof? We've posted enough to back our ideas with. You did none of that. Still waiting of any ingame footage of you driving in D4. Let's say Mitsubishi Evo VI on Wales. Show us how that car resembles real life, because apparently nobody can drive it properly. Except braking. Everyone in the world is better than real life drivers. Real world drivers are so dumb, they didn't figure out yet that all it takes to brake is to press a brake and you go from 100 to 0 in 2 seconds. Gravel, snow, or tarmac.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:

SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
So I guess from now on we can agree that at least braking distances are broken. I personally think lateral grip is also too high (explained why on previous pages).
Re: lateral grip (and only in 'rally / sim mode'), do you think it varies from car-to-car, country-to-country though?  And are you solely a gamepad user?

 Don't you guys mean longitudinal grip. Longitudinal grip affects the braking distances not lateral. 

If there is too much longitudinal grip then why is it so easy to lock the front wheels? If tyres are easy to lock and yet distances are quite short then that would point more towards the soft surface simulation and how the tyres interact with those surfaces. 
We were talking about lateral grip. If game produces too high lateral friction due to deep surface simulation (as I said already it is my guess it does) that means lateral grip is too high on loose surfaces (as I already said it does).
The key word here is "if". 
If it doesn't then it does something else wrong. Since devs are silent we can only first validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not
How do we go about doing this? How did you do it?
By comparing. I actually made a list before how D4 is not consistent with real life footage (ingame car performance and behaviour vs real life onboards) and with D4 itself (other ingame modes and Dirt Fish). It is also not consistent with other simulators. You can argue that we cannot compare ourselves to real drivers, but first of all some of us here have some experience, and second of all if I can do better using a gamepad than real world drivers do during certain stages of driving that's another clue. I wish D4 was realistic, and I tried to convince myself it is. I tried driving by forcing the game to act realistic- I braked earlier than it is needed in game, I used extreme setups and I tried throwing a car around to force it to powerslide. That's not what realism is about. 

I already knew braking distances are off back in DR days, and I was happy D4 was improved, however as we all were hit right between our eyes with telemetry tests we can see it is still far from perfect. Even you finally agreed it is off.

EDIT:
BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?
I have said on several occasions that the behaviour in D4 resembles the behaviour of real life cars more than any other sim to date, and you actually have to drive the cars properly, unlike in D4.

And yes, I would argue that you can't compare yourself to real drivers.

Plus I would like to ask, if I may, what on earth are you sound wasting your time playing D4 with pad? I honestly you haven't touched any of my driving games with a pad, and I don't intend to. 
Why you cannot comprehend the simplest of sentences? Me. No. Use. Gamepad.
When it comes to car behaviour (physics) D4 resembles real life RX. It doesn't resemble real life rallying in areas multiple people were mentioning in this thread multiple times using multiple examples including their own performance. I even posted a real life footage showing R5 cars having no problem powersliding on loose gravel with deep ruts you will not find in your typical Wales rally.

How comes everyone can brake better than real world drivers using a gamepad in D4? IMHO it is just a matter of time before gamepad users will hold top spots on rallying multiplayer leaderboards just as they did in DR.
I'm honesty stumped that you don't think that the cars in D4 behave realistically compared to real life. For me it's the exact opposite. 

As as for the braking on gamepad I don't know if they can indeed brake better than real world drivers. I would like to see some substantial data to back this point up. 
If you'd follow rallying for as many years as people here did, you'd see plenty of onboards including those showing telemetry. If you were not into rallying, but into any other kind of motorsport, you'd also know enough to spot such extreme innacuraces. I personally don't feel obliged to feed people who have little idea about real world rallying with basic knowledge. 

BTW how did you do it? How did you  validate if particular behaviour is realistic or not?

I have bee been watching rallying since I was ten and driven rally cars in real life. From the outside in particular the rally cars in D4 seem to behave extremely realitically. More so than in DR and RBR. 

Plus us I have never claimed to have actually validated anything. You're the one shouting louder than anyone else here about how everything is wrong and how the parameters are all messed up. As such you have the burden of proof. That's how it works.
How comes you are not aware how powersliding works especially in RWD cars? You stopped posting your non reality based views on how that works only when one of users here posted a footage of himself having no problem initiating powerslide with a throttle when car rotated.

How comes you think cars can brake as quickly as in D4? Among the cars we have in D4 which one resembles the most the one you did rl ralling with? Did you try doing any tests?

"Plus us I have never claimed to have actually validated anything. You're the one shouting louder than anyone else here about how everything is wrong and how the parameters are all messed up. As such you have the burden of proof. That's how it works."

You're the one shouting in this thread the most. By far.
If you've not validated anything what are you basing your opinions on? You're pretty active in this thread. If you are not validating your opinions, just answer yourself how much they are worth in this thread.

Burden of proof? We've posted enough to back our ideas with. You did none of that. Still waiting of any ingame footage of you driving in D4. Let's say Mitsubishi Evo VI on Wales. Show us how that car resembles real life, because apparently nobody can drive it properly. Except braking. Everyone in the world is better than real life drivers. Real world drivers are so dumb, they didn't figure out yet that all it takes to brake is to press a brake and you go from 100 to 0 in 2 seconds. Gravel, snow, or tarmac.

Look it's very easy. You make the claim that the physics are all wrong and that the parameters are all messed up so YOU have the burden of proof. So far you've provided none, all you've provided is unsubstantiated opinions, conjectures and feelings. None of that could ever be considered proof whether from a scientific or from a legal perspective. 

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battfinkz said:
Not sure what the fuss is about AC myself, just a glorified physics engine wrapped in garbage, lol. Its insanely boring and some of the cars are just flat out wrong.the F40 for example is a car with no assists, yet when you drive it in AC with no assists, even the slightest tickle of the throttle at low speeds sends it into a torvil and dean spin, silly

pcars is much better when setup correctly, took me about 3 months to get it right though, and then they patched it and i had to start again  :D
Every sim has its weak points and it's good points and every sim has cars that are simulated well and others that are simulated not so well. And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 

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This is what rallying should be like in a Ford escort. Dirt 4 doesn't let you do this at all. Dirt Rally does. Please fix it Codemasters, you know what to do. (Video is WRC driver Jari-Matti Latvala driving an escort in a historic rally)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBOKD6fGu0

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lucag120 said:
This is what rallying should be like in a Ford escort. Dirt 4 doesn't let you do this at all. Dirt Rally does. Please fix it Codemasters, you know what to do. (Video is WRC driver Jari-Matti Latvala driving an escort in a historic rally)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBOKD6fGu0
Is this the same spec escort as the one in D4 or a souped up one?

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Headlong, what is your intention in this thread. Are you Codies dev in disguise. Everyone is saying it's not right, yet you alone singing beautiful swan song how perfectly well it is. What is your affiliation with the title or the company?
I would love to hear your tune when (if) Codies patch the physics.
To the guy commented on AC garbage physics and praising pCars1, I just feel sorry for you, really.

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Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:

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About the brakes and braking in D4, in this video some guy claims that the default braking force in Dirt 4 was raised a lot compared to Dirt Rally (which could explain the rear stepping out under braking). He is showing his example with the Ford Focus, 3080 in D4 vs 2310 in DR.
I don't have DR on my disk anymore. Can someone verify that?

Look at 3:05

https://youtu.be/d9f7Ney_PuM?t=187

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Do you even get numbers in DR? I'll just check it for you.
[edit] Yeah you do get numbers. I also did the stage after this with default setup, so much fun! Hadn't played this game in a long time.

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AndrewWOT said:
Headlong, what is your intention in this thread. Are you Codies dev in disguise. Everyone is saying it's not right, yet you alone singing beautiful swan song how perfectly well it is. What is your affiliation with the title or the company?
Everyone is not saying that it's not right, everyone is playing the game and having a ball. It's just a few crybabies here and there who are dissapointed that they can't go round hairpins with their foot flat to the floor and the steering wheel pointing straight ahead the way they could in DR. There's always a few of those whenever a new game comes out. 

As to why I'm here. It's because I genuinely believe that on the whole the grip levels are about right. I also fear that the likely result of reducing grip levels will be a return to the feather-light origami cars and that wonderful feeling of connectedness, feel for the limits of grip, and the tyres biting into the surface will be gone. And what a shame that would be. 

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Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 

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Didzis said:
Ha3aP said:
2 second in tarmac?
https://www.facebook.com/AxisOfOversteer/videos/10154528273670493/
No 2 second ))))
No 4WD. :D
What has that got to do with braking?
And @Ha3aP I'm pretty sure he was doing more than 100km/h and also the road there goes downhill
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that 4WD stops better than 2WD. But I am certainly no expert on the matter, it just seems logical in my mind, haha...

The wheel went off, bolts broken in braking zone 

https://www.facebook.com/Tom.Coronel/videos/1606629916027629/

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Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.

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