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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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AndrewWOT said:
Headlong, what is your intention in this thread. Are you Codies dev in disguise. Everyone is saying it's not right, yet you alone singing beautiful swan song how perfectly well it is. What is your affiliation with the title or the company?
I would love to hear your tune when (if) Codies patch the physics.
To the guy commented on AC garbage physics and praising pCars1, I just feel sorry for you, really.
No, he is not Codie. I don't expect devs to know everything, but this guy is so delusional that if he was working on D4 we would get another Sega Rally.

Why he is? it's 50/50- he is eiher a troll, or just a brainless D4 fanboy (this board was full of such people after DR got released, it was impossible to reason with them back then too).

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Headlong said:
Look it's very easy. You make the claim that the physics are all wrong and that the parameters are all messed up so YOU have the burden of proof. So far you've provided none, all you've provided is unsubstantiated opinions, conjectures and feelings. None of that could ever be considered proof whether from a scientific or from a legal perspective. 
Isn't this exactly what you are doing in this thread from the beginning ?
All you are doing is claiming that you did rallyschool 3 times and that other people have no idea how a rallycar should drive.
At least we have @hawku0 amazing videos with complete telemetry that clearly shows that something is wrong somewhere.

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Headlong said:
AndrewWOT said:
Headlong, what is your intention in this thread. Are you Codies dev in disguise. Everyone is saying it's not right, yet you alone singing beautiful swan song how perfectly well it is. What is your affiliation with the title or the company?
Everyone is not saying that it's not right, everyone is playing the game and having a ball. It's just a few crybabies here and there who are dissapointed that they can't go round hairpins with their foot flat to the floor and the steering wheel pointing straight ahead the way they could in DR. There's always a few of those whenever a new game comes out. 

As to why I'm here. It's because I genuinely believe that on the whole the grip levels are about right. I also fear that the likely result of reducing grip levels will be a return to the feather-light origami cars and that wonderful feeling of connectedness, feel for the limits of grip, and the tyres biting into the surface will be gone. And what a shame that would be. 
If you think a Mk2 Escort would push the nose exiting a hairpin on gravel, your credibility is zero.  Simples...

You said yourself that braking is better with 4wd due to engine braking, yet engine braking on a RWD doesn't step the rear out?

You say us gamers aren't skilled enough to drive the D4 cars in the way we see Rally drivers do it, but the general complaint with D4 is that we all find it too easy?

I think you should go away, play your game & not come back on the forum here.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.
I can't prove it, which is why I never went over to the Assetto Corsa forum and opened a thread demanding that they change the behaviour of that car as soon as possible. And I never will.

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.
I can't prove it, which is why I never went over to the Assetto Corsa forum and opened a thread demanding that they change the behaviour of that car as soon as possible. And I never will.
But we posted a proof of Escort behaving oddly. Most cars in a game share that odd behaviour. Can you post a proof of us being wrong? It would just take a one onboard of you driving to prove all us wrong. Or a real life onboard. Anything.  You spent so much time making fool out of yourself in this thread, surely you could spare a time to just shut us all down.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.
I can't prove it, which is why I never went over to the Assetto Corsa forum and opened a thread demanding that they change the behaviour of that car as soon as possible. And I never will.
But we posted a proof of Escort behaving oddly. Most cars in a game share that odd behaviour. Can you post a proof of us being wrong? It would just take a one onboard of you driving to prove all us wrong. Or a real life onboard. Anything.  You spent so much time making fool out of yourself in this thread, surely you could spare a time to just shut us all down.
I've already said, more than once, that the escort needs to be made a bit more nimble and it needs to be able to spin up its rear tyres a bit more. Do you even read my posts, or do you just automatically write what you think will be the most disagreeable thing in any post with "Headlong" at the top of it? 

And yes, I realise that I could be wrong about the escort and I don't have proof blah blah blah blah blah...

And no, most of the cars certainly do not share most of the weird behaviour of the escort. The modern cars are nothing like the escort and neither is the stratos, or the group b Peugeot, cosworth or lancia 037. Even the Caddett and Abarth don't share the weird behaviour of the escort. 

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Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.
I can't prove it, which is why I never went over to the Assetto Corsa forum and opened a thread demanding that they change the behaviour of that car as soon as possible. And I never will.
But we posted a proof of Escort behaving oddly. Most cars in a game share that odd behaviour. Can you post a proof of us being wrong? It would just take a one onboard of you driving to prove all us wrong. Or a real life onboard. Anything.  You spent so much time making fool out of yourself in this thread, surely you could spare a time to just shut us all down.
blah blah blah blah blah...
That's what your posts look like. Glad you noticed.

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SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
SamRWD said:
Headlong said:
Headlong said:
And yes, there is even the odd car that is just so overwhelmingly wrong as to be almost unbelievable. The F40 in AC is just one example. There are a few others too, but I won't go into that now. 
And your scientific proof about the F40 being wrong in AC is... 
Poor brainless troll. :smiley:
I never claimed to have scientific proof. But I've driven plenty of different cars in my life and this does not drive like a car. 
Burden of proof is on you. That's how it works.
I can't prove it, which is why I never went over to the Assetto Corsa forum and opened a thread demanding that they change the behaviour of that car as soon as possible. And I never will.
But we posted a proof of Escort behaving oddly. Most cars in a game share that odd behaviour. Can you post a proof of us being wrong? It would just take a one onboard of you driving to prove all us wrong. Or a real life onboard. Anything.  You spent so much time making fool out of yourself in this thread, surely you could spare a time to just shut us all down.
blah blah blah blah blah...
That's what your posts look like. Glad you noticed.
Ok, you win. 

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AndrewWOT "To the guy commented on AC garbage physics and praising pCars1, I just feel sorry for you, really."

Never said AC's physics were garbage, you may want to re read the post. Also, If you havent actually managed to set pcars up (it provides everything needed to get the game feeling better than AC) correctly then the feelings mutual. You're missing out.

Try oscarolims in depth guide to setting up your wheel first, then each car, even has setups for each individual patch, 
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/cars/23/6/2.9

On top of this, pcars ruins ac in all other aspects, sound, options, weather, cars and tracks choice, career, the works. Far better game

Anyway, back on topic. SamRWD, you dont like the R5 fiesta mate? Feels pretty good to me, was smashing a few wales tracks with it last night and it felt a little more loose in the corners, just how i like it lol

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thats the way you should drive the FORD ECORT MK 2
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AP7rPJq96c
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP16RbQnOaE thats how rally stages should be
3)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQnCn_fl1qs
4)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs2baI3hSw part 1
5)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxZ_hCnK9sY
6)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX3xXzwPpZI

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Need I say more??  Mr Meeke driving the balls off a Mk2 - understeer?? Nope....

https://youtu.be/9DQwp22J2mA

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Wait, so I couldn't be bothered going through all the posts in the last few pages, but... is there somebody actually defending the Mk2's behaviour in Dirt 4?

Delusional.

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Wait, so I couldn't be bothered going through all the posts in the last few pages, but... is there somebody actually defending the Mk2's behaviour in Dirt 4?

Delusional.
Yup, guess who it is XD

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Hi guys,
I'm a little hesitant to join in, because I know absolutely nothing about physics and cars and stuff and the discussion appears to be quite heated, so I'm sorry if my point is completely meaningless to the discussion/simply based on me not understanding these things.

Anyway, I was playing quite a bit Rallycross this week and rather liked the way the cars handled – especially in comparison to some Rally-cars I had used in game, like the Impreza 2001, and their sort-of- “understeer”* on throttle.
 I figured it would be fun to try the two versions of the Ford RS200 in the Dirt-Academy-place and if they/how they handled differently.
*(my attempt at further "describing" the behaviour in the spoiler-thing)
My take on finding a word for the car-behaviour I've seen described in this thread a few times, where it feels like the front of the car pushes to the outside of the corner when you get on the throttle, while the rear stays planted, even if you've already initiated a slide via braking (can't describe it any better myself because of insufficient English-skills, sorry).
(I'm playing in Sim-mode on a wheel, no assists)
I felt that while the RX-car was rather tail-happy, even when accelerating out of corners, the Rally-version somehow “understeered” quite heavily when I was putting down the power on the way out of a corner.
And while I have no idea what's more realistic, I personally liked the way the RX-car handled much better.
So I started “experimenting”: Maybe I'd be able to make the Rally-car feel like the RX-car.

First, I tried to set up the Rally-RS200 as similar to the RX-version as possible in terms of camber, brakes, differential etc...but I was never really able to get rid of it's “understeer”-thingy completely. Even when additionally setting the torque bias all the way to the rear (even though it's already at 38% on both versions by default), the back of the rally-version wouldn't step out on throttle like it did on the RX-version, even when the RX-car was only on it's default 38% torque bias.

Then, I tried to make the RX-version “understeer” like the Rally-car and was able to do so by simply changing the torque bias to the front (50% and more) – the further to the front, the worse the understeer on power.
 
Again, I've got no clue about cars/(car-)physics/etc … I'm simply a little confused by this difference in handling of what I'd (probably ignorantly and wrongly) describe as two almost identical cars (in terms of their displayed stats at least).
Are the two versions of the RS200 so much different from each other that such a (IMO) vast difference in handling-characteristics is likely?
Is there some way to make the Rally-car not understeer and behave more like the RX-version on the throttle?

TLDR:
Is there a way to make the Rally-version of the RS200 act more like it's RX counterpart on the throttle (more oversteery), if I already tried copying over the set-up of the RX car as closely as possible without "success"?

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Hi guys,
I'm a little hesitant to join in, because I know absolutely nothing about physics and cars and stuff and the discussion appears to be quite heated, so I'm sorry if my point is completely meaningless to the discussion/simply based on me not understanding these things.

Anyway, I was playing quite a bit Rallycross this week and rather liked the way the cars handled – especially in comparison to some Rally-cars I had used in game, like the Impreza 2001, and their sort-of- “understeer”* on throttle.
 I figured it would be fun to try the two versions of the Ford RS200 in the Dirt-Academy-place and if they/how they handled differently.
*(my attempt at further "describing" the behaviour in the spoiler-thing)
My take on finding a word for the car-behaviour I've seen described in this thread a few times, where it feels like the front of the car pushes to the outside of the corner when you get on the throttle, while the rear stays planted, even if you've already initiated a slide via braking (can't describe it any better myself because of insufficient English-skills, sorry).
(I'm playing in Sim-mode on a wheel, no assists)
I felt that while the RX-car was rather tail-happy, even when accelerating out of corners, the Rally-version somehow “understeered” quite heavily when I was putting down the power on the way out of a corner.
And while I have no idea what's more realistic, I personally liked the way the RX-car handled much better.
So I started “experimenting”: Maybe I'd be able to make the Rally-car feel like the RX-car.

First, I tried to set up the Rally-RS200 as similar to the RX-version as possible in terms of camber, brakes, differential etc...but I was never really able to get rid of it's “understeer”-thingy completely. Even when additionally setting the torque bias all the way to the rear (even though it's already at 38% on both versions by default), the back of the rally-version wouldn't step out on throttle like it did on the RX-version, even when the RX-car was only on it's default 38% torque bias.

Then, I tried to make the RX-version “understeer” like the Rally-car and was able to do so by simply changing the torque bias to the front (50% and more) – the further to the front, the worse the understeer on power.
 
Again, I've got no clue about cars/(car-)physics/etc … I'm simply a little confused by this difference in handling of what I'd (probably ignorantly and wrongly) describe as two almost identical cars (in terms of their displayed stats at least).
Are the two versions of the RS200 so much different from each other that such a (IMO) vast difference in handling-characteristics is likely?
Is there some way to make the Rally-car not understeer and behave more like the RX-version on the throttle?

TLDR:
Is there a way to make the Rally-version of the RS200 act more like it's RX counterpart on the throttle (more oversteery), if I already tried copying over the set-up of the RX car as closely as possible without "success"?

The think is, Headbong already stated he doesn't notice any difference in car behaviour between RX and rallying. Rest of us are fully aware of the problem.

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Wait, so I couldn't be bothered going through all the posts in the last few pages, but... is there somebody actually defending the Mk2's behaviour in Dirt 4?

Delusional.
The Mk2 doesn't even work at DirtFish.  Still understeers tragically 

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Here are some real life rally videos with a cornering force telemetry.

Subaru with studded tires on ice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSl82Ts6jM

VW Golf III Kitcar:
https://youtu.be/hTyjKX99nBE

Rallycross on gravel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJYNO2LFpUU

BMW M3 E30 rally:
https://youtu.be/7tQ8fbFsOUE

Renault Clio rally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTJWcCjplHk

Wales Rally with Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIgz7TF9UCQ

None of those cars can sustain over 1G's of total cornering force, yet every single car on Dirt 4 can sustain over 1G's on every surface, every condition and every speed.

Cornering at lateral force of 1G's means that there is a force equal of the car's weight pushing it from the the side.

Let's simplify this so that the most stubborn people on this planet ( @Headlong ) can understand this:
  •  Put a car on a platform which can tilt sideways.
  •  Tilt the platform to a 90 degree angle and add device which somehow adds a force which pushes the car to platform with same force as gravity, which is 1G.
  • There is now 1G's of lateral and vertical force affecting the car.
  • Let's add another half of a car weight to side of the car and now we have the cornering forces of Dirt 4.
  • How does the car still hold on the platform?

Another simplification:
  • Put a car to a flat tarmac surface.
  • Reduce a vertical force of the car to 0 G's
  • Now the lateral force and vertical force are the same. It's the same ratio when when cornering at 1G.
  • How much force would you need to push the car to the side when it doesn't weight anything?
  • How much downforce would you need to add to the car to withstand 0.5G's of lateral force? What speed you have to drive to achieve that downforce?

Of course there are situations where tyres can peak over 1G's, but to sustain over 1G, you would need a massive amount of downforce and a very sticky tarmac.
I don't understand how someone can argue that every car should sustain over 1G's on gravel and ice without any serious downforce.


To keep this thread somewhat constructive, here is my constructive feedback:
  • Maybe we should have a tyre friction coefficient slider on the car setup menu, so we could tune the values to little closer to the realistic values.
  • There should be different sliders for different kind of road surface and off-road surface.
  • Paul Coleman said in one video that we should send them good car setups and those friction coefficient sliders would really help us to help Codies to make the game better and more fun for us sim racers.

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hawku0 said:
Here are some real life rally videos with a cornering force telemetry.

Subaru with studded tires on ice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSl82Ts6jM

VW Golf III Kitcar:
https://youtu.be/hTyjKX99nBE

Rallycross on gravel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJYNO2LFpUU

BMW M3 E30 rally:
https://youtu.be/7tQ8fbFsOUE

Renault Clio rally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTJWcCjplHk

Wales Rally with Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIgz7TF9UCQ

None of those cars can sustain over 1G's of total cornering force, yet every single car on Dirt 4 can sustain over 1G's on every surface, every condition and every speed.

Cornering at lateral force of 1G's means that there is a force equal of the car's weight pushing it from the the side.

Let's simplify this so that the most stubborn people on this planet ( @Headlong ) can understand this:
  •  Put a car on a platform which can tilt sideways.
  •  Tilt the platform to a 90 degree angle and add device which somehow adds a force which pushes the car to platform with same force as gravity, which is 1G.
  • There is now 1G's of lateral and vertical force affecting the car.
  • Let's add another half of a car weight to side of the car and now we have the cornering forces of Dirt 4.
  • How does the car still hold on the platform?

Another simplification:
  • Put a car to a flat tarmac surface.
  • Reduce a vertical force of the car to 0 G's
  • Now the lateral force and vertical force are the same. It's the same ratio when when cornering at 1G.
  • How much force would you need to push the car to the side when it doesn't weight anything?
  • How much downforce would you need to add to the car to withstand 0.5G's of lateral force? What speed you have to drive to achieve that downforce?

Of course there are situations where tyres can peak over 1G's, but to sustain over 1G, you would need a massive amount of downforce and a very sticky tarmac.
I don't understand how someone can argue that every car should sustain over 1G's on gravel and ice without any serious downforce.


To keep this thread somewhat constructive, here is my constructive feedback:
  • Maybe we should have a tyre friction coefficient slider on the car setup menu, so we could tune the values to little closer to the realistic values.
  • There should be different sliders for different kind of road surface and off-road surface.
  • Paul Coleman said in one video that we should send them good car setups and those friction coefficient sliders would really help us to help Codies to make the game better and more fun for us sim racers.
The best post in whole thread confirmed. GJ.

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Although it's tricky to get the Escort to slide, it feels good when you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21K0MjRftlQ&feature=youtu.be

(sorry for lack of sound)

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caerphoto said:
Although it's tricky to get the Escort to slide, it feels good when you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21K0MjRftlQ&feature=youtu.be

(sorry for lack of sound)
np with lack of sound.
Front wheels should follow drive line, so if you were to powerslide with front wheels almost straight up you'd spin a car. That's what I call forcing a sim to act properly. Your tyres have too much of a grip, so in order to powerslide you have to drive the way a real car would spin.

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caerphoto said:
Although it's tricky to get the Escort to slide, it feels good when you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21K0MjRftlQ&feature=youtu.be

(sorry for lack of sound)
That is just a Scandi-flick.

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SamRWD said:
caerphoto said:
Although it's tricky to get the Escort to slide, it feels good when you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21K0MjRftlQ&feature=youtu.be

(sorry for lack of sound)
np with lack of sound.
Front wheels should follow drive line, so if you were to powerslide with front wheels almost straight up you'd spin a car. That's what I call forcing a sim to act properly. Your tyres have too much of a grip, so in order to powerslide you have to drive the way a real car would spin.
True. One thing that might be worth noting though is that the right front wheel was off the ground for a lot of that. Plus it's a bit downhill, so maybe that helped too? I dunno, I'm no expert, never driven a RWD car at all, least of all on gravel like this: )

FWIW, here's another clip in the Kadett, different corner but still in Wales:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxshNkt9GzM

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caerphoto said:
Although it's tricky to get the Escort to slide, it feels good when you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21K0MjRftlQ&feature=youtu.be

(sorry for lack of sound)
That is just a Scandi-flick.
Ooof yeah, I knew it didn't sound right. Shall update the video title :)

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That's catching a slide, rather than oversteering.  You could do that exactly the same with a front wheel drive.  It just looks weird the way the front wheels stay dead straight for most of the slide.  An Escort should be the full of the rack!!

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