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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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bogani said:
fab1701 said:
Toe gives the wheels a tendency to turn. In the case of toe-in, the outside wheels want to go to the inside. When turning, the weight goes to the outside and the turnig then seems to be quicker, or more responsive in the process, thats how I understand it. I think negative camber has a similar effect, and can be countered by a bit of toe-out. The downside of this is, that toe also comes with instability, because the neutral direction the car wants to go then depends on the weight distribution. FWDs also come with a bit of toe-out, because under power the front wheels are forced to the front and then straighten out in the process ;).
Toe-in is not the recipe for better turn in response, toe-out is.

The description is the tuning menu is wrong, which they are aware of.
Checked it, you're right!

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  • Front toe-out will introduce a bit of oversteer (looser)
  • Front toe-in will produce the opposite - understeer (tighter)
  • Steering response will be improved with front toe-out
  • Straight-line stability will be improved with front toe-in
I would add that rear toe-in will induce some oversteer, doesn't  it?
Codemasters explanation in the setup screen is still wrong for front toe-in/toe-out.

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  • Front toe-out will introduce a bit of oversteer (looser)
  • Front toe-in will produce the opposite - understeer (tighter)
  • Steering response will be improved with front toe-out
  • Straight-line stability will be improved with front toe-in
I would add that rear toe-in will induce some oversteer, doesn't  it?
Codemasters explanation in the setup screen is still wrong for front toe-in/toe-out.

Toe-in at the rear is common to use with FWD cars to get the back end more stable, as the wheels are basically plowing against themselves. 

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OK, so my theory that grip is too high overal just became very apparent. It is not aero inducted grip (downforce), but tyre parameters.

If you go really slow (downforce next to zero), ie through those tight turns let's say in Australia, you will notice that using Hyundai R5 (very easy to oversteer car with right setup) after throwing car into the corner the slide is soon sopped by lateral grip.

If you powerslide with throttle, the slide also stops soon and car starts to jump forward because forward grip is also too high (overal tyre parameters are wrong). What it leads to is if you try to oversteer and try getting through the corner with similar degrees of rotation during the slide (direction of travel vs direction of the car degree that is) that real life onboards show, you will grab whatever is inside of the corner (dith, rocks, whatever).

That was also an issue in DR, it was actually much greater problem back then than it is now.

This is why it doesn't make much sence for cars to have oversteery setup. It is quicker to loose grip just a tiny bit (imagine driving on gravel but with similar to tarmac grip levels- you just mainain grip most of the time) than to try going realisticaly sideways and loose momentum for that short moment before you regain grip anyways.

IMHO it makes sence to brainstorm what values should be used instead, but I don't see how current situation can be percieved as proper regarding grip. Whole thing is also consistent with this picture of one of our users:

It also explains why donuts are so akward, and why some cars have problem keeping the wheels spinning gripless when starting off the line (subaru grA for example), also it could explain why cars stop in 2 seconds.

IMHO in the bigger picture another issue that it presents is lack of inertia feeling when going sideways- it gets neutralised by tyre grip too much.
EDIT: If you watch any real life onboard, you will notice how cars basically gradually "flow" around corners- the moment car looses and regains grip is much more snappy in DR.

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assuming the gravel/dirt is same at start of a rally as it is deeper into the stages,why wouldnt one think that wheelspin is an issue under full throttle in a lateral turn when you clearly can see cars suffering off the line at the start? Whether it a MK2 or a new WRC car, they both throw up ton of gravel.Wouldnt that be indicative of grip that HAS to be managed by throttle in the stages?

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Ill post this here too aswell to demonstrate a fast run (WR at the moment). Set the car up feeling pretty ok and the rain was definitely helping, but it felt like i was still digging into dry gravel throwing the car around hairpins, for example. And the shoulders of the tracks can suck the car in and sideways like snowbanks in sweden, that is another major annoyance i have with the game at the moment that I dont feel at all realistic. Check 5:10 timestamp, whats with the inside rear wheel lifting like that...?

https://youtu.be/ZfLqksXNGmA

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hegheeD said:
Ill post this here too aswell to demonstrate a fast run (WR at the moment). Set the car up feeling pretty ok and the rain was definitely helping, but it felt like i was still digging into dry gravel throwing the car around hairpins, for example. And the shoulders of the tracks can suck the car in and sideways like snowbanks in sweden, that is another major annoyance i have with the game at the moment that I dont feel at all realistic. Check 5:10 timestamp, whats with the inside rear wheel lifting like that...?

The 5:10 is why I've called a gravity at the first call. But it's not consistent. Try to jump from a ditch - flying Boeing. After 60 hours I'm really confused what is it. The Focus 07 for example sometimes on gravel in Wales seems on spot when you hook/catch the grass. Other time it throws you into 270 degrees spin. 
On the other hand driving downhill feels really good IMHO.
Uphill doesn't. It's a bit like Jupiter gravity. 

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more i listen to this forum the more i think it may be scripted handling physiscs ...........is that possible ,for those in the know?

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gheeD said:
Ill post this here too aswell to demonstrate a fast run (WR at the moment). Set the car up feeling pretty ok and the rain was definitely helping, but it felt like i was still digging into dry gravel throwing the car around hairpins, for example. And the shoulders of the tracks can suck the car in and sideways like snowbanks in sweden, that is another major annoyance i have with the game at the moment that I dont feel at all realistic. Check 5:10 timestamp, whats with the inside rear wheel lifting like that...?

https://youtu.be/ZfLqksXNGmA
Just had a quick look at that clip. Did you speed the replay up? If you didn't it looks... well.. a bit ridicolous. 

The front end of the car can change direction extremely quick. I believe that was one thing Meeke asked for when trying the game. So how did they do it? Maybe that small tweak affected everything?

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Drove the Daily Live Stage last night....was Wales and the Lancia Delta S4...thoughts:
-Experienced the same 270 degree spin-out like other cars I've driven in Wales.
-Some jumps the air-time I experience seems wayyyy to long/high?? 
-Can't really comment on car-setup as it's disabled in Daily Live Stage, but certainly was a tricky beast to handle (but that could be because it's a light, mid-mounted engine, space-frame, 500HP insane rally car (haha)

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Speaking about gravity... What if the center of mass is off? I assume they got real data about this for the cars and this isn't a problem, but wouldn't that have any influence on the handling? Like if it's set to the rear, then doesn't that come with increased grip in the back and understeer, because the front is losing it? Maybe it's something different with similar effects?

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RWD is also off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSjm6ejAuVI

Also must see instructional video. Please note braking distance on onboard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUBG2me2zqA


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yes the games fun but its just the feeling of knowing something isnt right which is subtracting from a great game.

escort mk2 today absolutely flicking the hell out of it in all manners of ways on gravel/tarmac set three world records but it doesnt feel like a escort.sometimes it feels fwd.sometimes it feels like its on a middle pole.understeer or maybe like a secret stabalizer applied to stop it from going to far

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SamRWD said:
RWD is also off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSjm6ejAuVI

Also must see instructional video. Please note braking distance on onboard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUBG2me2zqA


@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD

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fab1701 said:
Speaking about gravity... What if the center of mass is off? I assume they got real data about this for the cars and this isn't a problem, but wouldn't that have any influence on the handling? Like if it's set to the rear, then doesn't that come with increased grip in the back and understeer, because the front is losing it? Maybe it's something different with similar effects?
@fab1701 well with the Lancia Delta S4, seen as the engine is behind the driver, the centre of mass I think is correct.  But I think the gravity thing is an issue on jumps...too much airtime I think...not realistic??  Happy to be corrected on it, just my opinion

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fab1701 said:
Speaking about gravity... What if the center of mass is off? I assume they got real data about this for the cars and this isn't a problem, but wouldn't that have any influence on the handling? Like if it's set to the rear, then doesn't that come with increased grip in the back and understeer, because the front is losing it? Maybe it's something different with similar effects?
@fab1701 well with the Lancia Delta S4, seen as the engine is behind the driver, the centre of mass I think is correct.  But I think the gravity thing is an issue on jumps...too much airtime I think...not realistic??  Happy to be corrected on it, just my opinion
@TIMDATOOLMAN83 Yeah, that makes sense for the Lancia ;). What about cars with front mounted engines? Would be interesting to test how spare tires influence the handling.

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The air time is so much better than DiRT Rally that it wouldn't even bother me. Seems pretty realistic at the speeds I've taken bumps at. Haven't played much with the Group B cars myself, though.

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dgeesi0 said:
yes the games fun but its just the feeling of knowing something isnt right which is subtracting from a great game.

escort mk2 today absolutely flicking the hell out of it in all manners of ways on gravel/tarmac set three world records but it doesnt feel like a escort.sometimes it feels fwd.sometimes it feels like its on a middle pole.understeer or maybe like a secret stabalizer applied to stop it from going to far
During a powerslide too high tyre grip (all directions- lateral and forward) makes all other factors that you consider when powersliding off!

LATERAL cancels inertia pulling the car outside of the corner and forward (car regains stability and straightens it pararell to car's direction)
FORWARD (sorry, don't know the actual English word) affects throttle control that's making a spinning tyre fight to move car forward the direction that you controll with steering wheel. (EDIT: that's what makes car just jump forward after lateral grip is regained)

Combined they make a car just jump forward after a brief moment instead of slowly matching two traveling lines  
FIRST -just inertia with no forward momentum coming from spinning tyre
SECON - no inertia, just forward momentum comming from tyre spin

ON TOP OF THAT there is also aero downforce that kicks in as soon as the speed is high enough.

It is impossible for a car to act realistic in powerslide (and in other condition as well- ie braking). 

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@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Tarmac is not the problem, only the cars' movement is off.

Gravel and snow is where they struggle to slide.

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@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Yup :) I actually saw a YT footage of one guy doing insane drift drive with a controller. If there was one surface that I can enjoy in D4, it's most def tarmac, but it's still far from perfect. It just seems really enjoyable after realising loose stuff's issues :(

EDIT it was apparently a wheel, but... well see it for yourself ;)
https://youtu.be/OCHNXSuOnQo

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@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Tarmac is not the problem, only the cars' movement is off.

Gravel and snow is where they struggle to slide.
100% agree (btw I wasn't complaining =D =D )

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SamRWD said:
@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Yup :) I actually saw a YT footage of one guy doing insane drift drive with a controller. If there was one surface that I can enjoy in D4, it's most def tarmac, but it's still far from perfect. It just seems really enjoyable after realising loose stuff's issues :(

EDIT it was apparently a wheel, but... well see it for yourself ;)
https://youtu.be/OCHNXSuOnQo
cool video and great driving ,but!.......................if you look at e30 M3 rally videos ,the rally spec cars are never driven like that .In drift competition they are though.My point and opinion is that to get oversteer out of an inherently oversteery chassis,one shouldnt  have to drive like a drifter.

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SamRWD said:
@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Yup :) I actually saw a YT footage of one guy doing insane drift drive with a controller. If there was one surface that I can enjoy in D4, it's most def tarmac, but it's still far from perfect. It just seems really enjoyable after realising loose stuff's issues :(

EDIT it was apparently a wheel, but... well see it for yourself ;)
https://youtu.be/OCHNXSuOnQo
Good driving on atrocious physics.

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SamRWD said:
@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Yup :) I actually saw a YT footage of one guy doing insane drift drive with a controller. If there was one surface that I can enjoy in D4, it's most def tarmac, but it's still far from perfect. It just seems really enjoyable after realising loose stuff's issues :(

EDIT it was apparently a wheel, but... well see it for yourself ;)
https://youtu.be/OCHNXSuOnQo
cool video and great driving ,but!.......................if you look at e30 M3 rally videos ,the rally spec cars are never driven like that .In drift competition they are though.My point and opinion is that to get oversteer out of an inherently oversteery chassis,one shouldnt  have to drive like a drifter.
Agreed 100%!
Just showed it as an example of what you should be able to do if you go with extreme setup. Because that's all we can do on gravel with most of the cars- go extreme to make it drive a little bit more like a real car would.

Here is a very nice run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrpkcdkK5FU
How can those of us who want to oversteer the way we see on onboards compete when you can drive with virtually no sliding in this game?

Watch any D4 "world record" onboard- all of them drive like this.

If real cars could go through corners that way, no real world driver would drive the way they do right now. Furthermore- if they could go a little bit faster by powersliding less even by one degree, they would. But they don't because real cars don't have this much grip and real cars inertia would throw them outside of the corner if they didn't counter that with a slide.

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SamRWD said:
@SamRWD have you driven the M3 in Spain yet??  Insane oversteer!! xD
Yup :) I actually saw a YT footage of one guy doing insane drift drive with a controller. If there was one surface that I can enjoy in D4, it's most def tarmac, but it's still far from perfect. It just seems really enjoyable after realising loose stuff's issues :(

EDIT it was apparently a wheel, but... well see it for yourself ;)
https://youtu.be/OCHNXSuOnQo
cool video and great driving ,but!.......................if you look at e30 M3 rally videos ,the rally spec cars are never driven like that .In drift competition they are though.My point and opinion is that to get oversteer out of an inherently oversteery chassis,one shouldnt  have to drive like a drifter.
@Madhun1967 agreed....actually tbh I tried to re-set the car up to make it as understeery as poss but the thing was still really tail-happy!!  Eeeeek

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