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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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SO. Let me see if I've got this right....

Someone says that:

"The game does not have enough grip." "I can only get 1.5g on the game." Rally cars should be able to pull 3g" "game needs more grip"


And then the people who are arguing that the game already has to much grip say:

"Rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g" "1.5g is normal for a rally car"


Am I right so far?


So... If the game won't allow more than 1.5g when cornering, and the people who say the game already has to much grip agree that IRL, rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g, then surely? the grip level in the game is correct?

According to telemetry anyway. 


I'm confused... :D


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Gordouxk said:
Also so in the bottom video you posted I see about 1.7 g at 3:11 and abou 1.3 to 1.4 g when braking a few times. 
Still a lot lower than what you claimed :
Gordouxk said:

I must admit I thought so too at first but now im not too sure. with telemetry I cant get the car to go over 1.5g on gravel, but in real life rally cars exceed 2.5 -3.0 gforces when cornering on gravel.


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Accro2008 said:
Gordouxk said:
Also so in the bottom video you posted I see about 1.7 g at 3:11 and abou 1.3 to 1.4 g when braking a few times. 
Still a lot lower than what you claimed :
Gordouxk said:

I must admit I thought so too at first but now im not too sure. with telemetry I cant get the car to go over 1.5g on gravel, but in real life rally cars exceed 2.5 -3.0 gforces when cornering on gravel.


It's not wha I claimed. It's what the video shows. Is it possibly that if that corner was a bit more banked like in NASCAR, the g force could go higher by another 0.3 or even 0.5 g to over. 2g. I don't think I can get this much g force in dirt 4. 

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SamRWD said:
Is that Latvalas onboard? If it is he was saying he didn't use turbo. So not enough power to powerslide all the time. I am on mobile, so I cannot check myself. Or just check other on boards. Rally cars in general have no problem powerslidng at all. 
The thing is it might be slower to go sideways when you have a very fast corners and lots of grip because each time you go sideways you lose speed and revs. That's why you can see he is driving very straight, to keep the revs and the speed high.

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Evilsmurf said:

SO. Let me see if I've got this right....

Someone says that:

"The game does not have enough grip." "I can only get 1.5g on the game." Rally cars should be able to pull 3g" "game needs more grip"


And then the people who are arguing that the game already has to much grip say:

"Rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g" "1.5g is normal for a rally car"


Am I right so far?


So... If the game won't allow more than 1.5g when cornering, and the people who say the game already has to much grip agree that IRL, rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g, then surely? the grip level in the game is correct?

According to telemetry anyway. 


I'm confused... :D


I believe the game has a proper amount of grip. I think @fab1701 thinks so too. 

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Evilsmurf said:

SO. Let me see if I've got this right....

Someone says that:

"The game does not have enough grip." "I can only get 1.5g on the game." Rally cars should be able to pull 3g" "game needs more grip"


And then the people who are arguing that the game already has to much grip say:

"Rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g" "1.5g is normal for a rally car"


Am I right so far?


So... If the game won't allow more than 1.5g when cornering, and the people who say the game already has to much grip agree that IRL, rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g, then surely? the grip level in the game is correct?

According to telemetry anyway. 


I'm confused... :D


I was more talking about the fact that a rallycar IRL can't put over 3g on gravel, I didn't talk about the grip level in Dirt4 (for me there is just an "issue" that does weird stuff to the rear of the car preventing them from powersliding).

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Accro2008 said:
Evilsmurf said:

SO. Let me see if I've got this right....

Someone says that:

"The game does not have enough grip." "I can only get 1.5g on the game." Rally cars should be able to pull 3g" "game needs more grip"


And then the people who are arguing that the game already has to much grip say:

"Rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g" "1.5g is normal for a rally car"


Am I right so far?


So... If the game won't allow more than 1.5g when cornering, and the people who say the game already has to much grip agree that IRL, rally cars can't pull more than 1.5g, then surely? the grip level in the game is correct?

According to telemetry anyway. 


I'm confused... :D


I was more talking about the fact that a rallycar IRL can't put over 3g on gravel, I didn't talk about the grip level in Dirt4 (for me there is just an "issue" that does weird stuff to the rear of the car preventing them from powersliding).
I can power slide fine. But if the cars in dirt4 have more grip than in dirt rally and the tires can sink into the gravel that would mean that powersliding will be harder. I think that's normal and I don't think it's unrealistic. 

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Gordouxk said:
I can power slide fine. But if the cars in dirt4 have more grip than in dirt rally and the tires can sink into the gravel that would mean that powersliding will be harder. I think that's normal and I don't think it's unrealistic. 
Before on this topic there was a guy named "Headstrong", i think you would have liked him, it's almost as you are the same person.

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Accro2008 said:
Gordouxk said:
I can power slide fine. But if the cars in dirt4 have more grip than in dirt rally and the tires can sink into the gravel that would mean that powersliding will be harder. I think that's normal and I don't think it's unrealistic. 
Before on this topic there was a guy named "Headstrong", i think you would have liked him, it's almost as you are the same person.
I know I've been reading this for nearly 2 weeks. All his posts got erased? He's the reason I bought the game on Friday. He and Fab1701 and Versedi and a few others. 

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Let's not forget that in game g meter can be broken too. I would focus on car behavior personally. 
Edit :also hope headbong knows ban evasion is not tolerated. 

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I think the g-forces and grip levels are pretty much spot on in Dirt 4, considering there will always be some variations between those kind of surfaces. So seeing less average g in one video and more average g in a different video just adds to that. I'm pretty convinced that the difficulties to properly powerslide some vehicles is a car dependent parameter variation, because not all cars are affected the same. Changes in surface and tire parameters would lead to changed behaviour with all cars, including the wonderful R5 cars and the NR4 Subaru Impreza <3.

So you can setup the Mk2 and cossie to let their rear step out under sudden full throttle from a very low speed, but it's very twitchy and hard to control. Likewise if you look at how cars react to collisions, getting thrown around really easily, but then suddenly cancel their movement by just regaining traction, this to me is the effect of a low rotational moment of inertia. This should also affect how cars react to acceleration, because if you look at the subaru 2001 at dirtfish, this car just pitches up so hard that it directly goes into understeer, RWDs have an increased rear traction and FWD cars have issues to get traction when they just turned after a hairpin and the weight shift to the rear. Thats maybe why you can get the subaru to doughnut when you stiffen up and highten the rear and make the front way softer and lower to counter this effect. In powerslides a low rotational moment should lead to very twitchy control, because every variation in the balance of the rear giving power and the surface countering with lateral grip on the tires then has a greater impact on the cars overall movement, how it is now. Also rolling the car, even under high rotation stops when the car just hits the road right with the tires instead of continuing it's roll. It's even possible to initialise a roll or flip with the suspension rebound after clipping one side of the wheels ever so sligthly. That said, rolling is actually way easier then yawing, because of the mass distribution, so thats why these rolls in crashes look so much better and actually quite realistic in the replays. Modern cars don't seem to be affected that much, because they are build to have a lower rotational moment of inertia in order to be more resposive by design, and their pitching might be better because of a potentially lower center of gravity and better aerodynamics. So these cars you don't have to flick the scandinavian style anymore, because of that. Also I think it's actually not that easy to get these values right if there isn't any data about the exact weight distribution. Because you cant determine this by weighting a car and need to have a testsetup, that rotates the whole vehicle back and forth and measures the forces directly. Maybe thats one of the factors that needs to get dialed in by experienced drivers of these cars, because they know and have the feeling ;).

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"I think the g-forces and grip levels are pretty much spot on in Dirt 4, considering there will always be some variations between those kind of surfaces." 

We get that here often recently. But I had to post an extrememe example of real life footage to find something resembling D4. Even then there significant differences. So if we are simulating some extreme offroad experience then D4 is similar to those. Still off, but similar. Wales has invisible deep ruts and banks everywhere in D4. 

If we want to simulate typical real world rallies, then we are not getting that in current build. 

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lets just say it straight. WE DONT KNOW WHAT WRONG. :D we just know it doesnt feel right.or drive right in certain locations/situations.

what it could be is a massive amount of factors of which literally no of us know which it is.

videos have been shown of real life cars
g metre footage
people who are best in the world at the game
real life rally people.

but no one has pinpointed what is exactly causing anything.

im hoping this friday we get to hear something.

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dgeesi0 said:
lets just say it straight. WE DONT KNOW WHAT WRONG. :D we just know it doesnt feel right.or drive right in certain locations/situations.

what it could be is a massive amount of factors of which literally no of us know which it is.

videos have been shown of real life cars
g metre footage
people who are best in the world at the game
real life rally people.

but no one has pinpointed what is exactly causing anything.

im hoping this friday we get to hear something.
I agree 100%. At the very basic this is all guesswork. But still, I have a really strong feeling that the rotational moment plays a significant role in this and I feel this needs to be discussed ;).

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In-game 'G' doesn't exist.  It's just numbers on a screen.  Comparing real telemetry to in-game telemetry is like arguing that Donald Trump weighs more than Homer Simpson!

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Yup, I personally also think there might be something off with distance meter on in-game telemetry. 

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KevM said:
In-game 'G' doesn't exist.  It's just numbers on a screen.  Comparing real telemetry to in-game telemetry is like arguing that Donald Trump weighs more than Homer Simpson!
Technically you're right, but you have to compare it, because only then it's possible to figure out how good a model of the real world, in this case a simulation, actually is. If there is a difference, even if it's very tiny, then it's the reason to ask 'why is that?' and try and improve it.

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Time is the only factor that we can be sure of. Unless there is accurate distance reference we cannot verify if g meter is accurate in game. Same with speed and distance. 

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SamRWD said:
Time is the only factor that we can be sure of. Unless there is accurate distance reference we cannot verify if g meter is accurate in game. Same with speed and distance. 
But there is. The absolute position data of the objects in the world space in dirt 4 is measured in metres and is transmitted for the car in the telemetry data. Thats where I got the distances for the braking test I made.

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Yes, but again those are just numbers. We would have to measure for example how big the car is knowing its real world dimensions  compared to environment reference before we can be sure of that. 

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I'm pretty sure the car dimensions are right, because I cant think of any reason why they would use different systems for object and world coordinates. That wouldn't make any sense.

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I hope they are right, but all we can be sure of are proportions, not scale vs environment. 

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One actually could drive a car to a specific point of reference in the environment that lines up with the front, drive a bit forward, that the same point lines up with the rear and take the position data to see the distance, that is the length of the car. I assure you it's correct ;).

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Has anyone tried Simulation with traction control ON? Maybe the setting is reversed, like the differentials setup description...

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