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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Narzugon said:
kobeshow said:
I just tested this in Michigan on a short stage. You can lock your wheels, you feel the loss of contorl and you can even hear the car sliding when the brakes are locked. 
You can see the effect in the replay, but something strange happens if you are still at speed and lock the wheels up. They stop spinning overall but rotate incrementally, as if  they gripped to the surface and the brakes are just not enough to stop the rotation completely. No video unfortunately but easily repeatable.
By rotate incrementally do you mean like where ABS's stop/start rotation to try and gain traction?  
Yes that is what it looked like. I tested with all assissts off.
The incremental rotation could be caused by many things though, might be surface/tire interaction (perception of "too much grip"), or assisst still working in the background although turned off. Might aswell be something else (aero pushing down too muchr?), all we can do is guess, and with no feedback from CM it is just frustrating ): 

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Yeah no problem to lock the brakes at all, but as you say, some cars behaves like they still have ABS. They lock, let go, lock, let go.

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Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

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TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?

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nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?

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Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.

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bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?

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Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.

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If assists are also reversed I will stop trusting devs. It is just not possible. 

But hidden assists are a real concern and we deserve explanation this time. I hope that's not assists but an issue with surface/tyres friction vs brakes friction. Someone said brake values in setup are higher than they were in DR. Can enyone confirm, or deny? Could wheels be locked in Dirt Rally? 

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SamRWD said:
If assists are also reversed I will stop trusting devs. It is just not possible. 

But hidden assists are a real concern and we deserve explanation this time. I hope that's not assists but an issue with surface/tyres friction vs brakes friction. Someone said brake values in setup are higher than they were in DR. Can enyone confirm, or deny? Could wheels be locked in Dirt Rally? 
Risk should always be minimal but sadly always possibility. Human error, tight schedules etc. It is still quite many lines of code and it might be hard to see a problems sometimes. I don't of course know how it is done in the game, but as easy as it is to check & test i think it is wise for us to try assists for possible errors.

Also from a business point errors are always seem to be a bad thing, so i think atleast business side of CM probably wants us to know as little as possible about those.

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SamRWD said:
Someone said brake values in setup are higher than they were in DR. Can enyone confirm, or deny? Could wheels be locked in Dirt Rally? 
well, in Dirt 4 I noticed brake strength default for dry asphalt/tarmac is somewhere around 3,300, for the Ford Focus 2001, in Dirt Rally it's 2,700 for dry aslphalt/tarmac stages and the default strength values seem to be set relatively higher across the board in Dirt 4 in a variety of vehicles and conditions but I don't believe this can be directly compared.

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nbates66 said:
SamRWD said:
Someone said brake values in setup are higher than they were in DR. Can enyone confirm, or deny? Could wheels be locked in Dirt Rally? 
well, in Dirt 4 I noticed brake strength default for dry asphalt/tarmac is somewhere around 3,300, for the Ford Focus 2001, in Dirt Rally it's 2,700 for dry aslphalt/tarmac stages and the default strength values seem to be set relatively higher across the board in Dirt 4 in a variety of vehicles and conditions but I don't believe this can be directly compared.
It can though, here is the brake strength of the Focus 2009 on wales. In DiRT 4, the 2009 on Wales has 3,080.00 N-m by default.


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bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.
I'm quite sure they are right. In the GT Apex book on car setup it says:

front toe in and rear toe in  = front responsiveness increases and tendency to understeer. 

Front toe in and rear toe out = front responsiveness increases and there is tendency to oversteer.

front toe out and rear toe in = front responsiveness decreases and there is tendency to understeer

front toe out and rear toe out = front responsiveness decreases and tendency to oversteer.

ive used these settings for years in all the sims and they work. On Sunday I drove the stratos in dirt 4 and I make the front toe in and rear toe out and it makes the car more responsive and it oversteers a lot even if I don't touch any other setting. 


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chukonu said:
nbates66 said:
SamRWD said:
Someone said brake values in setup are higher than they were in DR. Can enyone confirm, or deny? Could wheels be locked in Dirt Rally? 
well, in Dirt 4 I noticed brake strength default for dry asphalt/tarmac is somewhere around 3,300, for the Ford Focus 2001, in Dirt Rally it's 2,700 for dry aslphalt/tarmac stages and the default strength values seem to be set relatively higher across the board in Dirt 4 in a variety of vehicles and conditions but I don't believe this can be directly compared.
It can though, here is the brake strength of the Focus 2009 on wales>
no... I'm aware you can check the values in both games (as I just did) I was trying to say the numbers might not scale in the exact same way across the different games.

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Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.
I'm quite sure they are right. In the GT Apex book on car setup it says:

front toe in and rear toe in  = front responsiveness increases and tendency to understeer. 

Front toe in and rear toe out = front responsiveness increases and there is tendency to oversteer.

front toe out and rear toe in = front responsiveness decreases and there is tendency to understeer

front toe out and rear toe out = front responsiveness decreases and tendency to oversteer.

ive used these settings for years in all the sims and they work. On Sunday I drove the stratos in dirt 4 and I make the front toe in and rear toe out and it makes the car more responsive and it oversteers a lot even if I don't touch any other setting. 


Nope. Front toe-in does not give you better turn-in response, toe-out does but at the cost of straight line stability. Surely you can play around with the rear toe to get the best of both worlds but this is refering to front toe alone.

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Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.
I'm quite sure they are right. In the GT Apex book on car setup it says:

front toe in and rear toe in  = front responsiveness increases and tendency to understeer. 

Front toe in and rear toe out = front responsiveness increases and there is tendency to oversteer.

front toe out and rear toe in = front responsiveness decreases and there is tendency to understeer

front toe out and rear toe out = front responsiveness decreases and tendency to oversteer.

ive used these settings for years in all the sims and they work. On Sunday I drove the stratos in dirt 4 and I make the front toe in and rear toe out and it makes the car more responsive and it oversteers a lot even if I don't touch any other setting. 


I was a bit confused by this aswell but it seems correct in D4 now, as front toe in should make the steering response faster due to the outside wheel (that gets most weight on it) already being turrned in the direction of the bend. Opposite on the rear, where toe in makes the rear push into the corner, while toe out would make it step out.

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bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.
I'm quite sure they are right. In the GT Apex book on car setup it says:

front toe in and rear toe in  = front responsiveness increases and tendency to understeer. 

Front toe in and rear toe out = front responsiveness increases and there is tendency to oversteer.

front toe out and rear toe in = front responsiveness decreases and there is tendency to understeer

front toe out and rear toe out = front responsiveness decreases and tendency to oversteer.

ive used these settings for years in all the sims and they work. On Sunday I drove the stratos in dirt 4 and I make the front toe in and rear toe out and it makes the car more responsive and it oversteers a lot even if I don't touch any other setting. 


Nope. Front toe-in does not give you better turn-in response, toe-out does but at the cost of straight line stability. Surely you can play around with the rear toe to get the best of both worlds but this is refering to front toe alone.
Where did you read this? Every book on car set up says that toe in on front increase turn in response. On the rapid-racer.com website it says that too much front toe in makes the initial turn in good but front progressively wasshes out as the car goes through the corner.

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Dytut said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
bogani said:
Gordouxk said:
nbates66 said:
TuliRally said:
Next thing to try braking test with ABS on. If indeed they got some settings reversed by mistake. Same for traction control as suggested before. 

there certainly does seem to be a few things that've been reversed so far, the descriptions for tuning categories come to mind the most, wonder how this wound up being the case?
I didn't know about this. Which descriptions were reversed?
The slider for center diff tourqe was reversed but is fixed now. The one that remains is a faulty description of front toe. They are aware of that though.
What's wrong with the front toe?
It states toe out aids stability and toe in turn in response. It's the other way around.
I'm quite sure they are right. In the GT Apex book on car setup it says:

front toe in and rear toe in  = front responsiveness increases and tendency to understeer. 

Front toe in and rear toe out = front responsiveness increases and there is tendency to oversteer.

front toe out and rear toe in = front responsiveness decreases and there is tendency to understeer

front toe out and rear toe out = front responsiveness decreases and tendency to oversteer.

ive used these settings for years in all the sims and they work. On Sunday I drove the stratos in dirt 4 and I make the front toe in and rear toe out and it makes the car more responsive and it oversteers a lot even if I don't touch any other setting. 


I was a bit confused by this aswell but it seems correct in D4 now, as front toe in should make the steering response faster due to the outside wheel (that gets most weight on it) already being turrned in the direction of the bend. Opposite on the rear, where toe in makes the rear push into the corner, while toe out would make it step out.
That's what I always thought. It works in Assetto Corsa and Project Cars too, not just in Dirt4.

Also I'm thinking maybe that's why some people are saying their cars straighten out. They make opposite toe settings to what they should be.

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You shouldn't think Toe adjustments as a cornering factor (when loaded). Toe adjustments are used for stabilizing the car and for quicker/slower initial turn-in. Toe-out is the thing that doesn't give you oversteer but gives you less stability and quicker turn-in. Toe-in results slower turn-in and more straight line stability. 

Toe adjustment is not for mid-corner nor corner exits. Only straight line and turn-in.

In case you still think it's the opposite:
https://youtu.be/d0voTx7AuZQ

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Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)

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Point is, whatever is leaning on the car "in the name of downforce", is waaayyy too much.  

All the balance & finesse has been disrupted by the force.

Let Gamer stay as is, but please copy & paste whatever Dirtfish has, onto the gravel stages and make everything good!!

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fab1701 said:
Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)
I think it also matters if he car is fwd or RWD. If the car is FWD toe in will help the car turn quicker I think. 

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Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)
I think it also matters if he car is fwd or RWD. If the car is FWD toe in will help the car turn quicker I think. 
Yes it does matter, but doesn't change the effect. FWDs come with more toe-out, because the power on the front wheels forces them to the front, bending them straight in the process, RWDs on the other hand come with a bit of toe-in, because the tires in the front, that aren't driven get pushed back and straighten out that way. Because normally you want the tires to be parallel to each other. That changes in a turn though.

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fab1701 said:
Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)
I think it also matters if he car is fwd or RWD. If the car is FWD toe in will help the car turn quicker I think. 
Yes it does matter, but doesn't change the effect. FWDs come with more toe-out, because the power on the front wheels forces them to the front, bending them straight in the process, RWDs on the other hand come with a bit of toe-in, because the tires in the front, that aren't driven get pushed back and straighten out that way. Because normally you want the tires to be parallel to each other. That changes in a turn though.
But toe out on the rear will still increase oversteer and make the car straighten out less? 

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  KevM said:
Point is, whatever is leaning on the car "in the name of downforce", is waaayyy too much.  

All the balance & finesse has been disrupted by the force.

Let Gamer stay as is, but please copy & paste whatever Dirtfish has, onto the gravel stages and make everything good!!


If the cars mostly feel fine on Dirtfish and not out on the stages it can only be how the tire interact with the surface modeling on the stages I guess.

Sometimes if I take a car to Dirtfish and then to a gravel location directly after I have to double check I accidently didn't switch gamer mode on :/


I drove the NR4 Subaru in Sweden back to back in D4/DR yesterday and there is quite the difference. I know it's not the exact same car but still. In a way DR does feel less advanced as there is more a constant slip when you throw the car around, but damn it feels nice.

Another thing I noticed was that the audio in dash cam sound more raw in DR than D4. Putting the cars that now use a proper recording aside, I must say the sound overall is better in DR. More crisp and raw.

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