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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)
I think it also matters if he car is fwd or RWD. If the car is FWD toe in will help the car turn quicker I think. 
Yes it does matter, but doesn't change the effect. FWDs come with more toe-out, because the power on the front wheels forces them to the front, bending them straight in the process, RWDs on the other hand come with a bit of toe-in, because the tires in the front, that aren't driven get pushed back and straighten out that way. Because normally you want the tires to be parallel to each other. That changes in a turn though.
But toe out on the rear will still increase oversteer and make the car straighten out less? 
Yep. Toe-out on rear axle will make the car rotate better on turn-in.

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Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Gordouxk said:
fab1701 said:
Toe-out gives better turning response, because the inside wheel needs to travel on an smaller radius in a turn. So if the tires are pointed outside and you turn in, the inside wheel is turned in at an greater angle than the outside wheel, giving it this tendency to turn naturally. Thanks to bogani btw. I looked it up recently ;)
I think it also matters if he car is fwd or RWD. If the car is FWD toe in will help the car turn quicker I think. 
Yes it does matter, but doesn't change the effect. FWDs come with more toe-out, because the power on the front wheels forces them to the front, bending them straight in the process, RWDs on the other hand come with a bit of toe-in, because the tires in the front, that aren't driven get pushed back and straighten out that way. Because normally you want the tires to be parallel to each other. That changes in a turn though.
But toe out on the rear will still increase oversteer and make the car straighten out less? 
Yes I think it does, because toe-in on the rear increases rear stability as the tires are pushed against each other and weight transfer loads the outside wheel that wants to go in.

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Out of curiousity has anyone managed or attempted to tune problems out of the cars through setups? Have they succeeded?

Maybe the following isnt relevant. If so i apologise in advance but i want to share.

After a few weeks of driving exclusively the Mitsu evoX I found a sweetspot where the car feels almost perfect in its feel and handling responsiveness. On UK/Michigan/Aus surfaces. Theres no understeer on throttle, im able to power slide through corners fautlessly aswell as executing scandinavian flicks almost as easy as i did in Dirt Rally.

I achieved it by increasing both the suspension slow/fast bump 5.00, rebound around 0.00 with rear at 3.00 and rebound at -1.00. Also shifting all brake bias to as rear as possible. Setting the rebound and bump zone divisions to 0.00. Camber Front and Rear to 0.00 and dropping front and rear rollbars to 0. With rear toe out at 0.50. Front toe is neutral. Rear tender at max, front suspension tender around mid. With suspension stiffness on the soft side but providing about 20kg differenece between front(stiffer) and rear.

Differential settings on this setup gave me behaviour I was expecting from changing diff.

Higher front bump so far on all cars i've tried it on has cured the issue of cars snap oversteering out of a slide mid corner. After this experience im starting to think the games physics maybe close to spot on. Ofcourse its early and i need more time with other cars now.

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Could you make screenshots of that setup? I have found that car too frustrating to drive, I haven't touched it since I tested it on day one.

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@LittleApple
Can you try your magic setup skills with RWD cars? It would be interesting to see the results.

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Out of curiousity has anyone managed or attempted to tune problems out of the cars through setups? Have they succeeded?

Maybe the following isnt relevant. If so i apologise in advance but i want to share.

After a few weeks of driving exclusively the Mitsu evoX I found a sweetspot where the car feels almost perfect in its feel and handling responsiveness. On UK/Michigan/Aus surfaces. Theres no understeer on throttle, im able to power slide through corners fautlessly aswell as executing scandinavian flicks almost as easy as i did in Dirt Rally.

I achieved it by increasing both the suspension slow/fast bump 5.00, rebound around 0.00 with rear at 3.00 and rebound at -1.00. Also shifting all brake bias to as rear as possible. Setting the rebound and bump zone divisions to 0.00. Camber Front and Rear to 0.00 and dropping front and rear rollbars to 0. With rear toe out at 0.50. Front toe is neutral. Rear tender at max, front suspension tender around mid. With suspension stiffness on the soft side but providing about 20kg differenece between front(stiffer) and rear.

Differential settings on this setup gave me behaviour I was expecting from changing diff.

Higher front bump so far on all cars i've tried it on has cured the issue of cars snap oversteering out of a slide mid corner. After this experience im starting to think the games physics maybe close to spot on. Ofcourse its early and i need more time with other cars now.
Can you please upload some screenshots of your setup to imgur or similar?

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chukonu said:
Could you make screenshots of that setup? I have found that car too frustrating to drive, I haven't touched it since I tested it on day one.
If you want screenshots i'll have to post tomorrow (in about 20 hours from now? Im on my laptop and wont get access to my race rig until then. I detailed pretty much as much as i could about the setup. BTW that car was frustrating lol but i stuck with it because it was the only RHD 4wd car in the game i've seen so far lol.
PaloSamo said:
@LittleApple
Can you try your magic setup skills with RWD cars? It would be interesting to see the results.
 Funny you mention that as I i discovered this when i was trying to solve the Ford Escort Mk2 handling that lead me to this setup. Almost gave up on trying to get that car to handle well. As a last ditch effort just applied an old philosophy i'd heard from some ex F1 engineers some 10 years ago lol. I was shocked at the improvement but it still felt weird to me but key handling issues were solved. I intend to get around to the BMW E30 will see how i go with that. Was trying the 90's sierra costworth tonight and notice that car drives on gravel like its on tarmac so cant see myself spending more time on that car next session i get. It just has crazy amounts of grip.

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Yeah you can make the cars behave bit better to not show the freaky behaviour, but when you push over the limits the issues are still there.  Improvement for sure, but issues still remain.

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You can't solve these issues solely with setup tuning (although it certainly does help.) You can't get around the fact that cars like the Stratos and Escort Mk2 simply can't spin the rear wheels with throttle alone (completely incorrect behavior.) Especially with the Mk2 because it has a live rear axle and thus has no adjustments to be made at all to the rear suspension, just differential tweak.

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part of the joy is the characteristics of the cars you drive.if they dont have those then why even drive them ? thats where the fun is.as gheed said above people can drive the cars fast set world records but they just arent as they should be.why am i even typing this for 8th time :D


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Out of curiousity has anyone managed or attempted to tune problems out of the cars through setups? Have they succeeded?

Maybe the following isnt relevant. If so i apologise in advance but i want to share.

After a few weeks of driving exclusively the Mitsu evoX I found a sweetspot where the car feels almost perfect in its feel and handling responsiveness. On UK/Michigan/Aus surfaces. Theres no understeer on throttle, im able to power slide through corners fautlessly aswell as executing scandinavian flicks almost as easy as i did in Dirt Rally.

I achieved it by increasing both the suspension slow/fast bump 5.00, rebound around 0.00 with rear at 3.00 and rebound at -1.00. Also shifting all brake bias to as rear as possible. Setting the rebound and bump zone divisions to 0.00. Camber Front and Rear to 0.00 and dropping front and rear rollbars to 0. With rear toe out at 0.50. Front toe is neutral. Rear tender at max, front suspension tender around mid. With suspension stiffness on the soft side but providing about 20kg differenece between front(stiffer) and rear.

Differential settings on this setup gave me behaviour I was expecting from changing diff.

Higher front bump so far on all cars i've tried it on has cured the issue of cars snap oversteering out of a slide mid corner. After this experience im starting to think the games physics maybe close to spot on. Ofcourse its early and i need more time with other cars now.
Yes, setups make a big difference in this game, even small ones. I'm still learning a lot about setups and rally cars are a bit different to circuit racing cars so the same setups that work on circuit cars don't always work on rally cars the same. And bump setting is the part that I know the least about so I will have to get some books I think. 

I drove the Subaru 1995 Impreza and I got it handling really good by making toe in more at front and toe out a bit on rear and making the rear bar stiffer and by locking the differential. Also the Strotos is very good if you do the same to it and the lancia delta s4 group b. The only cars that I think are nice to drive without changing setups are the R5 cars and the Subaru n4. But I think the bump settings are also very important so it would be good to know more about them.

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http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/54016/is-dirt-4-dying/p3
Alf72 posted this link on another thread. Sums up current situation with D4 very well IMHO. I didn't know that whole "sim rally scene" thinks more of less the same we do here regarding physics. I hope devs will speak up soon, at least confirming WHAT exactly is going to be fixed would be nice (all we know so far is that "older, historic" cars need improvement, but I think even R5 are FAR from enjoyable atm).

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"Nice to drive" doesn't necessarily equate to realistic though. You're basically just putting a band-aid over a bigger problem, like dgeesi0 said above. You can't explain away how a powerful and extremely light RWD car is incapable of throttle-on oversteer on loose surfaces (not all RWD in D4 behave this way, examples being the M3 and Sierra Cossie as ones that are at least *capable* of breaking the rear tires loose.) Note that I'm talking about throttle-on oversteer, i.e. oversteer initiated by throttle input alone, which is different from tossing the car in a heavy-handed flick for example (where weight transfer is adding to the car's ability to oversteer.)

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You can't compare contemporary rallying Escorts rocking 300bhp+ engines that weigh less than your average American male, 6-speed gearboxes, and all-new running gear constructed from alloys that a 1975 NASA engineer could only dream of, with a car made in 1975. Just look those biscuit wheels! They make me shudder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEr78F-2acg I think people's expectations for the 'historical' vehicles are a bit erroneous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4VqdjTndGo Only one of those guys spun, and that's because he pulled the handbrake to avoid understeering in a slide off the road into a tree like everybody else... I don't wish to say "all is well" (I'm still thinking about this, something odd is happening...), but, when I look at my replays the Escort looks a great deal like a true-blue 70's Escort wriggling through the circuit. At 1.25x normal speed. I call it the 'Yakety Sax effect'. Try it with your next replay, on any vehicle - play Yakety Sax over it with no sound. I suppose you could say I've reached an a sort of Uncanny Valley effect here, something weird is happening under the bonnet - on that point I can agree.

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To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho. Reading that article, like the steam reviews (even those that recommend the game), feels like this 'vocal minority' just convinced most players that Dirt 4 isn't as realistic as Dirt Rally or fun as Dirt 3 was, even if this is not true. Because it's just too easy to argue by just mentioning keyphrases like 'wants to please everyone' and 'generic procedural content'. Looking at recent games like for example No Man's Sky, those things aren't well received anymore, even if it works perfectly fine in Dirt 4. Most reviewers argue that the handling is just too easy and then get hung up by every other thing that they can find to validate their opinion. Like ShodanCat said:
ShodanCat said:
"Nice to drive" doesn't necessarily equate to realistic though.
But getting beaten the DarkSouls-way doesn't equate to that either (I haven't seen any demons on the streets lately). So a game beeing hard, like Dirt Rally was, doesn't mean its more realistic because of that. And yes, setups make a HUGE difference, and many things can be tuned in and out in Dirt 4. I posted a setup for the Mk2 a while ago, that makes that car step out under throttle at low speed. Granted, it's still not near the realistic behaviour imo, but shows that it's not impossible. And these 'more aggressive and rally-like' setups that nearly work should be the basis of the physics discussion, and not the default 'neutral' setting that noboby would drive in a rally, because that doesn't make sense imo.

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fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho. Reading that article, like the steam reviews (even those that recommend the game), feels like this 'vocal minority' just convinced most players that Dirt 4 isn't as realistic as Dirt Rally or fun as Dirt 3 was, even if this is not true. Because it's just too easy to argue by just mentioning keyphrases like 'wants to please everyone' and 'generic procedural content'. Looking at recent games like for example No Man's Sky, those things aren't well received anymore, even if it works perfectly fine in Dirt 4. Most reviewers argue that the handling is just too easy and then get hung up by every other thing that they can find to validate their opinion. Like ShodanCat said:
ShodanCat said:
"Nice to drive" doesn't necessarily equate to realistic though.
But getting beaten the DarkSouls-way doesn't equate to that either (I haven't seen any demons on the streets lately). So a game beeing hard, like Dirt Rally was, doesn't mean its more realistic because of that. And yes, setups make a HUGE difference, and many things can be tuned in and out in Dirt 4. I posted a setup for the Mk2 a while ago, that makes that car step out under throttle at low speed. Granted, it's still not near the realistic behaviour imo, but shows that it's not impossible. And these 'more aggressive and rally-like' setups that nearly work should be the basis of the physics discussion, and not the default 'neutral' setting that noboby would drive in a rally, because that doesn't make sense imo.
Agree 100%. When I read people saying that Dirt rally is better or more realistic than Dirt 4 I can't believe my eyes. I also really like the handling and physics in a Dirt 4 the cars drive much more like real cars.

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fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho.
RWD's are pretty much broken.  They don't drive like a RWD car, simple as that.  I don't know why people sugar coat it or try to convince themselves it's not that bad.  Yes there are improvements you can feel in the physics but the issues of not being able to on-throttle oversteer or maintain any kind of sliding on loose surfaces is a game killing issue in a rally sim.  AWD have the same problem, they stop lateral sliding almost instantly and bog down during hairpins.  I've tried banging off the rev limiter while pulling the handbrake in 1st gear and I still can't get it to slide through a hairpin.  Not only does it feel wrong while driving, but replays look bad because the car moves around so unrealistically. 

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griev0r said:
fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho.
RWD's are pretty much broken.  They don't drive like a RWD car, simple as that.  I don't know why people sugar coat it or try to convince themselves it's not that bad.  Yes there are improvements you can feel in the physics but the issues of not being able to on-throttle oversteer or maintain any kind of sliding on loose surfaces is a game killing issue in a rally sim.  AWD have the same problem, they stop lateral sliding almost instantly and bog down during hairpins.  I've tried banging off the rev limiter while pulling the handbrake in 1st gear and I still can't get it to slide through a hairpin.  Not only does it feel wrong while driving, but replays look bad because the car moves around so unrealistically. 
griev0r said:
fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho.
RWD's are pretty much broken.  They don't drive like a RWD car, simple as that.  I don't know why people sugar coat it or try to convince themselves it's not that bad.  Yes there are improvements you can feel in the physics but the issues of not being able to on-throttle oversteer or maintain any kind of sliding on loose surfaces is a game killing issue in a rally sim.  AWD have the same problem, they stop lateral sliding almost instantly and bog down during hairpins.  I've tried banging off the rev limiter while pulling the handbrake in 1st gear and I still can't get it to slide through a hairpin.  Not only does it feel wrong while driving, but replays look bad because the car moves around so unrealistically. 
griev0r said:
fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho.
RWD's are pretty much broken.  They don't drive like a RWD car, simple as that.  I don't know why people sugar coat it or try to convince themselves it's not that bad.  Yes there are improvements you can feel in the physics but the issues of not being able to on-throttle oversteer or maintain any kind of sliding on loose surfaces is a game killing issue in a rally sim.  AWD have the same problem, they stop lateral sliding almost instantly and bog down during hairpins.  I've tried banging off the rev limiter while pulling the handbrake in 1st gear and I still can't get it to slide through a hairpin.  Not only does it feel wrong while driving, but replays look bad because the car moves around so unrealistically. 
I disagree. I love the Stratos and the lancia 037 and the Abarth. These cars can slide through hairpins on the power and there are even many videos on YouTube of people sliding on the power. 

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Gordouxk said:
 I disagree. I love the Stratos and the lancia 037 and the Abarth. These cars can slide through hairpins on the power and there are even many videos on YouTube of people sliding on the power. 
Yeah in slow corners it's easy enough to get them sliding. But at speed their butts won't do much.

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griev0r said:
fab1701 said:
To be fair, I think the issues are getting blown up quite a bit. Sure, RWDs might have some problems with on-throttle oversteer maintaining in powerslides and there might be some other things that aren't perfect, but after all, Dirt 4 is a massive improvement over Dirt Rally in nearly every other aspect imho.
RWD's are pretty much broken.  They don't drive like a RWD car, simple as that.  I don't know why people sugar coat it or try to convince themselves it's not that bad.  Yes there are improvements you can feel in the physics but the issues of not being able to on-throttle oversteer or maintain any kind of sliding on loose surfaces is a game killing issue in a rally sim.  AWD have the same problem, they stop lateral sliding almost instantly and bog down during hairpins.  I've tried banging off the rev limiter while pulling the handbrake in 1st gear and I still can't get it to slide through a hairpin.  Not only does it feel wrong while driving, but replays look bad because the car moves around so unrealistically. 
Well, I didn't say there isn't a problem and yes, it's a bit frustrating coming from Dirt Rally, but at the end of the day it's important to look at real car behaviour to fix that and not by looking back at other sims like Dirt Rally or RBR. I'm sure that this is a thing that warps perceptions, because I experienced it the same way at first.

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dirt rally was easy, because it was natural. dirt 4 hard cuz not


ps. if u think hotlapping real stages is not rally u need to wake up to what wrc is. Because they study recce videos 8 hours per day, famous stages are driven for so many years the veterans know them as well as we do on dirt rally.

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You can test your rear-grip levels in a given situation by stamping on the clutch and unloading the wheels. Try this out. You want to engineer some heavy relative slip (between front and rear - i.e. oversteer), but it's the sudden release of load on the wheels at an extreme slip-angle that makes you truly step-out. The Escort can made to reliably oversteer (generally, you want a neutral balance for a given surface, then adjust for more oversteer by softening the front end relative to the rear; primarily in your dampers and rollbars - soften bump and stiffen rebound), but whether it drifts good is up to the user. You got to make it work, there's a reason they don't make 'em like they used to.

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Think people blow things out of proportions because when people start discussing things and disagreeing you want to highlight faults. Especially to hard-heads like Headlong - as a matter of fact I was more on his side than most people here but tended to oppose him just because of the tone.

Said it before, they shot themselves in the foot with the terrible default understeer setups. Then shot themselves in the foot again for the equally terribly implemented tuning skill mechanic. I'd say 4 out of 5 understeering cars can be fixed with setup within those 10 shakedowns but some cars still seem inherently flawed and to me their behavior is not believable. The developers have acknowledged this but not publicly enough which turns people angry because only a small percentage watched the DiRT Show.

It's a shame because this game is a diamond that got buried under negativity.

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well the thing is did they think it would be mainly played by the arcade crowd of like dirt 2/3 who wont mind easy . dirt 3 was as easy to drive as this and thats why dirt rally was such a breath of fresh air when it came out.

its the basic things which are lacking and why so many after coming from dirt rally are pointing them out.

just things like powering out of corners backend coming round its simple but it has to be there.as i said before dirt rally felt like a project of love and we really put our hearts and souls into it.not for money just to get a great game out. dirt 4 feels like a commercial product.not saying hard work was put in just feels kinda soul less.

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