Jump to content
DIRT 5 - Chat about the game and get support here. Read more... ×
Christmas Period - Codemasters Staff and Support Read more... ×

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

Recommended Posts

Mystx24 said:
hawku0 said
I have tested with different ARB, spring and bump/rebound settings, but i can't get rid of that problem.

Grass isn't that slippery in Dirt 4. You can easily climb a 45 degree hill with an AWD car when you go off the road in Wales.
That snap oversteer doesn't happen when there is no bump in between the road and the grass.
Speaking of springs and bumps, I was watching the latest footage from Poland WRC. It is always amazing to see the suspension at work. It makes the car look like it floates or hovers steadily above ground, while the suspension absorbs all and every bumps and banks.

https://youtu.be/2eYJQSKHGVA

I tried to reproduce the i20 R5 to look and feel like in those videos (Fitzroy), but I am not able to get there. It looks like the suspension in D4 is often unable to cope with all the bumps and the tyres are not really constantly in contact with the surface as in those videos. Is anyone able to achieve such great suspension work?


Try my setup its super plush this game requires it. The roads are so rough. It is do able i am no longer being pulled by the off main road driving. Super smooth and fast now. 

Ps: i can make a vid if needed once home from work. I want people to like this game it has been a real tuning experience so far. My tuning experience prior to this is tuning 10th scale short course trucks. Had to learn how to adjust to be fast
I would really appreciate a vid. Thanks for offering. I have been rage quitting this game after an hour since June 6th. Everything just feels so off. I have managed to improve some things through setups thanks to my own experimentation as well as pointers in this thread but it's still very frustrating.

Before D4 I was easily jumping between DiRT Rally, Loeb Rally EVO and WRC 6 as all three of those titles have something in common: intuitive handling models. SLRE has the best physics IMHO. DR is also great although a bit too easy to slide and correct. WRC 6 is a huge improvement over the pathetic 5 and the handling model is competent, intuitive and believable although it does have quite a bit of simcade in it. What I mean is, with those three titles, you only need a couple minutes to adapt to each game's quirks because the underlying handling models are similar. You don't have to learn how to drive again when swapping between them.

The last couple evenings I have spent several hours with D4 trophy hunting on the PS4 Pro and could feel myself starting to adapt. The problem is I feel I am adapting to bad habits. I don't want to have to re-learn how to drive a virtual rally car for one single game, especially since I still play lots of SLRE and WRC 6 and once a week I jump into DR for my league events.

I am not a very fast guy, about top 25% on gravel and top 10% on asphalt, but here are some of my runs in SLRE, WRC 6 and D4 for comparison. The SLRE and WRC 6 replays just look more believable to me (handling-wise, not graphics-wise LOL). I am not a professional racer but have been playing racing games since the late nineties. I have done a lot of karting and when I had a 2000 Impreza I put 60,000km on it in South America. Needless to say I never pushed it to the limit but throughout Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Bolivia I had plenty of opportunities to do some light-hearted rally-style turns on a variety of loose surfaces. And as a motorsports freak in general, I think most of us on this board can feel when physics are right or if there is something off, unlike Headlong who insists that if you are not Sébastien Loeb you are unqualified to critique a rally game.

https://youtu.be/sv0YPoJvT44

https://youtu.be/EVy7l7jh-4I

https://youtu.be/YvESHKHqgQA

I am Simulation with no assists and Logitech G29 just for the record. If anyone sees any fundamental flaws in my driving style (besides being afraid to be on the limit LOL) that could be preventing me from getting a better experience from D4 I'm all ears.
I will make a vid. In the next few hours. Will add sum driving in as well. I feel like just as you said have been rage quitting because it just doesnt feel natural i would agree. First run i did in 95 Subaru i went straight off into a tree after 3 corners. Lets say spent the next 3 hours tuning that car. Now it handles like a dream i can go flatout through pretty much every 4 corner in mich. With it now. Your driving seems very composed id agree you are being a bit timid but i will guess this comes from not having confidence with what the car will do next. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I spent a lot of time playing with car setups. I made few cars behave closest to what they should (Hyundai R5, Subaru NR4 and Focus 2007 WRC are my favorites). Still if you are about online competition it is better to leave the car the way they are default, or to make them... more understeer. Otherwise you WILL be slower.
I personally would sacrifice online for a solid SP, but atm SP feels a little bit unimmersive. Career was amazing, but it is short, and also for 90 % of rallies AI is too easy, and then it gets stage times impossible to match without memorizing stages. So we would be left to Your Stage events made by ourselves. Answer yourself if you want to play it.

MP Clubs that are incoming would be so amazing to do, but again- it is impossible to win by forcing D4 to act as a sim- you will loose too much time compared to more efficient drivers who will take advantage of a grip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here is a vid. of what i have done it is still somewhat a work in progress. I do think it is a good starting point that you can work from. Hope it helps at least somewhat. RWD def. works but needs some other tuning to settle rear. and the lancer evo VI is not an easy egg to crack.

https://youtu.be/iooysL2cGNw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mystx24 said:
Here is a vid. of what i have done it is still somewhat a work in progress. I do think it is a good starting point that you can work from. Hope it helps at least somewhat. RWD def. works but needs some other tuning to settle rear. and the lancer evo VI is not an easy egg to crack.

https://youtu.be/iooysL2cGNw
R5's don't have so much of a problem though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KevM said:
Mystx24 said:
Here is a vid. of what i have done it is still somewhat a work in progress. I do think it is a good starting point that you can work from. Hope it helps at least somewhat. RWD def. works but needs some other tuning to settle rear. and the lancer evo VI is not an easy egg to crack.

https://youtu.be/iooysL2cGNw
R5's don't have so much of a problem though...
i do realize this how ever this does help with other cars i am still testing currently with lancer evo VI. also used it with opel kadett it worked does need some adjusting. and i also realize something still does not feel right with the way the car slides. just dont know what

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dampers are probably the single most important aspect of tuning for handling here, yet they're the most obscurely explained and difficult to adjust parts of your setup. Think of bump as controlling the motion of the wheels (unsprung mass), and rebound as controlling the motion of the chassis (sprung mass).

If rebound is set too low (in theory) the chassis will bounce on return (bad), too high and it'll take too long too return (also generally bad, but may help unsettle the rear-end if tighter than the front, which could be desirable). It's pretty normal to have bump/compression set at around half the rate of rebound (and that's in track cars who don't have to eat  nearly as many bumps, common sense suggests rally tunes trend towards an even greater disparity), but there are so many factors that influence optimal settings, including driving style.

As a rule of thumb I start by setting front bump to -2; front rebound to +1; rear bump to -1; and rear rebound to +2. Then adjust according to how the car feels, but this general ratio I'll try to retain whether I'm softening or stiffening the car. The idea behind the softer front and stiffer back is to encourage a bit of general oversteer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Onylra said:
Dampers are probably the single most important aspect of tuning for handling here, yet they're the most obscurely explained and difficult to adjust parts of your setup. Think of bump as controlling the motion of the wheels (unsprung mass), and rebound as controlling the motion of the chassis (sprung mass).

If rebound is set too low (in theory) the chassis will bounce on return (bad), too high and it'll take too long too return (also generally bad, but may help unsettle the rear-end if tighter than the front, which could be desirable). It's pretty normal to have bump/compression set at around half the rate of rebound (and that's in track cars who don't have to eat  nearly as many bumps, common sense suggests rally tunes trend towards an even greater disparity), but there are so many factors that influence optimal settings, including driving style.

As a rule of thumb I start by setting front bump to -2; front rebound to +1; rear bump to -1; and rear rebound to +2. Then adjust according to how the car feels, but this general ratio I'll try to retain whether I'm softening or stiffening the car. The idea behind the softer front and stiffer back is to encourage a bit of general oversteer.
You make very good points and are very right about the dampening for handling. changing pistons in my shocks on my SC5M SCT was always a huge change to its handling characateristics and how well it absorbed impacts. i did go very far with the setup i suggested to really show how much the car can change even in this game. Very good points onylra.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Onylra said:
 The idea behind the softer front and stiffer back is to encourage a bit of general oversteer.
Allot of cars ingame have a natural stiffer front to rear. So youre mostly limited in how soft vs hard you can go over the rear. This was something i was trying to do since i started playing Dirt 4. My early setups ingame mostly had stiffer rear suspension with maxed out rear rebound or dampers maxed out like this.

Biggest issue i was finding was traction felt like it would switch on mid corner. Didnt feel like there was any torque or traction at all until the turbo kicks to max.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Extreme setups only mask the underlying issue in the physics we are having.  I get people want to enjoy the game they thought they were going to get, and as it was marketed to us as "Dirt Rally but better with infinite stages", but it only helps a little bit.  There is something fundamentally wrong here, a month since release and almost zero response to the massive outcry from the community between here/Reddit/Steam.  More people are playing DR 1 month after release of D4, that is a massive red flag.  The road book today was so minimal, sidestepping all the issues mine has well not even made one. 

The point is, IMO, the rally physics need work.  It feels good at some times, but then feels like traction and stability control are turned up to 10.  It's not fun or realistic to drive with a wheel.  I can't force myself to do it anymore.  If we had some kind of response from Codies I wouldn't be so up at arms about the issues with D4, but we get nothing from them.  It was marketed and hyped up as a rally simulation with nearly limitless stages, but one that could cater to D1-3 fans - cool!  Best of both worlds, but it isn't.  Simulation physics are dulled down immensely, and Your Stage needs some work to make it less repetitive.

Maybe I just got too into the hype train, but I can't help feel disappointed in a big way.  Patches to the physics and additions to Your Stage could go a huge way in turning this around, but the silence from CM a month after release really sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
griev0r said:
Extreme setups only mask the underlying issue in the physics we are having.  I get people want to enjoy the game they thought they were going to get, and as it was marketed to us as "Dirt Rally but better with infinite stages", but it only helps a little bit.  There is something fundamentally wrong here, a month since release and almost zero response to the massive outcry from the community between here/Reddit/Steam.  More people are playing DR 1 month after release of D4, that is a massive red flag.  The road book today was so minimal, sidestepping all the issues mine has well not even made one. 

The point is, IMO, the rally physics need work.  It feels good at some times, but then feels like traction and stability control are turned up to 10.  It's not fun or realistic to drive with a wheel.  I can't force myself to do it anymore.  If we had some kind of response from Codies I wouldn't be so up at arms about the issues with D4, but we get nothing from them.  It was marketed and hyped up as a rally simulation with nearly limitless stages, but one that could cater to D1-3 fans - cool!  Best of both worlds, but it isn't.  Simulation physics are dulled down immensely, and Your Stage needs some work to make it less repetitive.

Maybe I just got too into the hype train, but I can't help feel disappointed in a big way.  Patches to the physics and additions to Your Stage could go a huge way in turning this around, but the silence from CM a month after release really sucks.
you are very correct and i am my self slowing falling to this same conclusion. i kind of like the handling but overall there is something fundametally wrong i agree for sure. i went back and booted up RBR the other day and it really did feel amazing. might not be the most realistic but it sure is fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mystx24 said:
 i did go very far with the setup i suggested to really show how much the car can change even in this game.
Yeah. It matters a lot. If you do nothing but soften your slow bump and lengthen first gear the car will be transformed. Often the diff defaults seem almost completely backwards to me, the Escort comes to mind.

On top of it all is the general difficulty in finding a setup which will satisfy under all possible circumstances. It's one thing to achieve a perfect brake bias on the flat, but as soon as you come to a steep hill it all goes to pot. This makes you feel bad - you don't want to lay on the brakes too heavily downhill because the rear locks too easily and spins nearly impossible to correct, so you slow it down. It all comes back to the basic rallying wisdom: you tune primarily to make the driver feel good, confident enough to push hard in all situations.

I've seen people praising the feel in Dirtfish, but there it's completely flat, no bumps, no pitching - of course it feels good there and bad elsewhere. Dealing with the crap is just part of the sport (though I do kind of feel things may be just a bit too much of a rollercoaster on the rough roads). Here's something I was reading a little while ago:

https://www.worldrallyblog.com/2017/05/02/wrc-news/theres-something-wrong-citroens-dampers/

I honestly think I got bigger and better slides in the Escort with an understeery setup because I was less concerned about spinning the rear when I actually got it sideways, so I just chucked it in as hard and fast as I could. (I'll admit it has its idiosyncrasies, but it's definitely slideable - IMO it's too underpowered and imbalanced to expect too much in the way of throttle oversteer, though it's definitely there - the M3 rocked my socks, to be honest. I actually like the RWDs in this game overall... please don't hurt me!)

One stage can contain steep ups and downs, tight corners and fast straights, it can start raining, or the surface can change. I'm thinking a lot about setup, tinkering and theorizing - the effects of weight are much more influential than any other rally game I've played, and I'm finding it demands a lot more attention in setup. This is good, quirks aside (I hate the whole staff thing, like not being able to use a saved setup because your mechanic is having a tantrum).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mystx24 said:
griev0r said:
Extreme setups only mask the underlying issue in the physics we are having.  I get people want to enjoy the game they thought they were going to get, and as it was marketed to us as "Dirt Rally but better with infinite stages", but it only helps a little bit.  There is something fundamentally wrong here, a month since release and almost zero response to the massive outcry from the community between here/Reddit/Steam.  More people are playing DR 1 month after release of D4, that is a massive red flag.  The road book today was so minimal, sidestepping all the issues mine has well not even made one. 

The point is, IMO, the rally physics need work.  It feels good at some times, but then feels like traction and stability control are turned up to 10.  It's not fun or realistic to drive with a wheel.  I can't force myself to do it anymore.  If we had some kind of response from Codies I wouldn't be so up at arms about the issues with D4, but we get nothing from them.  It was marketed and hyped up as a rally simulation with nearly limitless stages, but one that could cater to D1-3 fans - cool!  Best of both worlds, but it isn't.  Simulation physics are dulled down immensely, and Your Stage needs some work to make it less repetitive.

Maybe I just got too into the hype train, but I can't help feel disappointed in a big way.  Patches to the physics and additions to Your Stage could go a huge way in turning this around, but the silence from CM a month after release really sucks.
you are very correct and i am my self slowing falling to this same conclusion. i kind of like the handling but overall there is something fundametally wrong i agree for sure. i went back and booted up RBR the other day and it really did feel amazing. might not be the most realistic but it sure is fun.
I understand completely, RBR just feels 'right'.  After a good run you feel accomplished and you watch the replay and feel holy shit that looks realistic as hell!  Maybe not so much not tarmac, but on gravel very much yes.  When you're driving it feels fluid and realistic, but punishing at the same time.  I don't get any of that from D4, but DR came close at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mystx24 said:
hawku0 said
I have tested with different ARB, spring and bump/rebound settings, but i can't get rid of that problem.

Grass isn't that slippery in Dirt 4. You can easily climb a 45 degree hill with an AWD car when you go off the road in Wales.
That snap oversteer doesn't happen when there is no bump in between the road and the grass.
Speaking of springs and bumps, I was watching the latest footage from Poland WRC. It is always amazing to see the suspension at work. It makes the car look like it floates or hovers steadily above ground, while the suspension absorbs all and every bumps and banks.

https://youtu.be/2eYJQSKHGVA

I tried to reproduce the i20 R5 to look and feel like in those videos (Fitzroy), but I am not able to get there. It looks like the suspension in D4 is often unable to cope with all the bumps and the tyres are not really constantly in contact with the surface as in those videos. Is anyone able to achieve such great suspension work?


Try my setup its super plush this game requires it. The roads are so rough. It is do able i am no longer being pulled by the off main road driving. Super smooth and fast now. 

Ps: i can make a vid if needed once home from work. I want people to like this game it has been a real tuning experience so far. My tuning experience prior to this is tuning 10th scale short course trucks. Had to learn how to adjust to be fast

Before D4 I was easily jumping between DiRT Rally, Loeb Rally EVO and WRC 6 as all three of those titles have something in common: intuitive handling models. SLRE has the best physics IMHO. DR is also great although a bit too easy to slide and correct. 
I think Sebastien Loeb Rally Evo and Dirt 4 have very similar physics except Dirt 4 has better feeling for the grip of the car. In Loeb a Evo it often feels like the car isn't on the road and floats. But I agree it has very good physics. 

Dirt Rally I think is nothing like Dirt4 or Loeb Rally Evo. I think it's the least realistic of the three. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know it's not unrealistic that the wheels lift off the ground, but it's just seems so exagerated in D4. All 4 wheels are basically never on the ground at the same time unless you are at Dirtfish.

Is there something strange in the suspension modeling or are the stages roughness/camber all to blame?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Simpler answer - its the absolutely batshit contour of the roads. No road I have seen in real life has the exaggerated camber, camber switching or bumps that dirt 4 has. Wales and Sweden are the worst for this. If they scaled the road up like 5 times then the roads might feel remotely sane - although wide like a highway.

I want to see a patch with note: bulldozers have been commissioned to flatten every stage down 50%. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMHO this thread is not needed anymore. We gave Codies more than enough, after reading last roadbook I wish they could give us back more than broad statements that we got. People here spent time and effort to formulate feedback, and there is ZERO response. We are left on our own. 

They must know what's wrong with physics by now. If they are willing to take a challenge to fix it or not , it's up to them. But this is the time a future of Dirt is being determined in my opinion. D4 is no fun after you realize it's issues. 
You cannot force a game pad focused game to be a sim in the end. Compromises had to be made, and we suffered. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think this discussion about the suspension and how the cars get unsettled sounds quite convincing. Some good points have been made by all of you. Looking at real footage compared to the replays of Dirt4, real cars seem to drive a bit smoother through the stages indeed imo. I would like to add to this, that there are also many more forces and factors to consider, that might have an 'impact' on the suspension behaviour. Like the already mentioned surface smoothness, other things that come to my mind are: The mass of the tires and/or the moving mechanical parts, aero downforce behaviour, maybe tire-pressure and the amount and responsiveness of weight-transfer/momentum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Onylra said:
Dampers are probably the single most important aspect of tuning for handling here, yet they're the most obscurely explained and difficult to adjust parts of your setup. Think of bump as controlling the motion of the wheels (unsprung mass), and rebound as controlling the motion of the chassis (sprung mass).

If rebound is set too low (in theory) the chassis will bounce on return (bad), too high and it'll take too long too return (also generally bad, but may help unsettle the rear-end if tighter than the front, which could be desirable). It's pretty normal to have bump/compression set at around half the rate of rebound (and that's in track cars who don't have to eat  nearly as many bumps, common sense suggests rally tunes trend towards an even greater disparity), but there are so many factors that influence optimal settings, including driving style.

As a rule of thumb I start by setting front bump to -2; front rebound to +1; rear bump to -1; and rear rebound to +2. Then adjust according to how the car feels, but this general ratio I'll try to retain whether I'm softening or stiffening the car. The idea behind the softer front and stiffer back is to encourage a bit of general oversteer.
Thank you, it actually works.
I managed to get a decent setup for the Fiesta R5. In case anyone is interested.
Can you elaborate about the zone division setting? I read the text, but I don't really know what to do with it.

Edit
Oh, and I forgot to mention that I use 2 spare tyres. It really makes a difference.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
^ While i appreciate this elaborate setup in damper tuning,the fact is they should have included tire choices as that would have a lot bigger effect on handling in a rally car 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Took the GC Impreza on daily/weekly whatever that was and my gosh it feels horrible.Definitely couldnt get it to drive like McRae used to :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SamRWD said:
IMHO this thread is not needed anymore. We gave Codies more than enough, after reading last roadbook I wish they could give us back more than broad statements that we got. People here spent time and effort to formulate feedback, and there is ZERO response. We are left on our own. 

They must know what's wrong with physics by now. If they are willing to take a challenge to fix it or not , it's up to them. But this is the time a future of Dirt is being determined in my opinion. D4 is no fun after you realize it's issues. 
You cannot force a game pad focused game to be a sim in the end. Compromises had to be made, and we suffered. 

I prefer seeing a roadblock like that than starting to see a topic about it & nothing is done. I suppose the next one determine if they are working on it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qmass said:
Simpler answer - its the absolutely batshit contour of the roads. No road I have seen in real life has the exaggerated camber, camber switching or bumps that dirt 4 has. Wales and Sweden are the worst for this. If they scaled the road up like 5 times then the roads might feel remotely sane - although wide like a highway.

I want to see a patch with note: bulldozers have been commissioned to flatten every stage down 50%. 
I managed to create a nice mid-length 6 km go-to stage in Fitzroy for testing purposes. It has 3 straights and a nice technical midsection.
But it also has these 3-4 left uphill overcrest tightens turns that I never managed to get right. Either I turn in too early and crash into the fence of death. Or I get carried drifting into the outside slope. And the car always gets loose before the actual crest, which I find irritating. The uphill compression before the crast should give me more traction, not less.
So I was watching the replay and something caught my attention. The trail of smoke got interrupted about 5-7 meters before the actual crest. And I think I know why. There is a bump (quite sharp I think), more like a mini crest before the actual crest. If you are fast enough, the car will go airborne and loose all contact for a few meters. It is barely visible, but the interrupted smoke trail is a good indicator.
I don't know if this "bump" is intendet, but things like this can add to some weird moments imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BTW, anyone dare trying the ACAT mod/trainer to see if
- Rally cars drive better on rallycross tracks?
- RX cars drive as good on stages as on RX tracks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SamRWD said:
IMHO this thread is not needed anymore. We gave Codies more than enough, after reading last roadbook I wish they could give us back more than broad statements that we got. People here spent time and effort to formulate feedback, and there is ZERO response. We are left on our own. 

They must know what's wrong with physics by now. If they are willing to take a challenge to fix it or not , it's up to them. But this is the time a future of Dirt is being determined in my opinion. D4 is no fun after you realize it's issues. 
You cannot force a game pad focused game to be a sim in the end. Compromises had to be made, and we suffered. 
Feedback would be nice, don't get me wrong, but consider this: Codemasters now spend years developing the physics behind rallying in cooperation with real drivers and I guess considering data about as many things as they could get. Many things, that have been discussed here and will be discussed, may sound right to us, but may just be completely wrong because firstly, we don't know exactly how changes in certain areas play out and interfere with other things and secondly, these ideas may just don't represent real car behaviour. All we can provide them with are considerations, ideas and feelings, not solutions. I fully believe them, when they say that they look at our feedback and take our ideas very seriously, because they already did this with Dirt Rally, which was in an Early Access phase by the way, that was designed for feedback exchange. Even if they know the cause (if there is something that doesn't match their data), maybe changing it would lead to other, more severe problems that have to be tackled subsequently. So I don't expect them to talk about it until they managed to improve it (if possible/reasonable), simple as that. Other than that, the best thing we can do, is to continue the discussion as long as there are things to add. This doesn't just helps for Dirt4, but also for things to come. In the end, developing a fully realistic rally simulation is a highly complex task and really difficult. And Dirt4 imo, already is the most advanced one in this aspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×