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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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gheeD said:
Also, tyres.

Body is 29 characters too short.
Also all other parts that differ a stock TME against a Grp A Lancer.

And the 2001 Impreza. I dislike it in DR and I dislike it now. Very strange to drive. Especially on tarmac.

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Idk people saying that it is all in setup, but what I see is lack of inertia of the vehicles. Especially while comparing to that video of EVO, in game the car needs to be forced very much.

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Been playing a lot more with setups now and I gotta say you can fix A LOT of problems with it. Like you don't even have to turn a setting all the way.
Was even able to untangle the horrible NR4 Mitsubishi to become a fun car on gravel.

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To be honest, I haven't driven a lot landrush, but the physics there is kind of what I'm looking for in the rallymode as well.. Slide and use countersteer to set the car up for the next corner and so on. Just have a look at the turn-in @55seconds here. The car slides to the corner, and then all the way through it. Also when braking on gravel the WRC drivers have time to throw the car from side to side 1-3 times before reaching the turn to set the car up (1-2 or hairpin) because it actually takes time to slow down 1200kg from 180 km/h to 40 km/h on gravel. I've tried stiff ARB rear on the fiesta R5 with positive toe in the rear but the rear still feels like a sledgehammer only searching for grip.


https://youtu.be/8Bu_1UOHRvM?t=57s

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I'm all for improving physics, but only towards realism. I don't know if and how CM is supposed to make sense from users' opinions who don't have real world experience. It's easy to fall into the easier to drive/less sliding= less realistic and harder to drive/less grip= more realistic viewpoint when it's not necessarily true.

When comparing to the real world: 1. In real world, they have different tire compounds to choose from, while in D4 it's probably only one. 2. In real world, they have to do multiple stages (each of which longer than in D4) on a single set of tires that suffer degradation and affects handling, while in D4 there probably isn't any. 3. Each driver will have different setups. It makes it harder to compare realism when simply comparing to a video because you don't know the other variables.

Also, some talked about Sweden. If you go watch the WRC event in Sweden of this year (which you can do online on redbull tv), they spoke about how there is so much grip thanks to studded tires (and the cars), comparing grip level to asphalt. So at least for the modern cars, handling in D4 might be closer to reality that you might assume.

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So after messing with setups over the weekend I got the 2001 Impreza to turn into a power sliding machine. I'm gonna upload at least one or two videos tonight of just how loose the rear can get. Still requires a bit of setup in the corner but otherwise feels great. Some cars definitely need more work than others as I still can't get the 95 Subaru to do anything but understeer right now. Getting a good setup for that car is going to be my goal tonight.

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I wonder has anybody actually timed the amount of time on any given stage the throttle is wide open? I'll just hazard a guess now and say it's somewhere between 95-98%. If that isn't all the evidence you need then whatever...
The tracks stink to high heaven! EVERY SINGLE STAGE FEELS LIKE THE SAME!!

It is just terrible... Full throttle, down gear flick left / right, FULL THROTTLE.............. Rinse and repeat. It's a bad joke and I've had enough of it already!

DiRT 4 say hello eBay!

I guess if your a 12 year old kid and want to feel like a pro rally driver this is the game for you!

DiRT 4 is worse that showdown was! Least that was kinda fun and didn't pretend to be anything other than it is.

Heads should roll at codemasters for this. I feel I've wasted 10-12 hours of my life trying to like it. I tried, I did. It just stinks. Sega rally was better!

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RT87 said:
I'm all for improving physics, but only towards realism. I don't know if and how CM is supposed to make sense from users' opinions who don't have real world experience. It's easy to fall into the easier to drive/less sliding= less realistic and harder to drive/less grip= more realistic viewpoint when it's not necessarily true.

When comparing to the real world: 1. In real world, they have different tire compounds to choose from, while in D4 it's probably only one. 2. In real world, they have to do multiple stages (each of which longer than in D4) on a single set of tires that suffer degradation and affects handling, while in D4 there probably isn't any. 3. Each driver will have different setups. It makes it harder to compare realism when simply comparing to a video because you don't know the other variables.

Also, some talked about Sweden. If you go watch the WRC event in Sweden of this year (which you can do online on redbull tv), they spoke about how there is so much grip thanks to studded tires (and the cars), comparing grip level to asphalt. So at least for the modern cars, handling in D4 might be closer to reality that you might assume.
I too am all for accuracy and realism. Sliding and difficulty should also reflect that.

I am only a new rally fan, so I did not even watch all the Group B and Group A or RWD era cars. I watch modern cars. I also watched all the episodes for Sweden's WRC event on Redbull TV this year. And unfortunately I can't see the behaviour of the cars in D4 as fully accurate yet, and definitely not in Sweden.

The banks in Sweden are also nerfed I think compared to Dirt Rally (and to reality), where they would suck you in. This happened to Sebastien Ogier on the first corner of a stage this year as well, at very low speed too.

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chukonu said:
Been playing a lot more with setups now and I gotta say you can fix A LOT of problems with it. Like you don't even have to turn a setting all the way.
Was even able to untangle the horrible NR4 Mitsubishi to become a fun car on gravel.
Assuming the problem lays in setups (insetad of physics), maybe we should consider sharing our default setups with real teams. I believe they would profit from such stable, non-sliding cars. Don't you think? ;)

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For some reason as a long time rally fan and a guy who have seen rally cars live so much, my head hurts while reading this thread. But I truly appreciate the effort some people are doing to make D4 worth a buy. 

All I say is Thierry Neuville's words after a stage couple of rallies ago, "I wasn't sideways enough!" 

Keep up the good work guys.

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Scyy said:
So after messing with setups over the weekend I got the 2001 Impreza to turn into a power sliding machine. I'm gonna upload at least one or two videos tonight of just how loose the rear can get. Still requires a bit of setup in the corner but otherwise feels great. Some cars definitely need more work than others as I still can't get the 95 Subaru to do anything but understeer right now. Getting a good setup for that car is going to be my goal tonight.
could you make sure to share it.wanna try this sliding subaru :)

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OK, so I played with car setups a bit more.
I already mentioned how I think Subaru STi NR4 is the most realistic when it comes to handling (IMHO), now I managed to set it up so it feels REALLY nice on Sweden. Low speed corners can be entered with a weight balance and you can get through with powerslide. Really, really nice. Way above what I experienced so far. Feel free to try it out! The only complain is car power- it is supposed to be underpowered compared to higher class cars, but it struggles even on taking off the stage :( Here is setup, feel free to try it out, and let me know what you think.


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I think it's fair to say that all Simulation players want realism - that should be considered a given. There is not much that is clearly defined reference for how to do that compared to Road Racing with massive amounts of data to draw from. As good as feedback from Pro Rally Drivers may be - having expertise in one world (Real / Virtual) does not automatically equate to having expertise in the other. In the end, two highly experienced and successful RL race drivers may totally disagree on what is most realistic in Simulation, and that's without even getting into FFB, hardware, tuning etc.

It's really about joining forces and coming together to create some acceptable level of realism, immersion, fun, etc.  It happens with race-sim's like Assetto Corsa, rFactor1/2, iRacing, and more but, it happens over time and evolves slowly with ongoing development. Sure, there are sub groups within the Sim genre that favor one title over the other but, there is general agreement that Sim"X" is good and feels right. If the data supports that, all the better. If some RL drivers call it pure rubbish - oh well, we'll still enjoy it.

Again, I'll reference Pcars1 - where Ben Collins (former Stig) effectively said that the title was the most realistic simulation and best he'd ever driven and now, SMS is developing Pcars2 with more advanced physics after having stated that the PC1 tire model was flawed and needed to be re-designed. Marketing talk aside, the Sim community didn't need to be told that the tire model was flawed; we knew it when we drove the cars in PC1 - not because we're made up of RL Pro-race drivers but, because we have experience with multiple other quality Sim's and basic understanding of how cars handle.

Granted, Dirt is Different than tarmac, as is snow, ice, mud, dry / wet, whatever but, physics are physics and there is a sweet spot where RL / Simulation / video reference / data all coincide to create Virtual Racing. That's where we want to get to.

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BTW those extreme setups we come up with in order to make cars loose rear will make us really struggle in MP because other drivers will be driving on wet bumpy tarmac, and we will be driving on gravel LOL

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SamRWD said:
BTW those extreme setups we come up with in order to make cars loose rear will make us really struggle in MP because other drivers will be driving on wet bumpy tarmac, and we will be driving on gravel LOL
I don't actually know if that's correct, from my little bit of playing around (with RWD cars, since they're my favorite) getting really effective slides can be faster than the default setups though the issue is that with the lack of throttle-on oversteer at the present you can only really get away with such a thing on fairly fast corners. If you get into a technical section where you'd expect a car to be able to break traction relatively easily, you end up either having to rely on the handbrake or accept that you're going to be taking corners in a very basic manner as you would with the default setup.
Since Codies have mentioned wanting to fix rear end grip, I'd imagine we'll see this being less of an issue in the future but at the very least for now driving a very aggressive setup can be just as effective if not more than the default, safe ones albeit still not perfectly accurate to reality nor particularly easy to handle overall.

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RT87 said:
I'm all for improving physics, but only towards realism. I don't know if and how CM is supposed to make sense from users' opinions who don't have real world experience. It's easy to fall into the easier to drive/less sliding= less realistic and harder to drive/less grip= more realistic viewpoint when it's not necessarily true.

When comparing to the real world: 1. In real world, they have different tire compounds to choose from, while in D4 it's probably only one. 2. In real world, they have to do multiple stages (each of which longer than in D4) on a single set of tires that suffer degradation and affects handling, while in D4 there probably isn't any. 3. Each driver will have different setups. It makes it harder to compare realism when simply comparing to a video because you don't know the other variables.

Also, some talked about Sweden. If you go watch the WRC event in Sweden of this year (which you can do online on redbull tv), they spoke about how there is so much grip thanks to studded tires (and the cars), comparing grip level to asphalt. So at least for the modern cars, handling in D4 might be closer to reality that you might assume.
So let me ask you back- how do you know if  "harder to drive/less grip=/= more realistic"? You have to use data you have access to to decide. If cars could be driven the way they do in D4 everyone in the world would be driving like this (not to mention less tyre wear you were talking about). Yet dobody does. Cars do slide a lot more in RL. You can watch any RL onboard to realise that. I have yet to see cars being able to go fast on loose surface without having to loose grip in order to go through fast. If they could go the same speed without sliding, they would. If they could go the same speed with LESS slide, they would. But they don't. They can't.
Should CM rely only on RL drivers? Sure, they did great job in RX, but why is rally so off? Apparently they didn't get to get as much input from them as they'd need to make it realistic. Also we were actually asked to give feedback.
You are right about Sweden- studded tyres provide amazing grip given the surface. Is it the same as tarmac? Obviously not, but it is more than most other non snow rallies indeed. But thise tyres don't work so well when there is next to no snow (we have such gravel parts in Sweden in D4). That's the reason why drivers were debating whenever that particular year the rally should even take place, it was really dangerous, stages were canceled etc.

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the thing is what we need to do is try and weed out cars that don't perform well or right and not say all are bad or something is totally wrong. for eg some cars are amazing. i just drove the renault alpine on spain and that is perfect.its absolutely amazing.


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Vannipo said:
SamRWD said:
OK, what can we do to provide constructive feedback? We have no insight into how physics in D4 work, we don't know...
... result from such evaluation the closest to perfection you are to begin with. Please watch this onboard:
https://youtu.be/1sAbQ5wRr0o
Here, you have done enough to notice how off the physics are ATM. Now how comes no one from Codemasters noticed the problem? I just don't understand, the only explanation is that they are not really trying to make a proper sim, and use a Simulation option to lure sim fans. Seriously I don't get it, I wish I was wrong, but it makes no sence...
My first thought, as I watched the real reference:

"Wow, ok, so much grip in real life? Looks very similar to D4 in Wales for me right now. If u drive that fast..."

Outch, don't beat me, pls...
but... I don't see much difference... and I don't see the car sliding that much like in Dirt Rally.
Well, you could just watch one of first corners at 0:33 where you can see braking and getting though the corner. I challenge you to make Focus WRC 2001 behave like that. I would love to see such onboard!
EDIT: video link gone when quoting, here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAbQ5wRr0o

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RT87 said:
I'm all for improving physics, but only towards realism. I don't know if and how CM is supposed to make sense from users' opinions who don't have real world experience. It's easy to fall into the easier to drive/less sliding= less realistic and harder to drive/less grip= more realistic viewpoint when it's not necessarily true.

When comparing to the real world: 1. In real world, they have different tire compounds to choose from, while in D4 it's probably only one. 2. In real world, they have to do multiple stages (each of which longer than in D4) on a single set of tires that suffer degradation and affects handling, while in D4 there probably isn't any. 3. Each driver will have different setups. It makes it harder to compare realism when simply comparing to a video because you don't know the other variables.

Also, some talked about Sweden. If you go watch the WRC event in Sweden of this year (which you can do online on redbull tv), they spoke about how there is so much grip thanks to studded tires (and the cars), comparing grip level to asphalt. So at least for the modern cars, handling in D4 might be closer to reality that you might assume.
One more reasonable person. Guys who pressed disagree - don't bother them, long time RBR physics fans like it's a mecca of realism. 

SamRWD said:
BTW those extreme setups we come up with in order to make cars loose rear will make us really struggle in MP because other drivers will be driving on wet bumpy tarmac, and we will be driving on gravel LOL
I'm wiping out 75% of players with my setups on gravel in ProTour. Hm?



SamRWD said:
Vannipo said:
SamRWD said:
OK, what can we do to provide constructive feedback? We have no insight into how physics in D4 work, we don't know...
... result from such evaluation the closest to perfection you are to begin with. Please watch this onboard:
https://youtu.be/1sAbQ5wRr0o
Here, you have done enough to notice how off the physics are ATM. Now how comes no one from Codemasters noticed the problem? I just don't understand, the only explanation is that they are not really trying to make a proper sim, and use a Simulation option to lure sim fans. Seriously I don't get it, I wish I was wrong, but it makes no sence...
My first thought, as I watched the real reference:

"Wow, ok, so much grip in real life? Looks very similar to D4 in Wales for me right now. If u drive that fast..."

Outch, don't beat me, pls...
but... I don't see much difference... and I don't see the car sliding that much like in Dirt Rally.
Well, you could just watch one of first corners at 0:33 where you can see braking and getting though the corner. I challenge you to make Focus WRC 2001 behave like that. I would love to see such onboard!
EDIT: video link gone when quoting, here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAbQ5wRr0o
Challenge accepted, expect video tommorow 5PM-7PM GMT+2. 




P.S. No one thinks everything 100% on point so I don't know why are you're so agressive. Everyone in this thread wants to make the game better.

Right know we're going to completely subjective discussion, with videos in lowest quality and without any raw data.  This thread was supposed to be a constructive feedback.

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@versedi 
Can't wait, if you could also share your car setup, that'd be nice!
As for that remark about us working to loose rear tyres grip vs default setups- it was supposed to be more of a joke, but if that 25% will remain unbeatable unless you use defaultish setup there is a problem.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see that RBR comment- compared to DR and D4 obviously physics wise RBR with NGP is a Mecca of realism. RSRBR is on pair with Dirt. Vanilla RBR is just more realistic.

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versedi said:
Git gud and learn how to tweak.                    
Man, that hurts :D
You always have gamer handling :D  


SamRWD said:
@versedi 
Can't wait, if you could also share your car setup, that'd be nice!
As for that remark about us working to loose rear tyres grip vs default setups- it was supposed to be more of a joke, but if that 25% will remain unbeatable unless you use defaultish setup there is a problem.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see that RBR comment- compared to DR and D4 obviously physics wise RBR with NGP is a Mecca of realism. RSRBR is on pair with Dirt. Vanilla RBR is just more realistic.
I've compared my times and I'm always faster on gravel with a bit of oversteer but not as much as in DR. The controllable flow over the bumps and tighter curves is satisfying for me. 

Though that don't mean everything is all right. Most of my feedback can be concluded from my two wall posts in this thread. 

/E: Though I have one more thing on my mind that I'm going analyse further before bringing up. 

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If you did a comparison, I believe you. That's a great relief actually, because I was affraid I am putting myself on disadvantage and I was actually ready to stick to SP if needed.

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in dirt rally i had the focus set up to do similar the only thing was lacking was the weight .what i loved is sweeping into bends/hairpins and drifting in or taking them as you see.go try the focus in dirt 4 you dont get the movement on the gravel which you need to go in early like how colins driving it.a little flick just before corner and round you go.that needs to be adjusted.


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