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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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dgeesi0 said:
in dirt rally i had the focus set up to do similar the only thing was lacking was the weight .what i loved is sweeping into bends/hairpins and drifting in or taking them as you see.go try the focus in dirt 4 you dont get the movement on the gravel which you need to go in early like how colins driving it.a little flick just before corner and round you go.that needs to be adjusted.


I didn't drive the Focus yet so I hope I won't burn myself in my own words :D 

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@versedi 
No pressure. Take your time, or pick different AWD car entirely (I would appreciate if it was one of cars we have access to onboards from- IE Focus 2007, or anything).

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SamRWD said:
@versedi 
No pressure. Take your time, or pick different AWD car entirely (I would appreciate if it was one of cars we have access to onboards from- IE Focus 2007, or anything).
If the "FOKA" 01 isn't feeling like Scoobie 01 then there won't be any problem :) 

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versedi said:
dgeesi0 said:
we have had subaru cars in our family since 1980s ;) as the previous guy said go try do them with the scooby.you shouldnt need to use a handbrake to start them off.
I've performed 3 tests on Dirt Fish area (uploading to YT right now). 
I've tried:
- Subaru Impreza 2001
- Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 6
- Mitsubishi Space Star

From these three, Space Star is easiest, it's possible even on default setup and with tweaks, these are real doughnuts.
In Lancer you're able to set Rear LSD Preload so it's really easy too, in Scoobie you don't. 

There is some weird behaviour going on with Scoobie. I think you can see that on TT - look at G ball and compare it to the other two. It's like it wants to snap and go sideways but something is holding it.

Could that be just because of the different differential? I'm going to test a few other cars as well but not today.

THE SETUPS ARE MAKING HUGE DIFFERENCE. In my opinion, they're changing more than it was in DR.

Setups: Full drift.


Scoobie: 

https://youtu.be/U9Ca1mLgu8I


Space Star:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-HAIQ7Jj2k&feature=youtu.be
Lancer:

https://youtu.be/fEh1v_qSB74
I tried the same and, as you can see from the Lancer or Subaru, there is 'something' trying to brake unnaturally the wheels as soon as the side slip angle increases (engine rpm are not able to climb anymore). The same happens in other situations and it's the reason why is alost impossible to powerslide.
Another thing driving me crazy is the absurd behaviour of the virtual steering wheel. No matter the linearity setting I use it seems that my inputs are always modified in some way (amplified or reduced depending on the rotational speed). Really annoying...


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Slowish said:
After doing more testing of Sim-mode with Rally cars, I really suspect that some function of assist's is acting as a form of stability control to straighten the car out when it begins to slide. This occurs independently of the steering to some extent and masks itself as being grip-related. If I attempt to hang the tail out by inducing a big slide, the car will self-correct and settle back to a neutral point very quickly - it feels as if it pivots in the middle - no matter if it's FWD or AWD and feels totally unnatural. The more I tried to dial the behavior out with the setup, the stranger things got and I really think it comes down to some bug that got through testing because the behavior just makes no sense and I believe Codies know how to make Rally work really well.
Exactly my thoughts!  The weird thing is the cars I've driven (07 Focus, N4 Mitsubishi) seem to have no problem swapping ends under braking but when I throw them into a hairpin they just stop sliding very quickly and straighten themselves out with almost no input from the wheel.  It's hard to get wheel spin and keep the car sliding, it just gains traction and straightens itself out.  DR had this exact issue before the V2 physics, cars would bog down and just stop any kind of sliding/wheel spin way too fast.  We know now that it was extreme downforce causing that, but not sure what's going on here.  I agree with you there seems to be some kind of assist still on preventing wheel spin and correcting the car itself. Other than the car wanting to straighten itself out and lack of wheel spin at low speeds/hairpins the physics feel great.  I hope they listen to the community like they did with DR and improve that aspect, because other than that D4 is freaking amazing! 

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versedi said:
dgeesi0 said:
we have had subaru cars in our family since 1980s ;) as the previous guy said go try do them with the scooby.you shouldnt need to use a handbrake to start them off.
I've performed 3 tests on Dirt Fish area (uploading to YT right now). 
I've tried:
- Subaru Impreza 2001
- Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 6
- Mitsubishi Space Star

From these three, Space Star is easiest, it's possible even on default setup and with tweaks, these are real doughnuts.
In Lancer you're able to set Rear LSD Preload so it's really easy too, in Scoobie you don't. 

There is some weird behaviour going on with Scoobie. I think you can see that on TT - look at G ball and compare it to the other two. It's like it wants to snap and go sideways but something is holding it.

Could that be just because of the different differential? I'm going to test a few other cars as well but not today.

THE SETUPS ARE MAKING HUGE DIFFERENCE. In my opinion, they're changing more than it was in DR.

Setups: Full drift.


Scoobie: 

https://youtu.be/U9Ca1mLgu8I


Space Star:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-HAIQ7Jj2k&feature=youtu.be
Lancer:

https://youtu.be/fEh1v_qSB74
I tried the same and, as you can see from the Lancer or Subaru, there is 'something' trying to brake unnaturally the wheels as soon as the side slip angle increases (engine rpm are not able to climb anymore). The same happens in other situations and it's the reason why is alost impossible to powerslide.
Another thing driving me crazy is the absurd behaviour of the virtual steering wheel. No matter the linearity setting I use it seems that my inputs are always modified in some way (amplified or reduced depending on the rotational speed). Really annoying...


I agree I don't have a good feeling with steering wheel- it doesn't feel raw at all. I am using fully linear settings with no saturation unless I am doing something wrong in the device setup. 
EDIT:Here is my setup- is it linear no saturation 1:1?
http://i63.tinypic.com/24zc0ig.jpg

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Well, if you ask me, Dirt 4's physics are superb. Like it or not, in reality, rally cars have insane grip levels.

Im no expeet but ive been a fan of rally since the 80's, ive been out in a few group N 300bhp rally cars and they stick to the road like nothing else.

I played diry rally, on a full wheel rig for over 1000 hours, its great, near perfect but it isnt completely genuine. Dirt rally is almost as if Colin Mcrae himself set all the cars up, loose racks with loose rear ends lol. Dirt 4 is more like reality and actually shows why Loeb (meh) is the most successful driver of all time, he used all the grip to cut the car through every corner.

You can still upset the rear end with the brakes, and not for one second am i saying Dirt 4 is perfect but it has its place with regards to the actual grip levels in reality 

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versedi said:
dgeesi0 said:
we have had subaru cars in our family since 1980s ;) as the previous guy said go try do them with the scooby.you shouldnt need to use a handbrake to start them off.
I've performed 3 tests on Dirt Fish area (uploading to YT right now). 
I've tried:
- Subaru Impreza 2001
- Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 6
- Mitsubishi Space Star

From these three, Space Star is easiest, it's possible even on default setup and with tweaks, these are real doughnuts.
In Lancer you're able to set Rear LSD Preload so it's really easy too, in Scoobie you don't. 

There is some weird behaviour going on with Scoobie. I think you can see that on TT - look at G ball and compare it to the other two. It's like it wants to snap and go sideways but something is holding it.

Could that be just because of the different differential? I'm going to test a few other cars as well but not today.

THE SETUPS ARE MAKING HUGE DIFFERENCE. In my opinion, they're changing more than it was in DR.

Setups: Full drift.


Scoobie: 

https://youtu.be/U9Ca1mLgu8I


Space Star:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-HAIQ7Jj2k&feature=youtu.be
Lancer:

https://youtu.be/fEh1v_qSB74
I tried the same and, as you can see from the Lancer or Subaru, there is 'something' trying to brake unnaturally the wheels as soon as the side slip angle increases (engine rpm are not able to climb anymore). The same happens in other situations and it's the reason why is alost impossible to powerslide.


I think the "something" trying to brake unnaturally is just the physics engine simulating friction and loss of momentum from friction. This is something that seems to be missing to a large extent in DR, hence it feels a bit weird here.

is the friction and loss of momentum a bit overdone? Perhaps, but honestly I couldn't say by how much, but I doubt it's a lot. The bottom line is that the simulation is much, much closer to reality with it than without it. 

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In that situation the tires are saturated on the lateral direction, so they should spin almost freely (as you can see in the real life footage of the red Lancer doing donuts).

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In that situation the tires are saturated on the lateral direction, so they should spin almost freely (as you can see in the real life footage of the red Lancer doing donuts).
Whether they will spin freely depends on the diff setup the tyre and the friction value between the tyre and the surface. The real life lancer in the videos looks almost as though it has 100% torque biased to the rear axle. So as we are comparing very different cars on different surfaces here, no meaningful conclusion can be reached. But looking at the videos of the donuts in D4 I dont see anything particularly wrong or unrealistic without knowing the exact setups and without reference to a similar situation in real life. 

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I think Codies should just add a third "hardcore"  handling model for and save the existing "sim" mode for you guys who are absolutely convinced Dirt 4 is basically perfect. For me it's not even a debate, it's obviously totally screwed up. I don't want someone's inaccurate perceptions about driving models mucking up my rally experience... :(

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ShodanCat said:
I think Codies should just add a third "hardcore"  handling model for and save the existing "sim" mode for you guys who are absolutely convinced Dirt 4 is basically perfect. For me it's not even a debate, it's obviously totally screwed up. I don't want someone's inaccurate perceptions about driving models mucking up my rally experience... :(
Sorry but you're wrong. Drive a rally car, or even a road car in real life and you'll see that D4 simulates the experience much more accurately than DR or RBR. 

Plus no one is saying that D4 is perfect. There is no simulator out that that perfectly simulates car behaviour in minute detail on different surfaces with different setups 100% of the time. I'm sure that some of the values in the simulation of D4 are off by varying margins but to say that it's totally screwed up is neither accurate nor particularly helpful. 

I dont think many many of you guys need a hardcore simulation model, or even a simulation model, you need DR physics model alongside the gamer and simulation models in D4. 

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Well this is what I'm talking about. I'm not wrong, you are, and I'm upset that Codies is going to have to take your inaccurate physics model feedback on the level with mine... ugh. I swear I'm just going to have to go develop my own rally game.

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What you have to keep in mind guys is alot of the cars featured in D4 are from pre 2011. Back then it was fair game to have a shed load of driver assists. Petter Solberg helped with the handling model for D4, for the vast majority of his career, including his wins, alot of assists were still allowed

In 2004 for example the cars had ABS, clutch control, paddle shift, traction control, active differentials, ride height control with GPS, electronic dampers and active suspension. Having all that tech was fabulous but the cost was high and it was making it too easy for drivers. You could launch the cars with a button press.

There was a big debate between manufacturers about the regulation changes. Citroen wanted to keep things like the central diff and VW wanted the paddle shift. In the end they banned them and it went back to mechanical in 2011.

They have allowed some of the assists back into the wrc since by relaxing the regs, im guessing the physics model in D4 takes all this into account, i could be wrong though, just my opinion

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ShodanCat said:
Well this is what I'm talking about. I'm not wrong, you are, and I'm upset that Codies is going to have to take your inaccurate physics model feedback on the level with mine... ugh. I swear I'm just going to have to go develop my own rally game.
Ok then, please tell me which aspects are clearly wrong with references to your real world experiences. Because in all honesty in the majority of the situations in D4 I find it very difficult to gauge the extent to which a particular behaviour is realistic or not, and I've been driving on dirt for decades, including group n rally cars on gravel. 

in fact, reading some of these comments I get the impression that some people have no concept of how difficult it is to kick the rear out in a rally car, and how difficult it is to then control that slide, especially at high speed., and how easy it is to lose momentum and revs by getting it too sideways etc. And this is almost exlusively what the compliants seem to be about.  

There certainly are things that can be improved in D4, but those improvements have to come from references to real life, from actual testing, and not from opinions and conjectures from people who use other games as a reference for realistic car behaviour.

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Headlong said:
Ok then, please tell me which aspects are clearly wrong with references to your real world experiences. Because in all honesty in the majority of the situations in D4 I find it very difficult to gauge the extent to which a particular behaviour is realistic or not, and I've been driving on dirt for decades, including group n rally cars on gravel. 

in fact, reading some of these comments I get the impression that some people have no concept of how difficult it is to kick the rear out in a rally car, and how difficult it is to then control that slide, especially at high speed., and how easy it is to lose momentum and revs by getting it too sideways etc. And this is almost exlusively what the compliants seem to be about.  

There certainly are things that can be improved in D4, but those improvements have to come from references to real life, from actual testing, and not from opinions and conjectures from people who use other games as a reference for realistic car behaviour.
Of course it's hard to get the butt out with a Group N car, which you are so familiar with, because they weigh about 59,000 tons. WRC cars are different, especially when setup for oversteer. They are quite tailhappy. Look at this, he is sliding constantly, with very little effort (old WRC car but still, I wish the 2001 Subaru handled like this in-game):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGtCYoBxp6Y

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Porkhammer. You can clearly see he has assists in that video. Look how much hes turning the wheel in, with the car simply nullifying the input. Also hes upsetting the rear with braking, thats exactly how the game works. Well, it does for me anyway whilst using my TX.

during that era especially the cars were jam packed with driver aids

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battfinkz said:
Porkhammer. You can clearly see he has assists in that video. Look how much hes turning the wheel in, with the car simply nullifying the input. Also hes upsetting the rear with braking, thats exactly how the game works. Well, it does for me anyway whilst using my TX.

during that era especially the cars were jam packed with driver aids
2001 had no aids to my knowledge. But please, teach me otherwise. I like learning.

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Forgive my awful driving, i made a vid on the first day of owing D4, for the few corners i actually stay in the track (lol) you csn see the rear end is nice and loose. This is no assists and sim steering though.  https://youtu.be/hHXW0xUAOwo

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Headlong said:
Ok then, please tell me which aspects are clearly wrong with references to your real world experiences. Because in all honesty in the majority of the situations in D4 I find it very difficult to gauge the extent to which a particular behaviour is realistic or not, and I've been driving on dirt for decades, including group n rally cars on gravel. 

in fact, reading some of these comments I get the impression that some people have no concept of how difficult it is to kick the rear out in a rally car, and how difficult it is to then control that slide, especially at high speed., and how easy it is to lose momentum and revs by getting it too sideways etc. And this is almost exlusively what the compliants seem to be about.  

There certainly are things that can be improved in D4, but those improvements have to come from references to real life, from actual testing, and not from opinions and conjectures from people who use other games as a reference for realistic car behaviour.
Of course it's hard to get the butt out with a Group N car, which you are so familiar with, because they weigh about 59,000 tons. WRC cars are different, especially when setup for oversteer. They are quite tailhappy. Look at this, he is sliding constantly, with very little effort (old WRC car but still, I wish the 2001 Subaru handled like this in-game):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGtCYoBxp6Y

Everything looks easy when you're watching a very skilled person performing it, whether it's playing the piano, making a painting, or driving a rally car. What you don't perceive in videos like this is the virtuosity on the brake pedal and throttle in combination with the steering inputs. The brake pedal and throttlevirtuosity in particular is really important and this is something that is very difficult to model properly in a sim and I don't think that D4 does a particularly good job in this regard. 

My my point is, it very, very difficult to gauge the accuracy of a sim's handing model because there are so many variables, which can even include things like the brake pedal feedback and force feedback in general. Again watch the replays in dirt4 to see how the cars move around and you'll see that the physics model is excellent, unfortunately it sometimes doesn't come across when actually driving. 

As for your comment about there being a bit too much grip, you may well be right, and who knows, maybe the way they've modelled the weight and friction might be a bit overdone. But in terms of quantifying it, I have no clue. Should dry gravel be 10-20% less grippy? What about when it's wet? What about if you're the first car out and the gravel is very soft? What if the gravel is compacted and swept by 20 other cars tuat drove through the stage before you? 

I dont think that that a lot of people appreciate the scale of the undertaking when doing a rally sim. 

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Of course they were mate, they were using them before 2001 too. Slowly as systems developed they were implemented. It came to a head in 2011 when they were banned

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You drove that stage with a very neutral, understeer-centric driving style, though. The only times I saw real oversteer was when either you clipped the outside edge of the stage into the grass/looser gravel (this is actually another problem with the physics, as the grip level between the two is enormous causing these snap oversteer spins just as what happened to you here), and some with the car getting unsettled as you braked over crests. Otherwise there were numerous points where the grip issue was apparent as you had to steer aggressively into corners as the nose pushed outside.

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battfinkz said:
Of course they were mate, they were using them before 2001 too. Slowly as systems developed they were implemented. It came to a head in 2011 when they were banned
So you say, but I'd like some kind of confirmation.

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Exactly how burns is doing in his video... look at the extra turning in input hes having to do on tighter corners. Also, as i said pal it was the first day of playing the game. The wheel was set to 540 degrees so the input looks very minimal, slightly difficult to see the opposite lock. 

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battfinkz said:
Exactly how burns is doing in his video... look at the extra turning in input hes having to do on tighter corners. Also, as i said pal it was the first day of playing the game. The wheel was set to 540 degrees so the input looks very minimal, slightly difficult to see the opposite lock. 
I mean like real proof. :P

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