[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[Gordouxk 0]

ShodanCat said:

Gordouxk said:

ShodanCat said:

The fact that we are now up to almost 100 pages in this thread without a single developer comment is unacceptable IMHO. I went into D4 (which I pre-ordered on the first day it was available to do so)  with high confidence based on DR's development and dev interaction based on feedback. The way D4 is being handled (the key developers going on vacation for a month *immediately* following release? Really???) and absolutely no communication other than a launch day Facebook stream that hinted at known problems and extremely vague response in the last Road Book just flabbergasts me that they could go from a shining example with DR to D4 which ensures I'll never be preordering - and maybe buying - a Codies title again.

I know this is basically OT to what this thread is about, but the thing is we can't just hash this over for 100+ pages without any feedback. It's just wasting breath at this point.

/rant off

We have nearly 100 pages of about 5 people repeating the same thing over and over again and being rude and disrespectful to the other 5 people who diagree with them. 

I agree, because we've already established the physics are off. We have made our case pretty clear and it's up to Codies to do something, if anything, about it. 

Who is we and how did we establish that the physics are off?

[Spacepadrille 28]

I'm following this thread from the beginning... A lot of interesting things have been said. About the physics of D4, about the cars, about the setups. 
But nearly nothing have been said about the FFB. What I mean is that the physic of the game is transmitted to the player by the wheel via FFB. So if we don't agree first on what is a "descent" or a "good" FFB (according to wheel/platform), how can we discuss about the physics wisely ?
Recently I lowered a lot all the sliders of the FFB, and I now enjoy the game a lot, with tons of information from the tires and the suspensions, a very good weight transfer, a real pleasure, and really better times.
My settings (PS4/T300)
SAT : 75
WF : 0
TF : 70
S : 59
TS : 13
C : 80
SL : 100
SCF : 70
ON

[PaloSamo 0]

Spacepadrille said:

I'm following this thread from the beginning... A lot of interesting things have been said. About the physics of D4, about the cars, about the setups. 
But nearly nothing have been said about the FFB. What I mean is that the physic of the game is transmitted to the player by the wheel via FFB. So if we don't agree first on what is a "descent" or a "good" FFB (according to wheel/platform), how can we discuss about the physics wisely ?
Recently I lowered a lot all the sliders of the FFB, and I now enjoy the game a lot, with tons of information from the tires and the suspensions, a very good weight transfer, a real pleasure, and really better times.
My settings (PS4/T300)
SAT : 75
WF : 0
TF : 70
S : 59
TS : 13
C : 80
SL : 100
SCF : 70
ON

What about pad users? What about pleasure of sliding a car through corners? You can't fix broken physics by lowering FFB.

[PaloSamo 0]

Gordouxk said:

We have nearly 100 pages of about 5 people repeating the same thing over and over again and being rude and disrespectful to the other 5 people who diagree with them. 

You mean 1 other person with 5 different accounts, didn't you? ;)

Gordouxk said:

Funny that you say that since Dirt 4 is about 1000 times more sim than Dirt Rally ever was. My guess is that years of playing games like Dirt Rally and even RBR tricked people's brians into believing that that's how rally cars drive in real life. But the reality is much different and some people are struggling to readjust. 

So Bobby Kubica was wrong when claiming that RBR was the best rally simulator on the market? Interesting...

Gordouxk said:

PaloSamo said:

LittleApple said:

https://youtu.be/VFqfSmp0YQU
https://youtu.be/q1bkdHwNSD8 
No dramas driving the escort. I dont think the car has anything wrong with it from a personal POV i think they're as close to the real thing as any sim has come. Most corners had an entry speed in this video of around 140kmh. Would drop about 20-40km's off the top speed mid corner simply from the drifting angle. Recorded a video on Australia and the UK aswell but those stages were way to bumpy to actually give clean long drifts/slides thats what people seemed to want.

Able to do much longer slides in Dirt Fish if requested.

The hand of God comment seems to me to be a combination of poor setup and driving combination. It takes some practice and clear thought to learn how to drive and setup a car. This is a very hard thing for many wrap thier heads around. Well we see professionals getting setups wrong all the time. (Hamilton, Verstappen, Mcrea). Schumacher was probably one of the few who always seemed to nail perfection on his setups.

I didn't see much sliding in your videos, mate. 

I see too much sliding goin on. In real life going through such fast corners you would not want the car to get too sideways at all because it would take off too much speed. Especially on a very soft and heavy gravel like at Michigan. In real life you would want to drive that particular car very straight like Latvalla in that Audi Quattro Finland video I posted earlier. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBOKD6fGu0

[SamRWD 2]

Wow, we still get RBR mentioned here? The video of Kubica saying it is the most realistic rally sim when it comes to physics, and that he was driving it a lot is not enough? RBR on boards look just like a real life on boards unless you cannot drive and are not capable of controlling a car the proper way. So do RX on boards in D4- they also look just like real life cars. Rally stages don't. As we saw shortening gearbox shows how high the grip is - ancient rwd car accelerates like a rocket and gets straightened by lateral grip even if it brakes it with throttle and weight transfer. 
It takes multiple users with accounts made after Headbong 's ban to argue that. Maybe on top of few more who actually try to be constructive with their feedback. 

[Gordouxk 0]

If you guys love RBR so much then go play RBR. I prefer Dirt 4 and that's what I will play. And I don't want it to be like like RBR. 

[SamRWD 2]

Here we go. You are not interested in a sim after all. 

Why are you even arguing then? We want a sim, you gave gamer handling, please don't get involved in a sim handling discussion, just as we are not trying to spoil your gamer handling. 

As for your suggestion to get back to RBR - it makes just as much sense as us asking you to get back to Dirt Showdown, or Sega Rally. We were told D4 is going to be a sim. We hope Codies can deliver what they promised. 

[KevM 44]

I wish I could click both Disagree AND LOL on some of the posts by Gourouxk.  Lol

Here is a response to your claim that 'we wanted sim, we got it'
The Rally starts on wet tarmac and finishes in a gravel forest.  The grip we have in D4 is inverted.  We can slide tarmac but not gravel??  In the video we have both hairpins and flat 6 corners.  Have a watch....
https://youtu.be/2DopDARqZsE

[PaloSamo 0]

KevM said:

I wish I could click both Disagree AND LOL on some of the posts by Gourouxk.  Lol

Here is a response to your claim that 'we wanted sim, we got it'
The Rally starts on wet tarmac and finishes in a gravel forest.  The grip we have in D4 is inverted.  We can slide tarmac but not gravel??  In the video we have both hairpins and flat 6 corners.  Have a watch....
https://youtu.be/2DopDARqZsE

I can't watch it. Too much oversteer.

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

Here we go. You are not interested in a sim after all. 

Why are you even arguing then? We want a sim, you gave gamer handling, please don't get involved in a sim handling discussion, just as we are not trying to spoil your gamer handling. 

As for your suggestion to get back to RBR - it makes just as much sense as us asking you to get back to Dirt Showdown, or Sega Rally. We were told D4 is going to be a sim. We hope Codies can deliver what they promised. 

You've been brainwashed into thinking that RBR is the holy grail of rally sims and that anything that is not exactly like RBR is therefore not a sim. The cars is Dirt 4 feel and drive 100 times more like real cars than the hovercraft, slicks on gravel physics of RBR. RBR doesn't even simulate suspension rebound and surface softness and yet you think it is superior. Why is that? 

[KevM 44]

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)


PS I completely agree that D4 is a better simulation of what a car does, than the old RBR game.  But it's been pushed out without some required changes to the UI end of things ie the tuning menu is now wrong in its core parameters.  I know there's a brilliant physics engine buried in there somewhere, but it needs a few vital tweaks to polish it up for Dirt4.  It CAN be fantastic, I know for a fact 

[Gordouxk 0]

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

Here we go. You are not interested in a sim after all. 

Why are you even arguing then? We want a sim, you gave gamer handling, please don't get involved in a sim handling discussion, just as we are not trying to spoil your gamer handling. 

As for your suggestion to get back to RBR - it makes just as much sense as us asking you to get back to Dirt Showdown, or Sega Rally. We were told D4 is going to be a sim. We hope Codies can deliver what they promised. 

You've been brainwashed into thinking that RBR is the holy grail of rally sims and that anything that is not exactly like RBR is therefore not a sim. The cars is Dirt 4 feel and drive 100 times more like real cars than the hovercraft, slicks on gravel physics of RBR. RBR doesn't even simulate suspension rebound and surface softness and yet you think it is superior. Why is that? 

Another example showing how uninformed you are. You definitely need to take another 3 driving lessons, Sir!

[KevM 44]

Gordouxk said:

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

Idiot reply of the day.  Definite SPAM

[SamRWD 2]

KevM said:

Gordouxk said:

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

Idiot reply of the day.  Definite SPAM

Yup, we should report it, so mods can make sure Headbong doesn't get to spam here no more.

[Spacepadrille 28]

PaloSamo said:

Spacepadrille said:

I'm following this thread from the beginning... A lot of interesting things have been said. About the physics of D4, about the cars, about the setups. 
But nearly nothing have been said about the FFB. What I mean is that the physic of the game is transmitted to the player by the wheel via FFB. So if we don't agree first on what is a "descent" or a "good" FFB (according to wheel/platform), how can we discuss about the physics wisely ?
Recently I lowered a lot all the sliders of the FFB, and I now enjoy the game a lot, with tons of information from the tires and the suspensions, a very good weight transfer, a real pleasure, and really better times.
My settings (PS4/T300)
SAT : 75
WF : 0
TF : 70
S : 59
TS : 13
C : 80
SL : 100
SCF : 70
ON

What about pad users? What about pleasure of sliding a car through corners? You can't fix broken physics by lowering FFB.

I'm wheel user, never played with a pad... can't speak about that.  The physics don't seem too much broken once you have set correctly the FFB and tweak a little the car setup. Sliding is there. And lowering FFB is not necessary less force, just finer sensations that allows you to drive better. 

[SamRWD 2]

Sliding is not there. There is just a temporary loose of grip that get's regained no matter what. You cannot make a continuous powersteer slide the way real life cars do.

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

KevM said:

Gordouxk said:

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

Idiot reply of the day.  Definite SPAM

Yup, we should report it, so mods can make sure Headbong doesn't get to spam here no more.

The secret weapon comes out again. Report. You guys believe in free speech, or is this North Korea or something? 

Its very simple. The sim market is now very big. So if you prefer RBR then go and play RBR. To me RBR feels like every stage, even gravel, is a very slippery and bumpy Tarmac. There is no surface softness, the suspension rebound isn't simulated and it just feels very flat, predictable and boring, once you get used to the lack of grip. Also I think overall it feels a bit scripted and nowhere near as organic as Dirt 4. ive been driving for three decades now, all sorts of cars on all sorts of surfaces and often way too fast than I should and what is legal and I know what driving a real car feels like, and I know what RBR feels like and I know what Dirt4 feels like. 

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

KevM said:

Gordouxk said:

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

Idiot reply of the day.  Definite SPAM

Yup, we should report it, so mods can make sure Headbong doesn't get to spam here no more.

The secret weapon comes out again. Report. You guys believe in free speech, or is this North Korea or something? 

Its very simple. The sim market is now very big. So if you prefer RBR then go and play RBR. To me RBR feels like every stage, even gravel, is a very slippery and bumpy Tarmac. There is no surface softness, the suspension rebound isn't simulated and it just feels very flat, predictable and boring, once you get used to the lack of grip. Also I think overall it feels a bit scripted and nowhere near as organic as Dirt 4. ive been driving for three decades now, all sorts of cars on all sorts of surfaces and often way too fast than I should and what is legal and I know what driving a real car feels like, and I know what RBR feels like and I know what Dirt4 feels like. 

Both are simulated. Headbong's opinion means nothing to me compared to a real world WRC driver's opinion that used RBR as a practice platform.

Free speech doesn't mean you can troll/ spam posts that are not based on reality, such as one above. You post a D4 footage saying the car has no problem sliding in oversteer, where it clearly does. That's not a free speech, that's spam. Especially when one uses multiple accounts, that post saying "you're making too much sense, are you Headbong?" was just way too cringy.
EDIT: Honestly, did you even try NGP?

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

KevM said:

Gordouxk said:

KevM said:

That's not an RBR reply I posted lad, it's a REAL RALLY I'm comparing to - lol

Cars grip so well on tar, even on the older tyre tech, but you can here the constant throttle work on gravel.  There is a part in the video that looks like a small version of the bowl from DR Sweet Lamb, and we could drive it in exactly the same way - a nice controlled powerslide with a constant angle on and plenty of opposite lock.  

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

I don't know what you think your videos show, but they don't show what you think they show. And if you can't on power oversteer in dirt 4 you're definitely doing something wrong. 

Idiot reply of the day.  Definite SPAM

Yup, we should report it, so mods can make sure Headbong doesn't get to spam here no more.

The secret weapon comes out again. Report. You guys believe in free speech, or is this North Korea or something? 

Its very simple. The sim market is now very big. So if you prefer RBR then go and play RBR. To me RBR feels like every stage, even gravel, is a very slippery and bumpy Tarmac. There is no surface softness, the suspension rebound isn't simulated and it just feels very flat, predictable and boring, once you get used to the lack of grip. Also I think overall it feels a bit scripted and nowhere near as organic as Dirt 4. ive been driving for three decades now, all sorts of cars on all sorts of surfaces and often way too fast than I should and what is legal and I know what driving a real car feels like, and I know what RBR feels like and I know what Dirt4 feels like. 

Both are simulated. Headbong's opinion means nothing to me compared to a real world WRC driver's opinion that used RBR as a practice platform.

Free speech doesn't mean you can troll/ spam posts that are not based on reality, such as one above. You post a D4 footage saying the car has no problem sliding in oversteer, where it clearly does. That's not a free speech, that's spam. Especially when one uses multiple accounts, that post saying "you're making too much sense, are you Headbong?" was just way too cringy.

If you're referring to Kubica please show me where he said that RBR is more realistic than Dirt4. If you think that Kubica is not aware of the deficiencies in the physics of RBR you are delusional. Of course he is ware of them, but there is still a lot of realism there and there is a lot of value in practicing lines, reflexes, inputs, listening to pace notes etc. 

Also I find it very funny that you accuse me of spamming, yet you and a few others are basically posting videos showing the same stuff and repeating the same stuff for nearly a month now. As if you weren't heard the first time and as if repeating something enough times will make it true. Now, that's spamming. 

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

If you're referring to Kubica please show me where he said that RBR is more realistic than Dirt4.

Show me any WRC driver saying about D4 what Kubica said about RBR. D4 was not released in time when Kubica was driving RBR. DR that was, and that was a base on which D4 was build was. RBR is so close to real life, that he felt it was the best platform to use. D4 is completely different from RBR, and from any other simulator. It is different from real life looking at onboards. It is different from RX that is similar to both RBR and real life. There is no reason to believe D4 rally is realistic at all. Unless you count devs words (devs who did awesome job in some regards, but also made at least two really basic mistakes- one in setup, second with car internal in previous game), and Headbong's posts.

Gordouxk said:
If you think that Kubica is not aware of the deficiencies in the physics of RBR you are delusional. Of course he is ware of them, but there is still a lot of realism there and there is a lot of value in practicing lines, reflexes, inputs, listening to pace notes etc. 

If you think I think that, then you are delusional. No sim is perfect. It is about how far from reality it is. If you think that you know what Kubica thinks and why he was choosing RBR on top of what he said ("RBR is the most realistic, the physics are the closest to real life"), then you are delusional. You seriously need to stop guessing what other people think, that makes you look really silly. And cringy.

Gordouxk said:

Also I find it very funny that you accuse me of spamming, yet you and a few others are basically posting videos showing the same stuff and repeating the same stuff for nearly a month now. As if you weren't heard the first time and as if repeating something enough times will make it true. Now, that's spamming. 

You are spamming, we try to reason with you showing footage that proves you wrong. You are brainwashed after playing arcade games and having 3 driving lessons and repeat over and over the same thing. Multiple accounts do. We didn't expect Headbong will be back, so we tried to have a conversation. Now we are tired, so we are putting you down.

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

Gordouxk said:

If you're referring to Kubica please show me where he said that RBR is more realistic than Dirt4.

Show me any WRC driver saying about D4 what Kubica said about RBR. D4 was not released in time when Kubica was driving RBR. DR that was, and that was a base on which D4 was build was. RBR is so close to real life, that he felt it was the best platform to use. D4 is completely different from RBR, and from any other simulator. It is different from real life looking at onboards. It is different from RX that is similar to both RBR and real life. There is no reason to believe D4 rally is realistic at all. Unless you count devs words (devs who did awesome job in some regards, but also made at least two really basic mistakes- one in setup, second with car internal in previous game), and Headbong's posts.

Gordouxk said:
If you think that Kubica is not aware of the deficiencies in the physics of RBR you are delusional. Of course he is ware of them, but there is still a lot of realism there and there is a lot of value in practicing lines, reflexes, inputs, listening to pace notes etc. 

If you think I think that, then you are delusional. No sim is perfect. It is about how far from reality it is. If you think that you know what Kubica thinks and why he was choosing RBR on top of what he said ("RBR is the most realistic, the physics are the closest to real life"), then you are delusional. You seriously need to stop guessing what other people think, that makes you look really silly. And cringy.

Gordouxk said:

Also I find it very funny that you accuse me of spamming, yet you and a few others are basically posting videos showing the same stuff and repeating the same stuff for nearly a month now. As if you weren't heard the first time and as if repeating something enough times will make it true. Now, that's spamming. 

You are spamming, we try to reason with you showing footage that proves you wrong. You are brainwashed after playing arcade games and having 3 driving lessons and repeat over and over the same thing. Multiple accounts do. We didn't expect Headbong will be back, so we tried to have a conversation. Now we are tired, so we are putting you down.

Dirt 4 will never be like RBR, which I think is great. You are wasting your time here. If you want to play RBR, or something like that, go play RBR. 

[SamRWD 2]

I hope it won't be RBR. I hope it will be closer to reality than RBR.

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

I hope it won't be RBR. I hope it will be closer to reality than RBR.

It is closer to reality than RBR. 

[fab1701 0]

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Everybody CALM DOWN.

First of all leave RBR out of this discussion. It's a game. There is no point in comparing the physics to an other interpretation of the real world. Just take RL as reference, that should be enough.

Also flagging people because of disagreement is absolutely the wrong way. Everybodys experience on the handling is extremely subjective and if you disagree with someone, then it's not the time to prove them wrong no matter what. Try and listen to them about what they say, why they say what they say and what they are doing differently. We are not here to create a uniform opinion everybody just has to agree on as a fact. This is a discussion about what is working in the game and what isn't. If somebody achieves something that was thought to be impossible, then get behind their point before arguing against them. I feel like that is missing here.