[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[Gordouxk 0]

fab1701 said:

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Everybody CALM DOWN.

First of all leave RBR out of this discussion. It's a game. There is no point in comparing the physics to an other interpretation of the real world. Just take RL as reference, that should be enough.

Also flagging people because of disagreement is absolutely the wrong way. Everybodys experience on the handling is extremely subjective and if you disagree with someone, then it's not the time to prove them wrong no matter what. Try and listen to them about what they say, why they say what they say and what they are doing differently. We are not here to create a uniform opinion everybody just has to agree on as a fact. This is a discussion about what is working in the game and what isn't. If somebody achieves something that was thought to be impossible, then get behind their point before arguing against them. I feel like that is missing here.

I'm perfectly calm. But I do find it curious that Sam keeps making references to RBR all the time. He never once made a reference to his real life driving experiences and how that compares to the game. I wonder if he's like Porkhammer in that he doesn't have a license and doesn't drive in real life. 

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

fab1701 said:

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Everybody CALM DOWN.

First of all leave RBR out of this discussion. It's a game. There is no point in comparing the physics to an other interpretation of the real world. Just take RL as reference, that should be enough.

Also flagging people because of disagreement is absolutely the wrong way. Everybodys experience on the handling is extremely subjective and if you disagree with someone, then it's not the time to prove them wrong no matter what. Try and listen to them about what they say, why they say what they say and what they are doing differently. We are not here to create a uniform opinion everybody just has to agree on as a fact. This is a discussion about what is working in the game and what isn't. If somebody achieves something that was thought to be impossible, then get behind their point before arguing against them. I feel like that is missing here.

I'm perfectly calm. But I do find it curious that Sam keeps making references to RBR all the time. He never once made a reference to his real life driving experiences and how that compares to the game. I wonder if he's like Porkhammer in that he doesn't have a license and doesn't drive in real life. 

We were long gone with RBR discussion untill you mentioned it again. Just another example of how your posts are not based on reality.

[dgeesi0 305]

why is he back on ? its obvious who he is.

[Spacepadrille 28]

SamRWD said:

Sliding is not there. There is just a temporary loose of grip that get's regained no matter what. You cannot make a continuous powersteer slide the way real life cars do.

How do you call that when you slide non stop during several corners, feeling the tires and the diff work, adjusting the trajectory only with throttle and small wheel inputs ? 

[dgeesi0 305]

the real odd thing is as kev said you can do it on tarmac but not on gravel.i can set up a drift on tarmac and do whole hairpin corners yet on gravel you cant.

you need the over steer in early you need the backends to naturally flick currently it locks of about 80 percent then comes back instead of fully going round.i am surprised that nothing much has been said by the devs.maybe they have left the thread so we just blow off steam while they work on it.

[SamRWD 2]

Trajectory of a fracture of what real life cars can do if a driver is not careful with throttle and small wheel inputs . In D4 you have to go extreme with setup and controls to go oversteer, but since physics parameters are flawed you cannot continue that slide. As the footage that Headbong refers to shows. In real life you can spin a car as it happens to every rally driver. Even the best one make mistakes from time to time. Show me an example of a car oversteering and sliding non stop during several corners. I am talking oversteer powerslide, non stop as you said. Feel free to go extreme and just violently throw the car around on loose. Prove that you can make that non stop slide during several corners.

[Spacepadrille 28]

My purpose is to say that with proper FFB settings and proper car setup, it's possible on gravels to have long continuous slides. I'm not a good driver, but I recently experienced such things (with a big big smile on my face), on wales with the R5 Fiesta. I'm on PS4 with a T300.

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

Trajectory of a fracture of what real life cars can do if a driver is not careful with throttle and small wheel inputs . In D4 you have to go extreme with setup and controls to go oversteer, but since physics parameters are flawed you cannot continue that slide. As the footage that Headbong refers to shows. In real life you can spin a car as it happens to every rally driver. Even the best one make mistakes from time to time. Show me an example of a car oversteering and sliding non stop during several corners. I am talking oversteer powerslide, non stop as you said. Feel free to go extreme and just violently throw the car around on loose. Prove that you can make that non stop slide during several corners.

Prove that you can do it in real life in those cars on similar surfaces on similar corners at similar speeds.  If you can do that then you will have a case, but not before. 

[dgeesi0 305]

well think about it how many events are long sweeping drifty type corners ? none i can think of they are often smallish hairpins and windy in between.

there are hundreds of videos showing how important over steer is i have and others have shown them already.yet we cant do it on gravel with many of the cars.tarmac you can but you really have to throw cars in at stupid speeds to get the reaction you want.

i personally think there is some hidden assist which stops you going to far to keep you going . so it makes the game easier to drive. in dirt rally there was something similar when you went round corners and its been in dirt games since they started.im just wondering if its on and you cant turn it off.

remember this is dirt series which generally are easy drive. not dirt rally.

[SamRWD 2]

Spacepadrille said:

My purpose is to say that with proper FFB settings and proper car setup, it's possible on gravels to have long continuous slides. I'm not a good driver, but I recently experienced such things (with a big big smile on my face), on wales with the R5 Fiesta.

I felt Fiesta is the worst R5 car in that regard. Would you mind posting an example of you doing what you claim can be done with that car in Wales? I posted an example of me trying to do that with Hyundai R5 in Sweden (the best feeling car next to Mitsu R5 in D4 IMHO) and with proper setup you will oversteer easily, but will not be able to continue a slide. If you won't counter a slide you will end up grabbing inside of a corner because grip is too high and will throw you inside, or you have to countersteer resulting in a car loosing a slide. If you want to do something in between, then you will find the car straightening itself because lateral grip will make it do so. Every stage of what I described is really violent, not graduate at all. The best way to go sideways is to enter the corner way too fast, so the inertia will maintain the slide for a little bit longer, but you will loose the momentum easily due to what I already explained many times. Slow speed corners navigated using just car weight/ inertia with just minor throttle control? Only on real life onboards, not in D4.

[KevM 44]

Spacepadrille said:

My purpose is to say that with proper FFB settings and proper car setup, it's possible on gravels to have long continuous slides. I'm not a good driver, but I recently experienced such things (with a big big smile on my face), on wales with the R5 Fiesta. I'm on PS4 with a T300.

It's not.  Anyway, R5 is borderline Off-Topic

[Spacepadrille 28]

SamRWD said:

Trajectory of a fracture of what real life cars can do if a driver is not careful with throttle and small wheel inputs . In D4 you have to go extreme with setup and controls to go oversteer, but since physics parameters are flawed you cannot continue that slide. As the footage that Headbong refers to shows. In real life you can spin a car as it happens to every rally driver. Even the best one make mistakes from time to time. Show me an example of a car oversteering and sliding non stop during several corners. I am talking oversteer powerslide, non stop as you said. Feel free to go extreme and just violently throw the car around on loose. Prove that you can make that non stop slide during several corners.

I'm not good sharing videos and such things, but I will try to prove you this, it's fair. ;-)
The subject of this thread is feedback about "car feel" and "physics". This obviously includes FFB and car setups, because with a given physic model, these are the parameters that make you feel the physics in a good or a bad way. I'm not in the debate Dirt4 is fantastic or D4 is a piece of shit. I never drove real rally cars, so I can't know. I just try to take off the best of the game, and ffb fine setting or car fine setup helps a lot in that way. That's why I wonder why we don't talk more about ffb in this thread.

[KevM 44]

DiRT Rally throw-back....



Gone....  But, not forgotten....  :(                 

[SamRWD 2]

DR RWD felt nice, but at least V1 AWD was also really bad. I personally don't miss DR, I would rather get a proper D4 we were promised. BTW anyone tried repe physics mod?

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

SamRWD said:

DR RWD felt nice, but at least V1 AWD was also really bad. I personally don't miss DR, I would rather get a proper D4 we were promised. BTW anyone tried repe physics mod?

Rfpe. It's great but has too low grip on some surfaces. 
I'm modding it with good results. At the moment I have some troubles with the asphalt part on RX cars, but it's almost done and I hope to release it soon. 

[fab1701 0]

A thing I found with the Mk2 by the way is, that sliding gets more progressive when the rear is actually softer than the front. Making the rear anti roll bar firmer may help braking the traction, but on the other hand it also gets really snappy in the process. Again, key to get rid of the understeer is by softening the front, but not too far either, because then you have the same snappyness again, but caused by a different effect. In fact, I'm driving the Mk2 with no rollbar on the rear lately, didn't changed a thing about the gears and having a blast going on-throttle oversteer sideways.

[dgeesi0 305]

please post your settings in a picture i will go try it later.thanks !

[fab1701 0]

Atm this is my Mk2 setup:

(Front) Toe Angle: 0.20°
(Front) Camber Angle: -2.40°

Braking Force: 2572.00Nm
Brake Bias: 54%

(Rear) LSD Driving Lock: 32%
(Rear) LSD Braking Lock: 16%
(Rear) LSD Preload: 40.00Nm

(Front) Slow Bump: -2.00
(Front) Slow Rebound: +1.00
(Rear) Slow Bump: -1.00
(Rear) Slow Rebound: +2.00

(Front) Ride Height: 0.00mm
(Front) Spring Rate: 61.68N/mm
(Front) Anti-Roll Bar: 12.73N/mm
(Rear) Ride Height: 0.00mm
(Rear) Spring Rate: 31.64N/mm
(Rear) Anti-Roll Bar: 0.00N/mm

I'm not claiming that this makes everything perfect, but I think this might be the way to go. The idea I'm going after is to make the grip on all wheels as progressive as possible. Thats done by keeping all wheels in contact with the road, even in extreme situations. In case the car feels still too snappy for your liking try firming up the front a bit. If thats creating too much understeer, give it a bit more toe-out, instead of toe-in like it is now. If instead the oversteer feels still too weak, increase the front softness even further. Maybe front spring rate to around 55N/mm and anti-roll bar to 5N/mm or something. Braking is reduced and set to around 50% bias to further help with consistency. I tested my setup in wales and australia.

EDIT: Played around again and for really aggressive driving i would suggest my setting with the following changes:
(Front) Toe Angle: -0.20°
(Front) Spring Rate: 55.95N/mm
(Front) Anti-Roll Bar: 5.45N/mm

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

Trajectory of a fracture of what real life cars can do if a driver is not careful with throttle and small wheel inputs . In D4 you have to go extreme with setup and controls to go oversteer, but since physics parameters are flawed you cannot continue that slide. As the footage that Headbong refers to shows. In real life you can spin a car as it happens to every rally driver. Even the best one make mistakes from time to time. Show me an example of a car oversteering and sliding non stop during several corners. I am talking oversteer powerslide, non stop as you said. Feel free to go extreme and just violently throw the car around on loose. Prove that you can make that non stop slide during several corners.

Prove that you can do it in real life in those cars on similar surfaces on similar corners at similar speeds.  If you can do that then you will have a case, but not before. 

Prove that I can do what? Drive R5 car like that? I can drive better in D4 than any R5 driver does in real life. Even when FORCING the game to let me go oversteer and waste time and momentum on that. Those stupid real world drivers don't know they can just copy D4 car setup into their car and just make cars glued to the surface. They could start braking in 2 seconds to full stop, and could generally just drive on gravel the way they do on tarmac.
If you mean that you want me to post a real life footage, I already did. Including telemetry. Maybe you want to make a point and drive Focus WRC 2001 on Wales and post an onboard? We have plenty of Colin's footage, I also posted couple including one showing braking distance from 100 km/h to 2nd gear corner. Colin was also an amateur because he couldn't make it in 2 seconds (he didn't even have to brake to full stop, and still took him so much longer distance and time). I posted tons of footage in the beginning of this thread. It takes extreme example like Rally Poland with extremely worn surface for active diffs cars to act they do in D4's Wales- self straightening takes place when they hit road bank following a series of deep ruts. Even then R5 cars have no problem powersteering up to the point they hit that "wall" in the surface that stops them. It never happens in real life Wales because that surface never gets that deep ruts. Wet Wales is even more off in D4 because even that Rally Poland doesn't work like that on wet where surface get's more smooth.
EDIT: Even Loeb is a terrible driver!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44tUE65yEzE

[madwak 0]

I must be as bad as Loeb  then cos I keep doing that in Dirt 4 - very easily

[SamRWD 2]

OK, you also could do that slow speed donut he did in order to turn around, right?

[KevM 44]

Loeb was amateur, he kept loading the RBR physics before gravel stages... 

LOLoeb

[madwak 0]

SamRWD said:

OK, you also could do that slow speed donut he did in order to turn around, right?

The slow speed doughnut is the easy part, are you sure you haven't left your traction control turned on?

[LittleApple 47]

Defintely agree something is up when applying power. Seems like flooring it generates huge amounts of traction and grip. If stay light on the throttle you can feel wheelspin and more oversteer. Dgeesi0 i think is onto something about traction control assists being stuck on. It defintely feels like it especially whenever i step in a heavier 4WD car ingame.

So far i've been able to tune the pendulum effect out of 4wd/rwd cars when they're sliding from momentum/weight shifting on gravel. Its the application of full throttle that always produces some weird behaviour for me. Its felt in all 4wd/rwd some worse than others. I havent touched gear ratios to see if thats a path worth going down to try and resolve it. Damn i hate tuning gears without telemetry tools.

PaloSamo said:

 On a side note, who's Mcrea?

Apologies i meant Mcrae.. My accuracy in typing nose dives when im tired like i was last night. I made alloot of mistakes and edits in that post. My apologies.

KevM said:

Hey, I might try my brake trick on DiRT Rally to see how it feels!! :)

Last year i was playing Dirt Rally for a couple of months with the potentiometer in my brake pedal faulty and was always applying 4%-6% brake lol. I didnt notice it at first until i watched replays with my brakelights on. It actually made cornering allot better in Dirt Rally but it hugely effect striaght line speeds. It works fantasticly well for going faster through corners. (except on greece). On Monaco and Sweden it felt like a hack/cheat.

[PaloSamo 0]

LittleApple said:

PaloSamo said:

 On a side note, who's Mcrea?

Apologies i meant Mcrae.. My accuracy in typing nose dives when im tired like i was last night. I made alloot of mistakes and edits in that post. My apologies.

No problem bro, we all make mistakes :)