[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[PaloSamo 0]

Gordouxk said:

I'm perfectly calm. But I do find it curious that Sam keeps making references to RBR all the time. He never once made a reference to his real life driving experiences and how that compares to the game. I wonder if he's like Porkhammer in that he doesn't have a license and doesn't drive in real life. 

Porkhammer didn't say he never drove in real life. Better still, there is a Dutch fellow out there who didn't have a driving licence when he signed an F1 contract few years ago ;)

[Porkhammer 78]

PaloSamo said:

Gordouxk said:

I'm perfectly calm. But I do find it curious that Sam keeps making references to RBR all the time. He never once made a reference to his real life driving experiences and how that compares to the game. I wonder if he's like Porkhammer in that he doesn't have a license and doesn't drive in real life. 

Porkhammer didn't say he never drove in real life. Better still, there is a Dutch fellow out there who didn't have a driving licence when he signed an F1 contract a few years ago ;)

I guess Gordo forgot to read that I have in fact, indeed, driven cars. Not at rally speed, but still. It's not exactly rocket science to drive a car.

[Gordouxk 0]

LittleApple said:

Defintely agree something is up when applying power. Seems like flooring it generates huge amounts of traction and grip. If stay light on the throttle you can feel wheelspin and more oversteer. Dgeesi0 i think is onto something about traction control assists being stuck on. It defintely feels like it especially whenever i step in a heavier 4WD car ingame.

What you are experiencing there is the tyres digging in and spinning freely. It feels like traction control because the car isn't going anywhere while the throttle is on. It actually feels very similar in real life where the tyres that spin in soft gravel feel like there made of wood. You're hitting the rev limiter and going nowhere. Check your replay in the game when this happens, you'll find that the tyres are spinning. 

[Gordouxk 0]

Porkhammer said:

PaloSamo said:

Gordouxk said:

I'm perfectly calm. But I do find it curious that Sam keeps making references to RBR all the time. He never once made a reference to his real life driving experiences and how that compares to the game. I wonder if he's like Porkhammer in that he doesn't have a license and doesn't drive in real life. 

Porkhammer didn't say he never drove in real life. Better still, there is a Dutch fellow out there who didn't have a driving licence when he signed an F1 contract a few years ago ;)

I guess Gordo forgot to read that I have in fact, indeed, driven cars. Not at rally speed, but still. It's not exactly rocket science to drive a car.

It doesn't matter. Nobody seems to care that I've driven an actual group n rally car through a five kilometre gravel stage at 170 plus kph through fifth gear sweepers on many occasions. Nobody cares that I've been driving on dirt since primary school. Nobody cares that I live in the mountains through which I've driven at 160 plus kph on many occasions. Nobody cares that once I came home with 3 wheels on my wagon because I tried to drift and I hit a pole with my right rear which ripped the wheel completely off ( yeah you can laugh).
Nobody cares when I say that these easy, lazy easily controlled slides at over 100 kph are the stuff of video games and not a reflection of real life. In fact it's pretty clear that I'm not wanted here. After all what right have I got to mess with people's fantasies.

[Madhun1967 51]

^ so you can do a 5th gear sweeper at 170 ,what we can't do in game and I assume you're not a Rally driver by trade !??

[Gordouxk 0]

Madhun1967 said:

^ so you can do a 5th gear sweeper at 170 ,what we can't do in game and I assume you're not a Rally driver by trade !??

I can trundle through a 5th gear sweeper at 170 as if on rails and maybe with a tiny bit of oversteer. But to drift through it with the rear hanging out and with on-throttle oversteer? No way. Maybe if I had a thousand attempts at the same corner eventually I'd get it, but if you think that you can get into a rally car and get it past 100 and just chuck it around and drift it through 5th gear sweepers neatly and effortlessly you are very much mistaken. 

[Madhun1967 51]

Gordouxk,
this is a game /sim ,we could throw a car around on screen without any fears ,unlike in real life .Unfortunatley it's I'm possible to keep a drift or sustain a slide under power as of right now :(

[SamRWD 2]

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

[Gordouxk 0]

SamRWD said:

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet.

[Gordouxk 0]

Madhun1967 said:

Gordouxk,
this is a game /sim ,we could throw a car around on screen without any fears ,unlike in real life .Unfortunatley it's I'm possible to keep a drift or sustain a slide under power as of right now :(

Indeed, and in this game I can do lots of things that I would not even dream of attempting in real life. Still it's a mistake to assume that in real life you would be able to powerslide through bends in fifth gear. Maybe eventually with lots of practice you would, but I assure you, it would not be as easy and effortless as you think, and it would require a massive amount of skill. Plus the stage on which I drove was about twice as wide as anything in Dirt 4, quite smooth and flat, and there were several slower places where I flew off without damaging the car because there was a lot of run off. So the theory that the only reason you can't do it is because of the danger doesn't have a massive amount of merit. It's just hard to do the things that are often easy to do in games. It's as simple as that. And some games are harder than real life but for the wrong reasons. 

[griev0r 15]

Gordouxk said:

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet. You definitely would not interact with me this way in real life. Trust me. 

Whoaaa, not only are you a rally physics expert, but an MMA fighter as well?  Damn, you never fail to amaze dude.  If the game is so perfect go play it and have fun, stop arguing with every statement made in this thread.  Even if CM change things to make it better, just put on Stability and Traction control and you should be back in your comfort zone you love and defend so much.

[SamRWD 2]

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet. You definitely would not interact with me this way in real life. Trust me. 

It is time you get banned again. You cannot stand facts, you cannot take criticism, you cannot stand being exposed. This thread is about improving D4, you did nothing to add to our discussion. Maybe apart from providing a little bit of amusement for us. You had your chance back in Headbong days, but you won't fool us again. I hope mods check appropate IP's.

[Fizzlenog 6]

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet. You definitely would not interact with me this way in real life. Trust me. 

It is time you get banned again. You cannot stand facts, you cannot take criticism, you cannot stand being exposed. This thread is about improving D4, you did nothing to add to our discussion. Maybe apart from providing a little bit of amusement for us. You had your chance back in Headbong days, but you won't fool us again. I hope mods check appropate IP's.

You are not here to improve anything. You are here to win an argument with me, plain and simple. This is absolutely unbelievable; you have a guy here with loads of real driving experience, including a rally car, and instead of picking my brains and try to maybe learn something you're fighting the battle of your life to get me banned. It's very said, actually. 

If you are just going to attack people on their opinion you need to leave. The fact is rally takes skill to control oversteer and understand how much are car will grip while sliding. The issue is this game is way to easy to go completely flat out. The gravel feels like tarmac. Now to get back on track we need to start making a list of cars with a 1-10 rating on how good they drive even though every car needs at least a small tweak.

[Gordouxk 0]

Fizzlenog said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet. You definitely would not interact with me this way in real life. Trust me. 

It is time you get banned again. You cannot stand facts, you cannot take criticism, you cannot stand being exposed. This thread is about improving D4, you did nothing to add to our discussion. Maybe apart from providing a little bit of amusement for us. You had your chance back in Headbong days, but you won't fool us again. I hope mods check appropate IP's.

You are not here to improve anything. You are here to win an argument with me, plain and simple. This is absolutely unbelievable; you have a guy here with loads of real driving experience, including a rally car, and instead of picking my brains and try to maybe learn something you're fighting the battle of your life to get me banned. It's very said, actually. 

If you are just going to attack people on their opinion you need to leave. The fact is rally takes skill to control oversteer and understand how much are car will grip while sliding. The issue is this game is way to easy to go completely flat out. The gravel feels like tarmac. Now to get back on track we need to start making a list of cars with a 1-10 rating on how good they drive even though every car needs at least a small tweak.

What is it with you guys and trying to get me to leave and to get me banned? Its very obvious that you're not here to learn anything; you're here seeking confirmation that what you believe is true. The key word here is "believe". So if you want to put your fingers in your ears and not listen to what I have to say, you're welcome to skip right over my posts and to stop responding to anything I say, and I will reciprocate. 

[bogani 756]

Gordouxk said:

LittleApple said:

Defintely agree something is up when applying power. Seems like flooring it generates huge amounts of traction and grip. If stay light on the throttle you can feel wheelspin and more oversteer. Dgeesi0 i think is onto something about traction control assists being stuck on. It defintely feels like it especially whenever i step in a heavier 4WD car ingame.

What you are experiencing there is the tyres digging in and spinning freely. It feels like traction control because the car isn't going anywhere while the throttle is on. It actually feels very similar in real life where the tyres that spin in soft gravel feel like there made of wood. You're hitting the rev limiter and going nowhere. Check your replay in the game when this happens, you'll find that the tyres are spinning. 

F
 Digging in and spinning freely? Are you serious? If you threw on the hardest, crappiest standard roadtire that's been in the shed for twenty years, well yes. No real competition tire will dig in and spin freely, resulting in you going nowhere on the surfaces D4 offer.

Are you really educating people here now too? Waw you've come a long way since you believed toe-in equals better turn in response.

[PaloSamo 0]

It is a truly astonishing coincidence that Gordouxk joined this forum shortly after Headlong was banned. And a couple of his first posts were either liked or agreed to by Headlong himself :)
Yes, this post is off topic but I have headaches from going round in circles with this thread.

[Gordouxk 0]

fab1701 said:

Atm this is my Mk2 setup:

(Front) Toe Angle: 0.20°
(Front) Camber Angle: -2.40°

Braking Force: 2572.00Nm
Brake Bias: 54%

(Rear) LSD Driving Lock: 32%
(Rear) LSD Braking Lock: 16%
(Rear) LSD Preload: 40.00Nm

(Front) Slow Bump: -2.00
(Front) Slow Rebound: +1.00
(Rear) Slow Bump: -1.00
(Rear) Slow Rebound: +2.00

(Front) Ride Height: 0.00mm
(Front) Spring Rate: 61.68N/mm
(Front) Anti-Roll Bar: 12.73N/mm
(Rear) Ride Height: 0.00mm
(Rear) Spring Rate: 31.64N/mm
(Rear) Anti-Roll Bar: 0.00N/mm

I'm not claiming that this makes everything perfect, but I think this might be the way to go. The idea I'm going after is to make the grip on all wheels as progressive as possible. Thats done by keeping all wheels in contact with the road, even in extreme situations. In case the car feels still too snappy for your liking try firming up the front a bit. If thats creating too much understeer, give it a bit more toe-out, instead of toe-in like it is now. If instead the oversteer feels still too weak, increase the front softness even further. Maybe front spring rate to around 55N/mm and anti-roll bar to 5N/mm or something. Braking is reduced and set to around 50% bias to further help with consistency. I tested my setup in wales and australia.

EDIT: Played around again and for really aggressive driving i would suggest my setting with the following changes:
(Front) Toe Angle: -0.20°
(Front) Spring Rate: 55.95N/mm
(Front) Anti-Roll Bar: 5.45N/mm

I've tried your exact setup and indeed, it does what you say. Plenty of on-throttle oversteer and very controllable. I'm not convinced about the brake bias all the way to the rear but either way it works great. I've also tried a similar setup on the Abarth131 and that was absolutely sublime. I haven't had this much fun with a sim in a long time. 

[gheeD 15]

Went to see Neuville drive 2017 wrc this weekend, but there was also Mikko Hirvonen driving his escort in the historic class. How amazing it was to see hirvonen fly past sideways on a high speed corner putting the car in nice controlled slide and actually see how the cockpit was full of hands, as they say. It was amazing day and physics worked flawlessly on the cars :wink: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/keeperineri/35132823313/

edit: i hope we will get some onboards from his drive soon. atleast looks like he had gopro on LOL

[hawku0 0]

Gordouxk said:

Fizzlenog said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

Gordouxk said:

SamRWD said:

OK, so you really got some experience since those 3 driving lessons. Three more, and maybe you will actually do some driving and start making some sense. Group N:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgMgySLu0CI
EDIT: BTW back in DR days I've dealt with dozens of fake rally drivers on forums. Reality is not dependent on ones wishes and missconceptions.
EDIT2: Another one with telemetry:
https://youtu.be/eIgz7TF9UCQ

I'd suggest you change your tone with me young man. The way you've interacted with me on this forum from the beginning has been nothing short of rude and disrespectful. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're only behaving this way from behind the screen on the Internet. You definitely would not interact with me this way in real life. Trust me. 

It is time you get banned again. You cannot stand facts, you cannot take criticism, you cannot stand being exposed. This thread is about improving D4, you did nothing to add to our discussion. Maybe apart from providing a little bit of amusement for us. You had your chance back in Headbong days, but you won't fool us again. I hope mods check appropate IP's.

You are not here to improve anything. You are here to win an argument with me, plain and simple. This is absolutely unbelievable; you have a guy here with loads of real driving experience, including a rally car, and instead of picking my brains and try to maybe learn something you're fighting the battle of your life to get me banned. It's very said, actually. 

If you are just going to attack people on their opinion you need to leave. The fact is rally takes skill to control oversteer and understand how much are car will grip while sliding. The issue is this game is way to easy to go completely flat out. The gravel feels like tarmac. Now to get back on track we need to start making a list of cars with a 1-10 rating on how good they drive even though every car needs at least a small tweak.

What is it with you guys and trying to get me to leave and to get me banned? Its very obvious that you're not here to learn anything; you're here seeking confirmation that what you believe is true. The key word here is "believe". So if you want to put your fingers in your ears and not listen to what I have to say, you're welcome to skip right over my posts and to stop responding to anything I say, and I will reciprocate. 

You haven't provided any data to confirm your claims. How does that makes your word anything more than a "belief"?

People have posted multiple different videos with telemetry which shows much lower overall forces on real rally cars vs Dirt 4's cars. Many of those videos shows that cars can sustain a manageable oversteer while cornering.
I have posted telemetry outputs from the Dirt 4 where the data shows that cars on Dirt 4 stop faster on gravel than a Le Mans Prototype cars on tarmac.

It is the time you to provide the data which shows that the Dirt 4's physics are correct and stop arguing the feelings of how the real life car handles.

The point of this thread is to give Codemasters constructive feedback. Every simulator developer is constantly looking for more real life data to make the simulation better, so we should give Codemasters more data!

[Porkhammer 78]

                                                                                                                                                 

[Madhun1967 51]

Guys !!!!
we are all here for the same thing ,to try to get most out of our experience with the title and enjoy it in our free time .
I think we all agree it could be much better and it's frustrating we arent getting answers yet .I do think ,that we are doing  a great job of detective work and brainstorming to try to make the game feel better .
Tons of smart individuals in here to try to figure out what may be going on or NOT in the game.Also as lot of us are doing this in our  precious free time ,let's have respect for all and hope for the best .
I ,for one can only get to my "man cave " 2-3 a week for an hour or two at a time .Unfortunatley this way ,it will take me a long time to try and troubleshoot all the concerns I have.One thing I enjoy coming back here for is to try peoples setups and see if what can be changed in the feel of the driving .
So if we can just keep this constructive ,I think we'll all be better off in the long run and will be hopefully enjoying a true "sim"

[fab1701 0]

hawku0 said:

[...]

I have posted telemetry outputs from the Dirt 4 where the data shows that cars on Dirt 4 stop faster on gravel than a Le Mans Prototype cars on tarmac.

It is the time you to provide the data which shows that the Dirt 4's physics are correct and stop arguing the feelings of how the real life car handles.

[...]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, not trying to diminish your point, but I don't see that the braking is that far off from RL tbh. After all, we have absolutely no data about what is actually realistic in these conditions, like you say is necessary. What we really need is a set of real data that supports this. The videos posted with telemetry are fine, nothing wrong about them, but the issue is, that those drivers never brake at full capacity or to a full stop, because you don't do it when you're racing. Also, they're driving very smoothly to be fast and therefore the g-forces shown in the telemetry might not be the maximum ones that can occur.
The best data we have so far, derives from the videos I posted a while ago, where I calculated a maximum deceleration of 1g from. And keep in mind that these were bakkies with ABS and a modified Iveco truck, which is still far off from the capabilities of a lightweight rally car.

Here is a video from the Team O'Neil rally school about braking, that describes many things to keep in mind about different braking techniques in general and on loose surfaces (It's quite long though, but the important part about gravel comes straight ahead at 5:00 to at least 11:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49TxR4-K90
 
At 10:20 he makes a guess about braking distances on gravel. Granted, this again is not the data we are looking for, because he himself says that this isn't necessarily correct, but the funny thing is, that 80mph to 0mph in 100m would lead to a deceleration of around 1.32g (EDIT: it's 0.65g). I think the median g-forces in Dirt 4 under braking on gravel are about 1.4+ g atm like the telemetry shows? Not a huge difference imo, even considering that I'm not quite sure if he means road cars in general or actually high performing rally vehicles in the video.

[hawku0 0]

fab1701 said:

hawku0 said:

[...]

I have posted telemetry outputs from the Dirt 4 where the data shows that cars on Dirt 4 stop faster on gravel than a Le Mans Prototype cars on tarmac.

It is the time you to provide the data which shows that the Dirt 4's physics are correct and stop arguing the feelings of how the real life car handles.

[...]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, not trying to diminish your point, but I don't see that the braking is that far off from RL tbh. After all, we have absolutely no data about what is actually realistic in these conditions, like you say is necessary. What we really need is a set of real data that supports this. The videos posted with telemetry are fine, nothing wrong about them, but the issue is, that those drivers never brake at full capacity or to a full stop, because you don't do it when you're racing. Also, they're driving very smoothly to be fast and therefore the g-forces shown in the telemetry might not be the maximum ones that can occur.
The best data we have so far, derives from the videos I posted a while ago, where I calculated a maximum deceleration of 1g from. And keep in mind that these were bakkies with ABS and a modified Iveco truck, which is still far off from the capabilities of a lightweight rally car.

Here is a video from the Team O'Neil rally school about braking, that describes many things to keep in mind about different braking techniques in general and on loose surfaces (It's quite long though, but the important part about gravel comes straight ahead at 5:00 to at least 11:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49TxR4-K90
 
At 10:20 he makes a guess about braking distances on gravel. Granted, this again is not the data we are looking for, because he himself says that this isn't necessarily correct, but the funny thing is, that 80mph to 0mph in 100m would lead to a deceleration of around 1.32g. I think the median g-forces in Dirt 4 under braking on gravel are about 1.4+ g atm like the telemetry shows? Not a huge difference imo, even considering that I'm not quite sure if he means road cars in general or actually high performing rally vehicles in the video.

I don't know how you calculated the 1.32 g's, but the more correct number would be around 0.65 g's, if the stopping distance from 80 mph to 0 is 100 meters and the deacceleration is constant.
Stopping distance from 60 mph to 0 is between 20 and 25 meters in Dirt 4.

If anybody still thinks that cars should stop faster on gravel than on asphalt, then you should read this:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf
Of course the cars on that test aren't rally cars, but difference of grip still shouldn't be reversed.

[OnorinoDiTanna 0]

hawku0 said:

fab1701 said:

hawku0 said:

[...]

I have posted telemetry outputs from the Dirt 4 where the data shows that cars on Dirt 4 stop faster on gravel than a Le Mans Prototype cars on tarmac.

It is the time you to provide the data which shows that the Dirt 4's physics are correct and stop arguing the feelings of how the real life car handles.

[...]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, not trying to diminish your point, but I don't see that the braking is that far off from RL tbh. After all, we have absolutely no data about what is actually realistic in these conditions, like you say is necessary. What we really need is a set of real data that supports this. The videos posted with telemetry are fine, nothing wrong about them, but the issue is, that those drivers never brake at full capacity or to a full stop, because you don't do it when you're racing. Also, they're driving very smoothly to be fast and therefore the g-forces shown in the telemetry might not be the maximum ones that can occur.
The best data we have so far, derives from the videos I posted a while ago, where I calculated a maximum deceleration of 1g from. And keep in mind that these were bakkies with ABS and a modified Iveco truck, which is still far off from the capabilities of a lightweight rally car.

Here is a video from the Team O'Neil rally school about braking, that describes many things to keep in mind about different braking techniques in general and on loose surfaces (It's quite long though, but the important part about gravel comes straight ahead at 5:00 to at least 11:00):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49TxR4-K90
 
At 10:20 he makes a guess about braking distances on gravel. Granted, this again is not the data we are looking for, because he himself says that this isn't necessarily correct, but the funny thing is, that 80mph to 0mph in 100m would lead to a deceleration of around 1.32g. I think the median g-forces in Dirt 4 under braking on gravel are about 1.4+ g atm like the telemetry shows? Not a huge difference imo, even considering that I'm not quite sure if he means road cars in general or actually high performing rally vehicles in the video.

I don't know how you calculated the 1.32 g's, but the more correct number would be around 0.65 g's, if the stopping distance from 80 mph to 0 is 100 meters and the deacceleration is constant.
Stopping distance from 60 mph to 0 is between 20 and 25 meters in Dirt 4.

If anybody still thinks that cars should stop faster on gravel than on asphalt, then you should read this:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf
Of course the cars on that test aren't rally cars, but difference of grip still shouldn't be reversed.

I can confirm that, with the posted data, the average deceleration is about 0.65g (realistic value for gravel, maybe a bit too low if you consider the aero drag contribution).

Anyway the d4 grip is greatly exagerated on all the surfaces and seems to increase even more while sliding.

[Slowish 0]

There are a few ways this can go as I see it:

• CM can refine the default setups - perhaps satisfying some Sim players
  
• CM can diagnose and solve some deeper underlying issues related to physics / assists / data, etc. - perhaps resulting in something more realistic between DR and the current D4 handling , something I suspect many of us would enjoy
  
• CM can follow Headlong's (aka Gordouxk) advice and leave things as they are

The latter solution would result in my deleting D4 from my PC but, it would no doubt leave them with a couple of very happy customers in Headlong and Gordouxk.