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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Porkhammer. Google is your friend. Its all there too see.

Power steering and abs were the first obviously, if the base car had them the rally car did lol. Power steering itself is almost 70 years old, in the early 2000's several hydraulic aids were already being used.

Couple this with drivers being able to set the speed of the steering rack to their choosing and all the other aids and what you're left with is the impression that the car has less grip than it actually does

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That's strange, I remember clearly several instances during the 2000 and 2001 seasons where drivers locked their brakes and lost control as a result. You are certain of ABS?

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Yep. Abs isn't a win button like they portray in games. You can easily lock up with abs. 

When you introduce worn tyres, rough terain, wet, high-speed abs has a hard time coping. Although don't think its the same abs as in normal cars, its vastly more efficient

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dgeesi0 said:
Scyy said:
So after messing with setups over the weekend I got the 2001 Impreza to turn into a power sliding machine. I'm gonna upload at least one or two videos tonight of just how loose the rear can get. Still requires a bit of setup in the corner but otherwise feels great. Some cars definitely need more work than others as I still can't get the 95 Subaru to do anything but understeer right now. Getting a good setup for that car is going to be my goal tonight.
could you make sure to share it.wanna try this sliding subaru :)
So here is the video. I could have sworn I saved an even better one but can't find it in my shadow play folder. So I'm not driving in it to explicitly slide, it's just me driving a stage normally but I can make the car behave like it does in the slidier corners consistently.

https://youtu.be/OOafksBG8xE
This was on an older setup too so I'm gonna try and get a recording tonight of my later setup.

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Look at 2:10. Do you see how the car only slide for 20 feet or so before the rear stops sliding and the front then pushes heavy to the outside?

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ShodanCat said:
Look at 2:10. Do you see how the car only slide for 20 feet or so before the rear stops sliding and the front then pushes heavy to the outside?
While this was last night so I don't recall exactly how it all happened but I was also changing my steering and throttle and brake inputs to pull out of the slide as anything more is wasted time. As I said this wasn't the final setup and it's still much better than stock. The issue is still there but it's much less pronounced.

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I managed to find an oversteery(ish) setup for the M3. I still had to really throw the car around for the rear to step out, but hey... at least there wasn't much understeer. I recorded this little adventure as well. Uploading soon.

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The M3 is definitely the best RWD car (in terms of physics) IMO. In the Daily yesterday it was definitely more than happy to kick the tail out from throttle alone.

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I managed to find an oversteery(ish) setup for the M3. I still had to really throw the car around for the rear to step out, but hey... at least there wasn't much understeer. I recorded this little adventure as well. Uploading soon.
Looking forward to watching it. And yes, in real life you often do actually have to do something quite drastic to get the rear to step out. 

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ShodanCat said:
The M3 is definitely the best RWD car (in terms of physics) IMO. In the Daily yesterday it was definitely more than happy to kick the tail out from throttle alone.
Still felt very understeery to me, hence the setup tweaks. Maybe it's because of my driving style being sketchy.

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Headlong said:
in real life you often do actually have to do something quite drastic to get the rear to step out. 
I beg to differ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYOXzXS_9kk

A small provoke with the wheel and hard throttle should always be enough for any rear wheel drive rally car, but it requires a lot more than that in Dirt 4.

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Headlong said:
I managed to find an oversteery(ish) setup for the M3. I still had to really throw the car around for the rear to step out, but hey... at least there wasn't much understeer. I recorded this little adventure as well. Uploading soon.
Looking forward to watching it. And yes, in real life you often do actually have to do something quite drastic to get the rear to step out. 
Have you ever driven a RWD anything in gravel before? You just floor it around a turn and you'll kick the rear end out. It should not be that difficult.

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnyway.

M3, Michigan. What's up with the shadows? Is it because I run them on medium?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF9EpSjsJ8o

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Headlong said:
in real life you often do actually have to do something quite drastic to get the rear to step out. 
I beg to differ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYOXzXS_9kk

A small provoke with the wheel and hard throttle should always be enough for any rear wheel drive rally car, but it requires a lot more than that in Dirt 4.
Not always, but yes you're right. But provoking oversteer can be very easy in D4 with rear wheel drive as well. For example just now I've driven the Lancia 037 group B car in Australia and the oversteer was so massive that it was possible to flick the car into actute hairpins without the handbrake and with minimal braking. Going round long radius corners required constant corrections to keep the rear from stepping out too much and I found myself constantly stabbing the throttle to shift the weight to the rear and kill the excessive oversteer.  This is exactly what happens in real life, so I don't know what you guys want.

Note: I didn't drive this car on the default setting. I made the following changes:

front toe toe in by a couple of clicks

Front camber more nagative by about 3 clicks

rear toe out by a couple of clicks

brake bias toward the rear by a click.

a more open rear LSd.

shorter gear ratios

firmer rear anti roll bar.

If you're still finding it difficult to induce oversteer with nothing more than a flick of the wheel there is something wrong with your game I think. 

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https://youtu.be/EWBOKD6fGu0 

pork wanna make a vid replicating this while im at work?  :D escort mkII at michigan pls

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gheeD said:
https://youtu.be/EWBOKD6fGu0 

pork wanna make a vid replicating this while im at work?  :D escort mkII at michigan pls
I wish... very much!

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Hayden Paddon handling an Escort BDA RWD like a boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqx9cH_r9ig&t=68s

And also on a 4WD I20 Hyundai, similar spec to WRC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PScjE2GuZbw&t=147s

In the RWD video, I can see that he in only steering in at entry but mid corner and exit is mostly controlled through counter steering.

And in 4WD video, he induces a lot of oversteer as well mid corner even though he exits the corners quite straight. You can also see a lot of his inputs.

I know Hayden Paddon is one of the most sideways drivers out there and not many people drive like him. In DR you could also do that, drive in your own style dictated by how you give your, sideways or straight is up to you and is possible with default setup on most cars.

But even the most straight driving rallyists (like Loeb for example) are only straight on exit, mid corner they induce oversteer and hold the slide to the exit all the time. This is not simulated too well in D4 yet.

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gheeD said:
https://youtu.be/EWBOKD6fGu0 

pork wanna make a vid replicating this while im at work?  :D escort mkII at michigan pls
Don't you know that +250bhp rwd combined with modern tyres is not going to power-oversteer..?  :)

For those who doesn't know how grippy Finnish gravel roads are, the surface is not called "torpparin tarmakki" (Farmers tarmac in english) without a good reason. 

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gheeD said:
Apologies for posting such a unrealistic video  :* 

Shame on you. I bet he just had completely worn out tyres, an extreme setup towards oversteer and spectators were throwing loose gravel onto the road to make his driving look more spectacular.  ;)

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gheeD said:
Apologies for posting such a unrealistic video  :* 


What game is that. It look arcade next to DiRT 4. o:) o:)

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battfinkz said:
What you have to keep in mind guys is alot of the cars featured in D4 are from pre 2011. Back then it was fair game to have a shed load of driver assists. Petter Solberg helped with the handling model for D4, for the vast majority of his career, including his wins, alot of assists were still allowed

In 2004 for example the cars had ABS, clutch control, paddle shift, traction control, active differentials, ride height control with GPS, electronic dampers and active suspension. Having all that tech was fabulous but the cost was high and it was making it too easy for drivers. You could launch the cars with a button press.

There was a big debate between manufacturers about the regulation changes. Citroen wanted to keep things like the central diff and VW wanted the paddle shift. In the end they banned them and it went back to mechanical in 2011.

They have allowed some of the assists back into the wrc since by relaxing the regs, im guessing the physics model in D4 takes all this into account, i could be wrong though, just my opinion

Please show me some links which shows that the WRC-car had this aids. I am pretty sure there was no ABS or traction control. Yes, the active diffs made the cars easier and smoother to drive, short-steering to make the steering input shorter, the paddle-shift meant that you didn't have to clutch and there was active suspension you could see on inboards being used - but ABS and traction control, no. That would ruin any feeling with the car out on the stages.

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Benniz said:
battfinkz said:
What you have to keep in mind guys is alot of the cars featured in D4 are from pre 2011. Back then it was fair game to have a shed load of driver assists. Petter Solberg helped with the handling model for D4, for the vast majority of his career, including his wins, alot of assists were still allowed

In 2004 for example the cars had ABS, clutch control, paddle shift, traction control, active differentials, ride height control with GPS, electronic dampers and active suspension. Having all that tech was fabulous but the cost was high and it was making it too easy for drivers. You could launch the cars with a button press.

There was a big debate between manufacturers about the regulation changes. Citroen wanted to keep things like the central diff and VW wanted the paddle shift. In the end they banned them and it went back to mechanical in 2011.

They have allowed some of the assists back into the wrc since by relaxing the regs, im guessing the physics model in D4 takes all this into account, i could be wrong though, just my opinion

Please show me some links which shows that the WRC-car had this aids. I am pretty sure there was no ABS or traction control. Yes, the active diffs made the cars easier and smoother to drive, short-steering to make the steering input shorter, the paddle-shift meant that you didn't have to clutch and there was active suspension you could see on inboards being used - but ABS and traction control, no. That would ruin any feeling with the car out on the stages.
That is actually straight quote from Christian Loriaux and most likely is true but it could've been just the 2004 cars. FIA revised the rules mid 2000's and these systems might have been on the table back then..

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Got this article from wikipedia after quick google about 2004 wrc regulations. https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/feature/2115718/ford-technical-director-explains-low-tech-approach-wrc-cars

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I've been using my google-fu to find some articles about it because it got me interested.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1067669_why-the-world-rally-championship-has-gone-low-tech


Instead, Ford is competing in a Fiesta, Citroen in its DS3, Volkswagen is due soon with a Polo, and even MINI has returned to the sport with the Countryman. Much of the technology has disappeared, with no ABS, clutch control, paddle shift transmission, traction control, active differentials, ride height control with GPS and more.

Also on the banned list are expensive materials like carbon fiber, magnesium and ceramics. In common with road cars, engines have been downsized too, from 2.0-liters to 1.6-liters.


Also:
http://crazyleo.net/2010/09/the-new-world-rally-car-should-rock/
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Interview-with-Christian-Loriaux,17762.html
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9225&start=15





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