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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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World Rally Cross footage with telemetry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcoHa4jBhOM

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I really miss this, both in DR and D4 - cars struggling to get the power down off the startline.

Oh and the oversteer is nice to behold as well, even though the dude is hardly pushing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztuTBhgX1hg

Look how slow real life seems compared to the game.  As you say, it takes ages to get off the line & up to pace & braking is something that needs work & forward planning.  Look how much correction is required to keep the car on the stage too.  

Quite a nice stage, looks fun! :)

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KevM said:
I really miss this, both in DR and D4 - cars struggling to get the power down off the startline.

Oh and the oversteer is nice to behold as well, even though the dude is hardly pushing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztuTBhgX1hg

Look how slow real life seems compared to the game.  As you say, it takes ages to get off the line & up to pace & braking is something that needs work & forward planning.  Look how much correction is required to keep the car on the stage too.  

Quite a nice stage, looks fun! :)
Playing DR in VR has a similar sense of speed; it feels much slower in VR than on monitors.

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Slowish said:
KevM said:
I really miss this, both in DR and D4 - cars struggling to get the power down off the startline.

Oh and the oversteer is nice to behold as well, even though the dude is hardly pushing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztuTBhgX1hg

Look how slow real life seems compared to the game.  As you say, it takes ages to get off the line & up to pace & braking is something that needs work & forward planning.  Look how much correction is required to keep the car on the stage too.  

Quite a nice stage, looks fun! :)
Playing DR in VR has a similar sense of speed; it feels much slower in VR than on monitors.


Agreed. DR in VR did make things appear slower paced.


I have mixed opinions on the physics/handling debate but wanted to point out two "first impressions" I had when watching that Lancia video. One, the FOV looks a bit on the narrow side which typically makes movement appear slower. And secondly, the car in the video seems to handle very much like the one in game (in my opinion). Wasn't that the car that as in a Daily a few days ago?

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Subaru WRX Sti on snow with telemetry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6MpPkEEzuU
~1 g's on cambered corners. ~0.7 g's while braking on straight and flat road.

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3:19, magic hand of god combined with "impossible" braking distances. 

/E: Not that I don't think something's off.

It just a proof that there's a lot going right on spot in current iteration of the simulation engine.
I'm starting to think the physics are alright, it's just the tyre simulation that's lacking... :( 

And we all know that's a one for future. 


/E2: Considering the data they got from tyre company in RX comparing to rally that would be the most probable outcome. 
Let's hope some of the data can be transfered into the rally side. :) Even though it wouldn't be as much "realistic" as some would hope for. We got to balance it I guess. 


https://youtu.be/y6MpPkEEzuU




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versedi said:
3:19, magic hand of god combined with "impossible" braking distances. 
He starts braking at 117 km/h and enters the corner at 44 km/h.
117 km/h time is 03:22.360 and frame 5059.
44 km/h time is 03:26.720 and frame 5168.
It took 4.36 seconds to lose 73 km/h. That translates to ~44 meters and 0.47 g's, which is almost 3 times slower than Dirt 4's deceleration rate on snow.
If the driver had the tires from the Dirt 4, he could have started braking ~1.5 seconds and ~15 meters before entering the corner. 

Example of Dirt 4's braking time and distance on snow:
https://youtu.be/tTOiHCh3ctc?t=2m20s

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Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

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Narzugon said:
Slowish said:
KevM said:
I really miss this, both in DR and D4 - cars struggling to get the power down off the startline.

Oh and the oversteer is nice to behold as well, even though the dude is hardly pushing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztuTBhgX1hg

Look how slow real life seems compared to the game.  As you say, it takes ages to get off the line & up to pace & braking is something that needs work & forward planning.  Look how much correction is required to keep the car on the stage too.  

Quite a nice stage, looks fun! :)
Playing DR in VR has a similar sense of speed; it feels much slower in VR than on monitors.


Agreed. DR in VR did make things appear slower paced.


I have mixed opinions on the physics/handling debate but wanted to point out two "first impressions" I had when watching that Lancia video. One, the FOV looks a bit on the narrow side which typically makes movement appear slower. And secondly, the car in the video seems to handle very much like the one in game (in my opinion). Wasn't that the car that as in a Daily a few days ago?

I was actually suprised by how he drives it on stage much like how I drive it in D4. 

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im hoping that people also notice the gears as hes on snow and how hes driving it.not dropping it to max revs.in higher gear for eg. ;)

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bogani said:
I really miss this, both in DR and D4 - cars struggling to get the power down off the startline.

Oh and the oversteer is nice to behold as well, even though the dude is hardly pushing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztuTBhgX1hg

Indeed. The most enjoyable one to get off the line like this is the Fiat 131 in Dirt Rally. In D4 you can hsrdly get any wheelspin with it :(

The Stratos seems to be a tricky car IRL. The engine placement truly gives great traction in the rear - up to a certain point. DR was much closer to behave like this imo.
Stratos was my fav car in DR. So fun to drive, and so rewarding when you got it right.
Its boring as hell in D4.
These default setups stink. So unbelievably dull and lifeless to drive. I don't understand their decision with this.

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Hi guys,

I've been following the thread for a little while now, as a disgruntled and disappointed fan of rally titles. Needless to say I am not alone. Just wanted to share my 2 cents. I have spent a fair while with D4 lately, after refunding my pre order on Steam, I re bought the game to give it another shot after having some further time with it elsewhere. I have to say that the more I sink time into the rally stages, the more I seem to understand what I can and cannot do in regards to handling, how I throw the car around vs in DR (and to some extent, RBR). I have only stuck to a handful of cars for now, the 2001 Focus's and the Subi in the same class. They feel not bad once you get the tuning down, especially the 2007 Focus. I was having a blast with it tonight, holding slides through corners, dry and wet conditions. I nearly couldn't believe it. I have spent a lot of time in the Subi, and a quick spin in the Focus had a smile on my face. Sweden, too, you can actually feel the snow sticking under the tire in some sections, when it wants to dig in and grip as opposed to slide across the surface, or just hold firm once you hit the clear tarmac section. RallyX is another story again, as it feels a lot different, and it really shouldn't feel FUNDAMENTALLY different to the other rally cars, especially ones of the current era. Power, tires and tuning aside, we shouldn't feel as if one set of physics is from one title, and the other is from a different one.

Another MASSIVE thing that someone has pointed out also (probably more than one) is the the FFB settings ARE NOT the same as DR. You need to REDUCE the settings for tire force and self aligning torque. Everything else is subjective (and canned effect, from what I've read). I use 50 SAT and 65-70 tire force. Wheel strength at ZERO, and don't dampen your settings in your wheel properties either. Try it, changed the title for me to an extent. 

Long story short, I feel that there are fantastic aspects to the physics, that seem to be held back by a few little things, and also our perception of what it SHOULD feel like, coming from previous titles. I know I am echoing a lot of what already has been said, but as I visit daily to check up on what you guys are saying, I thought I'd drop my opinion in on it, for what it's worth.

I currently have over 200 hours in DR and around 20 in D4, probably the same in RBR (went to try that once I had heard how much content had been created for it). Full motion rig user with CSW V2, triples, simvibe, and VR. 

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https://youtu.be/10NnPYpssYw
Body is 7 characters too short. Body is 7 characters too short.

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I believe so. Performance seems to be R5, interior also looks like it. 

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LOL I just tried RBR because I got bored with waiting for D4 fixes, I wanted to try Fiesta 2017 WRC and Fiesta R5. And guess what- both also have that "hand of a God" understeer moments. Except it is happening when pushing the car to do a tight circle... on tarmac with gravel setup :) 
EDIT: Actually, I am done with D4 for now. In RBR you can feel how aero downfroce is graduate and how car is more slide happy when it is not pushed down by spoilers. D4 is just constant grip. You have fun gents, I will be back when we get any kind of announcement or patch. See ya!

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rbr is just old.people have rose tinted glasses.

i set top times in rbr and dirt rally was better.it doesnt matter what rally game comes out there will still be that guy " oh rbr is better " when it just isnt.

on a further note my friend is gunna make a mk2 escort video soon when his vehcile is finished.  :) tail happy ftw

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I think the Escort is pretty spot on in its physics. I've spent tonnes of time in this car and am pleased with where its at. (Base setup leaves allot to be desired).

I have serious doubts on the realism of the Mitsubishi Evolution X and the Evo IV. Both feel like they have too much grip/traction in even with maxing pre-load and setting up the car towards throttle oversteer.

Other cars i've tried lately feel and behave as i expect for a real rally car (Mitsubishi R5, Ford Focus 2007, Audi Quatro).

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Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.

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yoyoML said:
Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.
Except, we still don't know the realistic limit. Is it really .7g? .8? Or 1.2? Who knows we have no data to confirm that. Examples of less grip and g-forces can't disprove this unless it shows exactly the same car, on exactly the same surface with exactly the same conditions under the same inputs, namely heavy emergency braking. Comparing the video, sure there is a significant difference to most rl onboards. But is it always the same surface? I doubt that. Most rl footage features packed slippery snow and Dirt4s sweden looks half of the time more like normal gravel with a touch of snow for decoration (like that one hawku0 posted).

There is packed snow in dirt4 though and there should be less grip on that imo. If it's the same, like I think it is, then one could say its wrong that there is no difference. Question still remains though, how far it's really off.

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dgeesi0 said:
rbr is just old.people have rose tinted glasses.

i set top times in rbr and dirt rally was better.it doesnt matter what rally game comes out there will still be that guy " oh rbr is better " when it just isnt.
At least it has selection of tires and more realistic damage model (why are we still bringing RBR into table? Is it because it is the benchmark for rally games?)

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fab1701 said:
yoyoML said:
Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.
Except, we still don't know the realistic limit. Is it really .7g? .8? Or 1.2? Who knows we have no data to confirm that. Examples of less grip and g-forces can't disprove this unless it shows exactly the same car, on exactly the same surface with exactly the same conditions under the same inputs, namely heavy emergency braking. Comparing the video, sure there is a significant difference to most rl onboards. But is it always the same surface? I doubt that. Most rl footage features packed slippery snow and Dirt4s sweden looks half of the time more like normal gravel with a touch of snow for decoration (like that one hawku0 posted).

There is packed snow in dirt4 though and there should be less grip on that imo. If it's the same, like I think it is, then one could say its wrong that there is no difference. Question still remains though, how far it's really off.
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.


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obvious opinion plays a big part.each person will say differently but no i dont think rbr is the benchmark or best.some of it was decent some was no closer to real rally than mariokart.

Dirt rally was/is better.just no more content will be done for it.which is a shame as that modded and more tracks would be far better.

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U can't discuss the grip, if u didn't drive in VR, yet. That's true. That I know now.
Watch my thread, if interested:
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/54878/rally-makes-sense-only-in-vr

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KevM said:
fab1701 said:
yoyoML said:
Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.
Except, we still don't know the realistic limit. Is it really .7g? .8? Or 1.2? Who knows we have no data to confirm that. Examples of less grip and g-forces can't disprove this unless it shows exactly the same car, on exactly the same surface with exactly the same conditions under the same inputs, namely heavy emergency braking. Comparing the video, sure there is a significant difference to most rl onboards. But is it always the same surface? I doubt that. Most rl footage features packed slippery snow and Dirt4s sweden looks half of the time more like normal gravel with a touch of snow for decoration (like that one hawku0 posted).

There is packed snow in dirt4 though and there should be less grip on that imo. If it's the same, like I think it is, then one could say its wrong that there is no difference. Question still remains though, how far it's really off.
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.

Not true. Numbers are the first step. If they don't fit, then you can't make it feel real afterwards. Otherwise, if the numbers are accurate and it doesn't feel right, then there are only two reasons for this: First, the way it's translated is wrong (FFB), or second, our perception is wrong. Simple as that.

So looking at the braking distances as only one example: This has to have something to do with numbers and telemetry. You can't 'make' the distances 'feel' longer or shorter. They either are as long as in RL or not. And numbers are the only way we can measure it, because you can't measure feelings.

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