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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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fab1701 said:
KevM said:
fab1701 said:
yoyoML said:
Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.
Except, we still don't know the realistic limit. Is it really .7g? .8? Or 1.2? Who knows we have no data to confirm that. Examples of less grip and g-forces can't disprove this unless it shows exactly the same car, on exactly the same surface with exactly the same conditions under the same inputs, namely heavy emergency braking. Comparing the video, sure there is a significant difference to most rl onboards. But is it always the same surface? I doubt that. Most rl footage features packed slippery snow and Dirt4s sweden looks half of the time more like normal gravel with a touch of snow for decoration (like that one hawku0 posted).

There is packed snow in dirt4 though and there should be less grip on that imo. If it's the same, like I think it is, then one could say its wrong that there is no difference. Question still remains though, how far it's really off.
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.

Not true. Numbers are the first step. If they don't fit, then you can't make it feel real afterwards. Otherwise, if the numbers are accurate and it doesn't feel right, then there are only two reasons for this: First, the way it's translated is wrong (FFB), or second, our perception is wrong. Simple as that.

So looking at the braking distances as only one example: This has to have something to do with numbers and telemetry. You can't 'make' the distances 'feel' longer or shorter. They either are as long as in RL or not. And numbers are the only way we can measure it, because you can't measure feelings.
  . . . and yet, the numbers can be spot-on but, if it doesn't feel right - why play it? The numbers are part of the equation but, not the only part that matters. If numbers are what really matters, I can just play with a calculator for hours every day - no need for a Simulation.

These sort of discussions are not new in racing games - especially in Simulation. They have been taking place for decades already and there is a clear pattern emerging of where there is greater clarity in results. Comparison of D4 tarmac handling to other top Sim's shows some stark differences but, keep on ignoring those and maybe they will simply go away.

The numbers on tarmac are easier to compare and prove with a well established baseline having tighter margins, yet - you expect us to believe the numbers for dirt are quite credible; why? Are the numbers for D4 tarmac comparable to top Sim's? Because the handling sure isn't.

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Slowish said:
fab1701 said:
KevM said:
fab1701 said:
yoyoML said:
Braking in the video above looks really insane.
Just by watching it without knowing the speed, it looks like braking from maybe 50 km/h, but not +100 km/h.
Is this video with or without ABS?

Dirt 4 brakes about 70% harder than real life (-100km/h over 2.4 sec vs 0.7G, do the math). No ABS can do that. It's ridiculous.
Except, we still don't know the realistic limit. Is it really .7g? .8? Or 1.2? Who knows we have no data to confirm that. Examples of less grip and g-forces can't disprove this unless it shows exactly the same car, on exactly the same surface with exactly the same conditions under the same inputs, namely heavy emergency braking. Comparing the video, sure there is a significant difference to most rl onboards. But is it always the same surface? I doubt that. Most rl footage features packed slippery snow and Dirt4s sweden looks half of the time more like normal gravel with a touch of snow for decoration (like that one hawku0 posted).

There is packed snow in dirt4 though and there should be less grip on that imo. If it's the same, like I think it is, then one could say its wrong that there is no difference. Question still remains though, how far it's really off.
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.

Not true. Numbers are the first step. If they don't fit, then you can't make it feel real afterwards. Otherwise, if the numbers are accurate and it doesn't feel right, then there are only two reasons for this: First, the way it's translated is wrong (FFB), or second, our perception is wrong. Simple as that.

So looking at the braking distances as only one example: This has to have something to do with numbers and telemetry. You can't 'make' the distances 'feel' longer or shorter. They either are as long as in RL or not. And numbers are the only way we can measure it, because you can't measure feelings.
  . . . and yet, the numbers can be spot-on but, if it doesn't feel right - why play it? The numbers are part of the equation but, not the only part that matters. If numbers are what really matters, I can just play with a calculator for hours every day - no need for a Simulation.

These sort of discussions are not new in racing games - especially in Simulation. They have been taking place for decades already and there is a clear pattern emerging of where there is greater clarity in results. Comparison of D4 tarmac handling to other top Sim's shows some stark differences but, keep on ignoring those and maybe they will simply go away.

The numbers on tarmac are easier to compare and prove with a well established baseline having tighter margins, yet - you expect us to believe the numbers for dirt are quite credible; why? Are the numbers for D4 tarmac comparable to top Sim's? Because the handling sure isn't.
If the math is correct and the FFB manages to represent what is happening realistically it will be right. No doubt. If you drop a glas on planet earth, it will fall. No matter how you 'feel' about it. If you brake on a specific surface, the car will stop at a specific distance. Period.

Also, I never said anywhere that Dirt4s physics are flawless, but I have still not seen any data or example that either proves or disproves that it is realistic, therefore I will remain sceptical in BOTH directions. There is a trend or tendency to too much grip or whatever still, because most examples show longer braking distances. And in order to figure it all out, the telemetry output helps 100% because this is what shows what is actually happening with the car. If there is something that isn't right, it will be visible in there for sure.

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It's been claimed that the way in which DiRT 4 simulates, is more accurate.  If that's true, then some value in the accurate simulation is waaay off.  Like, a mile off.  A FULL mile 

& to all that reckon it's peoples perception that is out, they've either never been in a real car ever, or really really like the smell of strong glue...

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KevM said:
It's been claimed that the way in which DiRT 4 simulates, is more accurate.  If that's true, then some value in the accurate simulation is waaay off.  Like, a mile off.  A FULL mile 

& to all that reckon it's peoples perception that is out, they've either never been in a real car ever, or really really like the smell of strong glue...
You didn't read my response properly, because I never said that.

I said IF the math is correct, then, IN THAT CASE, there must be an other cause why it feels wrong, namely FFB and perception.
I didn't said, it's just peoples perceptions and the physics are right.

About the values in the simulation: Yes, there are differences between Dirt4 and the videos of RL-footage we have found, you can't deny that. But how can we measure? There simply is no data available that fundamentally proves this. All we have are examples, that tend to, or indicate, but not prove. There are simply too many variables. You can't prove something isn't possible by showing examples where it isn't. But you can prove something is possible by showing an example where it is.

In other words: Arguing, the physics is 70% off, because the g-forces are so and so is wrong, because the data it's based on is just one example. Maybe someone finds an other one in the near future thats closer to Dirt 4s physics, what then? 50%?
So all we can say, is that it seems to be at least not worse than 70% atm.

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KevM said:
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.


& that's what I said about telemetry & percentages ^^^

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KevM said:
KevM said:
Balls to stats & telemetry.  Doesn't matter.

You can put numbers into a computer all day and have them precise & accurate.  But if that doesn't translate to giving the user the feel of driving a Rally car, then it's wasted effort

If you can 'feel' how far it's off , then it's off.


& that's what I said about telemetry & percentages ^^^
Yeah, but you simply can't make it feel right, if the numbers are wrong, so it isn't wasted effort, but the only true way to improve and measure, that isn't subjective. We are running in circles here.

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Damn, too bad RFPE guys stopped working on their mod. It seems to improve DR (maybe tarmac seems to be too slippery, but gravel and Monaco look sweet!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw5G0356-_E

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Simulation(has weight & got grip)



Arcade(slidy, uncontrollable mess)



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SamRWD said:
Damn, too bad RFPE guys stopped working on their mod. It seems to improve DR (maybe tarmac seems to be too slippery, but gravel and Monaco look sweet!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw5G0356-_E
That's the game I hoped DiRT 4 would be :(

Id buy that & enjoy every penny!

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Tarmac looks even worse than the original in that video... hahaha.
Metro on tarmac looks spot on, but that Peugeot... Well, it might be because he is locking his rear wheels with a handbrake ;)

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KevM said:
SamRWD said:
Damn, too bad RFPE guys stopped working on their mod. It seems to improve DR (maybe tarmac seems to be too slippery, but gravel and Monaco look sweet!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw5G0356-_E
That's the game I hoped DiRT 4 would be :(

Id buy that & enjoy every penny!
The mighty DiRT Rally....sooo sweet like honey....has DiRT 4 been fixed yet??  Haven't played for a good month now....too painful.

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Tarmac looks even worse than the original in that video... hahaha.
what made me laugh was gravel looks better how lol.it was amazing in dirt rally why would you change it ?

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SamRWD said:
Tarmac looks even worse than the original in that video... hahaha.
Metro on tarmac looks spot on, but that Peugeot... Well, it might be because he is locking his rear wheels with a handbrake ;)
"Spot on?" Dude was gliding around like a super hovercraft named Keith.

Rally Trophy from 2001 had more convincing tarmac physics than that, come on.

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That mod is too much RBRish. If Dirt 4 is ridiculously gripy and understering, RBR is the other side, no grip and endless slides at 0 speed.

I don't think Dirt 4 is so much better in tarmac than Dirt Rally. The problem with DR was always weight, but the grip in tarmac was not so bad, but no weight let you slide infinitely on tarmac. But it's almost imposible to do this in Dirt 4, I don't like tarmac either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9WGoOzc4g8

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its actually weight that does let you slide :) .............................then you need a good tire and suspension model to make it stick and make it controllable 

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its actually weight that does let you slide :) .............................then you need a good tire and suspension model to make it stick and make it controllable 

I mean downforce weight. The inertia was not bad at Dirt Rally. Downforce, vertical, weight was all mixed up. You can see it in jumps and bumps.

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its actually weight that does let you slide :) .............................then you need a good tire and suspension model to make it stick and make it controllable 

Weight make the car grip. The velocity of the mass actually make the car slide.

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SamRWD said:
Tarmac looks even worse than the original in that video... hahaha.
Metro on tarmac looks spot on, but that Peugeot... Well, it might be because he is locking his rear wheels with a handbrake ;)
"Spot on?" Dude was gliding around like a super hovercraft named Keith.

Rally Trophy from 2001 had more convincing tarmac physics than that, come on.
That's probably quite like it should be.  It's the guys that can drive a car in conditions like that & make it look like it's on rails, that are WRC quality!

Think of local rallies you attend.  You have the quick drivers, the poor drivers in quick cars, a quick driver in a poor car, then poor drivers in poor cars.  But you always get one of those half-wits that are the Entertainer of the Rally.  They are out of every junction sideways and going mental everywhere.  Times are shocking, but they're having fun & it's easier to slip about & act the wag, than to be fast & precise 

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KevM said:
SamRWD said:
Tarmac looks even worse than the original in that video... hahaha.
Metro on tarmac looks spot on, but that Peugeot... Well, it might be because he is locking his rear wheels with a handbrake ;)
"Spot on?" Dude was gliding around like a super hovercraft named Keith.

Rally Trophy from 2001 had more convincing tarmac physics than that, come on.
That's probably quite like it should be.  It's the guys that can drive a car in conditions like that & make it look like it's on rails, that are WRC quality!
Nah, I can tell bad tarmac physics from good ones, believe it or not. I've seen so many tarmac events during my years on this earth.

The ones in that video are garbage.

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I like how that 306 steps out and locks the rear under braking on tarmac :) Looks like the new physics lend the cars weight,IMHO.

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Without opening a very old can of worms, I'll be standing by the fact that Panzerplatte ain't actually tarmac and that expecting tarmac grip levels from the complex would be highly optimistic!

I think the mod looks good.  Let's hope they do D4 & save us all from this awful thread once & for all...


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I agree,its almost like the Dirtfish surface to me ,which feels inherently good with its physics.Its porous concrete it feels like.

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RFPE won't be continued according to its authors. But they said that DR physics were really limited, so maybe if D4 is as advanced as devs claim RFPE guys will be back? Not sure if files packaging Codies use won't be a problem. BTW there is another mod that let's you cheat and try any car on any event. Anyone tried driving rally cars on RX tracks and opposite? 

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SamRWD said:
BTW there is another mod that let's you cheat and try any car on any event. Anyone tried driving rally cars on RX tracks and opposite? 
I've wondered about this as well. I'm on XB1 so no go here.

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