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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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SamRWD said:
RFPE won't be continued according to its authors. But they said that DR physics were really limited, so maybe if D4 is as advanced as devs claim RFPE guys will be back? Not sure if files packaging Codies use won't be a problem. BTW there is another mod that let's you cheat and try any car on any event. Anyone tried driving rally cars on RX tracks and opposite? 
It also gives you VAC ban accordingly to race department page. 

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KevM said:
Without opening a very old can of worms, I'll be standing by the fact that Panzerplatte ain't actually tarmac and that expecting tarmac grip levels from the complex would be highly optimistic!

I think the mod looks good.  Let's hope they do D4 & save us all from this awful thread once & for all...


I'm not asking for tarmac grip on the concrete. I'm asking for proper movement. No car moves like that on any surface, regardless of grip levels. Rally cars are not hovercraft.

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That's a whole different problem though, as we figured out years ago.  
The models on DiRT don't seem to actually have steering at the point of the front wheels, but are a box, with a pivot point somewhere vaguely close to the middle that they turn around.  The wheels etc are just good animation 

It gives the steering a curious sideways floaty feel.  Kinda like when you are sitting right at the back of a bus, waaay behind the rear axle and it makes a very sharp turn.  Messes with your head a bit

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KevM said:
That's a whole different problem though, as we figured out years ago.  
The models on DiRT don't seem to actually have steering at the point of the front wheels, but are a box, with a pivot point somewhere vaguely close to the middle that they turn around.  The wheels etc are just good animation 

It gives the steering a curious sideways floaty feel.  Kinda like when you are sitting right at the back of a bus, waaay behind the rear axle and it makes a very sharp turn.  Messes with your head a bit
It can look like that sometimes, yes.

But honestly, if this is true, then all physics talk in hear here is a complete waste of time, because they have waayyy bigger fish to fry than some grip adjustment for power-oversteer.

We know very little about the physics they use (do we know anything?) and sometimes I think that they just came up with some very clever but also very simplified physics/tyre system. Way less complex compared to iracing or pcars etc.. And that might also be the reason why we never had a tyre choice.

But I hope that's not the case.

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versedi said:
SamRWD said:
RFPE won't be continued according to its authors. But they said that DR physics were really limited, so maybe if D4 is as advanced as devs claim RFPE guys will be back? Not sure if files packaging Codies use won't be a problem. BTW there is another mod that let's you cheat and try any car on any event. Anyone tried driving rally cars on RX tracks and opposite? 
It also gives you VAC ban accordingly to race department page. 
Which one? I guess you mean that cheat, not RFPE? 

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KevM said:
That's a whole different problem though, as we figured out years ago.  
The models on DiRT don't seem to actually have steering at the point of the front wheels, but are a box, with a pivot point somewhere vaguely close to the middle that they turn around.  The wheels etc are just good animation 

It gives the steering a curious sideways floaty feel.  Kinda like when you are sitting right at the back of a bus, waaay behind the rear axle and it makes a very sharp turn.  Messes with your head a bit
It can look like that sometimes, yes.

But honestly, if this is true, then all physics talk in hear here is a complete waste of time, because they have waayyy bigger fish to fry than some grip adjustment for power-oversteer.

We know very little about the physics they use (do we know anything?) and sometimes I think that they just came up with some very clever but also very simplified physics/tyre system. Way less complex compared to iracing or pcars etc.. And that might also be the reason why we never had a tyre choice.

But I hope that's not the case.
It's the same pivoting box that worked well in DiRT Rally, so I don't see that in itself, being an isssue.  & if the RFPE guys can tweak a bit of Throttle-Steer in, then what's the problem with the originators doing it?

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Do you really think that the car does not steer with front tyres?
So the front tyres are just there for show, to not break the visual illusion?

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Do you really think that the car does not steer with front tyres?
So the front tyres are just there for show, to not break the visual illusion?
I also find this quite ridicolous. It's 2017. Do we really think they can't model pivot points correctly?

But yes, sometimes it feels that way. Esp on tarmac where it feels like the the rear end never really tracks the front end.

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^Its possible,as its an old engine from Dirt days.Unless otherwise proven by CM.It makes sense that we can get away with it on lose surfaces,and its having serious issues due to that on tarmac.Dont really know if its still pivot point based,but sure would be nice to know if and what of suspension is modelled.

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If you think about it...
Afaik, DiRT had never any tyre telemtry.
We never had to worry about tyre pressure, we can not change it.
We never had to worry about tyre temperature.
We never had to worry about tyre wear (BTW, quite important for RX).

Nah, I don't want to go there....

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^LOL yeah,so lets just hope it gets fixed to where us "simmers" can get more enjoyment out of it .

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bogani said:
Do you really think that the car does not steer with front tyres?
So the front tyres are just there for show, to not break the visual illusion?
I also find this quite ridicolous. It's 2017. Do we really think they can't model pivot points correctly?

But yes, sometimes it feels that way. Esp on tarmac where it feels like the the rear end never really tracks the front end.
That's exactly what I mean.  Look at a tarmac replay in D4.  You turn in and the back turns out.  It's not a slide as it happens even on the slightest of corners.


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KevM said:
bogani said:
Do you really think that the car does not steer with front tyres?
So the front tyres are just there for show, to not break the visual illusion?
I also find this quite ridicolous. It's 2017. Do we really think they can't model pivot points correctly?

But yes, sometimes it feels that way. Esp on tarmac where it feels like the the rear end never really tracks the front end.
That's exactly what I mean.  Look at a tarmac replay in D4.  You turn in and the back turns out.  It's not a slide as it happens even on the slightest of corners.


I call it gliding. Seems accurate enough.

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GLIDE,SLIDE  whatever. Compare to tarmac  sims then draw your conclusions.For some reason the title has always had a serious issue with hard surface slip angles and imitating the forces acting on car and FFB.We are really not rehashing tarmac physics being admittedly primitive are we?
Even CM said they need work.

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https://youtu.be/jzoqrF8Hs_k

Near the end, the replay goes full helicam & it becomes easier to spot.  The car (front wheel drive Adam) looks as if it has rear wheel steering.  

Here's a replay in full chasecam.
Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry

https://youtu.be/9kiKL_Y6jwM

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I can't say that aspect ever annoyed me.  DiRT Rally was the same and it's only very acutely noticeable in feeling.  But yeah, it spurned the hovercraft complaints from us all, back in the good ole days when we hadn't much else to worry about...  :(

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KevM said:
I can't say that aspect ever annoyed me.  DiRT Rally was the same and it's only very acutely noticeable in feeling.  But yeah, it spurned the hovercraft complaints from us all, back in the good ole days when we hadn't much else to worry about...  :(
The gravel surface surely hides the phenomenon even in DR as it's basically always a slip.

However, I cant recall I notice this behaviour on the tarmac bits in Dirtfish?

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KevM said:
Here's a replay in full chasecam.
Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry
That's because the way chase cam is setup. There are lots of ways to setup a chase cam.
Cam can be fixed to any part of the car (rear, center, front)
Cam can have some reaction delay to make it smoother.
Etc.

DiRT chase cam is probably anchored somewhere around the center with some motion delay.

To verify car motion follow front tyres, you would have to have a cam at the top of the car and drive around like a daily car. No drifting and always below grip threshold

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It's not.  Watch it again.  The camera doesn't pan with steering.   And then watch the Adam in helicam.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izYPJ2z4cZo

LOL, guess what game is it at 0:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdAcraCVSZ8

Just found it funny;)

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I would ask you to consider that:
The first thing all u have to do, is to set your FOV to the correct value.
If u have the wrong FOV angle, dependend on your monitor size and your distance to the monitor, ur feel of distances is totally wrong.

Example for a 24" monitor with a distance of 40cm (I did some gfx for U)
  

But with this FOV u wouldn't see very much of the sides of the track. That's why the most people make the onboard camera a lot wider. That gives more feel the speed, but the wider u make the FOV, the longer the track feels and all felt distances become wrong.

If u drive in VR, which yet in D4 - all know - isn't possible, the feel of distances changes completely. All feels correct. Even the feel of friction, which depends on distances. And the numbers match with the seen distance.

Unfortunately, Dirt doesn't offer the possibility the enter values for the FOV in degrees. I don't know the FOV of the value 1.0. Hmm, but I remember an .ini, where the FOV is written down as degree value... Maybe...

Cheers

PS.
...Just beside ur discussion about physics and feel. That all is very important to consider.

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