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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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- All who disagree to that, just don't know better and don't have any idea of perspectives and how u get it matched with your monitor position.
- All who disagree to that, just don't know rallying in VR.


Cause there is nothing to disagree. That is no meaning. Is like disagreeing that 2 + 2 = 4 (e.g.)



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KevM said:
...
Here's a replay in full chasecam.
Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry
....
And why do U think, that is wrong? That happened very often to me in RealLife in curves with my old FWD Honda Civic 20 years ago. While accelerating and my backend was in a dip (e.g.), it lost grip and wanted to overtake me. Looked from outside like oversteer. Sometimes I turned completely around 180°. If I didn't catched it.

I dont say, that the FWD cars in D4 are perfect, but this kind of movement of FWD cars is not absolutely wrong.

Edit:
Or maybe I missunderstood you, and u meant that the behavior u showed us, is correct?

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Public Go kart for novices
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2tKQ2qW4dA

Shifter go kart(Look arcade)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kCcuwGUVsY

Apparently the best kart simulator(Sorry for the youtuber, too lazy searching at specific demonstration)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0raMDkwImA


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Vannipo said:
I would ask you to consider that:
The first thing all u have to do, is to set your FOV to the correct value.
If u have the wrong FOV angle, dependend on your monitor size and your distance to the monitor, ur feel of distances is totally wrong.

Example for a 24" monitor with a distance of 40cm (I did some gfx for U)
  

But with this FOV u wouldn't see very much of the sides of the track. That's why the most people make the onboard camera a lot wider. That gives more feel the speed, but the wider u make the FOV, the longer the track feels and all felt distances become wrong.

If u drive in VR, which yet in D4 - all know - isn't possible, the feel of distances changes completely. All feels correct. Even the feel of friction, which depends on distances. And the numbers match with the seen distance.

Unfortunately, Dirt doesn't offer the possibility the enter values for the FOV in degrees. I don't know the FOV of the value 1.0. Hmm, but I remember an .ini, where the FOV is written down as degree value... Maybe...

Cheers

PS.
...Just beside ur discussion about physics and feel. That all is very important to consider.

Yes, thats totally correct, but it doesn't change the telemetry data. Looking at the exact values, how far the car really travels in the virtual space, is completely independent from this.

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Agreed.
But I think many guys here don't talk about real measurements. Or has anyone measured distances in D4? I thought, it's more about the "feel" while u drive? I think, measurements in D4 will fit. Cause in DR the measurements fit. But just since I drive with VR.

If u want, u can do a test by yourself:
Just drive slow and straight. About 10 km/h.  Focus to the street on the horizon. Now slowly move ur head forward to your monitor. About 2cm/s. Maybe close one eye. You should realize a vertigo effect. Like seen in some films and know as vertigo zoom. U will get in the distance, where the vertigo gets "neutral" and the perspective doesn't seem to be squeezed anymore. If u reach that point, the game perspective has matched ur eyes perspective. But u now should be 10cm in front of your monitor. :) The Eyes FOV is about 170°. In VR u have a FOV of 110°.

In times I have driven in 2D, I always sat close in front of a 65" TV. In this situation I could use a really wide FOV.



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No offense to you @Vannipo, but maybe you should go back and read the whole thread before posting something like this.
This is a general problem in our physics discussion, people just jump in at any point and post whatever is on their mind, and other people respond to that and the whole discussion gets regurgitated all over again just in a different colour. (Again no offense to you personally, and what you say is factually correct but of no importance for what we discuss here)
We are pretty much at a point where we can't do nothing more to give codemasters a hand in fixing things (I don't think they really want help anyway).
We have people reading out all kinds of telemitry directly from the game (this is also how they figured out that stoppng distances are waaaay too short still, apart from "feeling" it in game), and that telemitry is compared to whatever RL data is available to us (onboards with telemitry).
That is all a community member can do without having a look at the game's code and how the telemitry gets calculated, and I think whatever the players feel is wrong with the game has been communicated clearly enough in here.
So whatever happens to D4's physics is up to the dev team now, lets hope for the best.

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Having proper triple-monitor support is also important in regard to view angles; while the center monitor may be perfectly scaled, the angled ones views are stretched way too much without proper support. This another area where "Sim's" get it right but, in VR - those things are non-issues.

While FOV aspects can certainly impact how we perceive speed, I suspect most of us here are aware and have experience with setting FOV in various titles for improved realism. Still, when the physics / handling are off, we can sense it; discounting it because its hard to quantify isn't going to convince all of us.

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KevM said:
https://youtu.be/jzoqrF8Hs_k

Near the end, the replay goes full helicam & it becomes easier to spot.  The car (front wheel drive Adam) looks as if it has rear wheel steering.  

Here's a replay in full chasecam.
Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry

https://youtu.be/9kiKL_Y6jwM
tbh i watched some IRL cameracars of the Adam and the handling is not so different from the game. i see real drivers pushing less, maybe because IRL it's more difficult to keep the car on the track. so maybe, despite they improved the weight from DR, probably it's still not enough, so cars regain grip very fast, they are easy to handle and recovering from a mistake is not that punishing (understeer, or oversteer).

but imho overall codies is getting closer, so let's hope for the future

 (imho the physic is not that bad currently guys, the real problem is that coming from DR it feels very different, and i still sometimes scream because in DR i was able to do that trick and in dirt 4 it doesn't work, so i have to relearn every car)

this is a video for reference 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfZ3qvnTpuw

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Wow that daily challenge Mini is a hovercraft on tarmac .I can't drive it at all as I feel it's nowhere near a representation of  a FWD car on tarmac........floats and laterally moves with no feedback or tire noise 

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KevM said:

Near the end, the replay goes full helicam & it becomes easier to spot.  The car (front wheel drive Adam) looks as if it has rear wheel steering.  

Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry

tbh i watched some IRL cameracars of the Adam and the handling is not so different from the game. i see real drivers pushing less, maybe because IRL it's more difficult to keep the car on the track. so maybe, despite they improved the weight from DR, probably it's still not enough, so cars regain grip very fast, they are easy to handle and recovering from a mistake is not that punishing (understeer, or oversteer).

but imho overall codies is getting closer, so let's hope for the future

 (imho the physic is not that bad currently guys, the real problem is that coming from DR it feels very different, and i still sometimes scream because in DR i was able to do that trick and in dirt 4 it doesn't work, so i have to relearn every car)

this is a video for reference 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfZ3qvnTpuw
I agree that the physics are not fundamentally flawed, but the game does infuriate me often. Even the R5 class which is regarded as the best out-of-the-box suffers from this excessive grip issue (grip, tire slip, aero.. whatever it is). The main issue seems to be that there is absolutely no gradual grip gain/loss. And it's way too easy to push hard. I know this has been said already in this thread, but I have not been very active, and as an avid DiRT Rally, Sébastien Loeb Rally Evo and WRC 6 player I have come to a lot of conclusions about the physics in D4.

I'm close to the platinum on PS4 Pro, Simulation handling, G29 wheel. But it's like I'm forcing myself to play sometimes just for trophies. The handling model is just not satisfying. I can tune and make a lot of the cars better, but that is just masking the fundamental issue that is affecting the handling model. The RWD cars are just downright unplayable with the understeer. And a good tune just loads them with snap oversteer. The 4WDs are a hit-and-miss. Depends on the car/track combo. But since you mention FWD, and everyone thinks FWDs work great, I even feel the excessive grip in those. Think what you want of SLRE but I still believe that it is hands-down the best physics model of the current generation of rally games. I took the Suzuki Swift for a spin last night and it was instant gratification. While D4 FWD cars behave like they should, I agree with you that it's still way too easy to regain grip. Overdriving seems to be the name of the game in D4. In SLRE a FWD behaves similarly but if you overdrive you fly off the track. There is no instant regain of grip just by flicking the wheel. It just feels so much better and so more realistic, not just for FWD, but with all the cars.

I think Codies has basically released an unfinished game, and the fix may be easy or impossible for a game that has been already released. Like many others in this forum, I feel that the underlying handling model has been correctly developed but poorly implemented. I leave my replay of the Suzuki if anyone cares to comment whether what they see is totally off or not related to real life. Personally, I see much more real-life-esque car movement in SLRE replays than I do in D4 replays. And it all seems to come down to the lack of a progressive gain/loss of traction in D4. I like sims, but more than something super-realistic, I am looking for something that is intuitive and fun. Right now, D4 is just not fun. I feel like I am driving a Project CARS GT3 car on a public road. There is way too much circuit-style driving in the D4 handling model. Rally cars need to get the back end out once in a while, and once they do, the back end needs to be reigned in gradually. I just don't see that in D4, not even in the R5 class, where the rear end also snaps back into line as if it were a soldier told to fall in line by the platoon leader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UupkHgYAUZ8

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KevM said:
https://youtu.be/jzoqrF8Hs_k

Near the end, the replay goes full helicam & it becomes easier to spot.  The car (front wheel drive Adam) looks as if it has rear wheel steering.  

Here's a replay in full chasecam.
Again, the rear of the car moves in the opposite direction to the steering on corner entry

https://youtu.be/9kiKL_Y6jwM
tbh i watched some IRL cameracars of the Adam and the handling is not so different from the game. i see real drivers pushing less, maybe because IRL it's more difficult to keep the car on the track. so maybe, despite they improved the weight from DR, probably it's still not enough, so cars regain grip very fast, they are easy to handle and recovering from a mistake is not that punishing (understeer, or oversteer).

but imho overall codies is getting closer, so let's hope for the future

 (imho the physic is not that bad currently guys, the real problem is that coming from DR it feels very different, and i still sometimes scream because in DR i was able to do that trick and in dirt 4 it doesn't work, so i have to relearn every car)

this is a video for reference 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfZ3qvnTpuw
Ack nonsense!  
The back end in game floats about on virtually every corner.  That in-car shows little or no need to countersteer at all. 

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KevM said:

Ack nonsense!  
The back end in game floats about on virtually every corner.  That in-car shows little or no need to countersteer at all. 
probably i was not clear so i will do a WOT

many of you are pointing that there is too much grip in the game, expecially in the backend of the cars.
i would say instead that PROBABLY (i m not a game developer so these are thougts) there isn't enough weight, so cars lose and regain grip very quickly compared to IRL. let's say for example in DR cars feel very light, like 50% compared to real cars. in D4 they are like 80%. now in DR they feel more natural but imho they are just more arcade, they will react to every input no matter what, they spin (horsepower) but don't understeer at all ( while braking or throttlin), and this is wrong.

(i will not shit talk about arcade, wanna just say arcade feels more fun while simulation can feel very irritating if you are not good enough, but very rewarding when you achieve it)

in D4 instead the feeling is strange because the weight transfer is there but it doesn't feel natural. when you brake you move the weight on the front wheels, so you lose the back and the car spins. if there is more weight, or less grip,  all 4 wheels will lose grip and the car will understeer, in the same way when you throttle after a corner the weight will go back, but still not enough so you feel the back regain grip while the front lose grip= understeeer. understeer while throttling is right, but simply happens too quickly in the game and so you can't powerslide and can't manage the car.

now probably it's not the weight, but the suspension model, or the tyre model. i m just pointing that overall the behaviour is correct but simply not satisfying and too easy to manage (but also confusing sometimes).

so, going back to my previous post, the result is IRL they just drive clean because if they lose grip they lose time, or even hit a wall, while in D4 you can drive on the limit without losing time (you can recover the car) and no risk to go out of the track (no understeer)

when is wet the game feels more natural, but still not enough, so imho the problem is not only the grip, but something else (weight or suspension model)

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I noticed a couple of days ago that the engine sound for the Subaru WRX sti would cut out on full throttle. But it doesnt cut out if youre gentle on the power. (Like F1 cars used to when they legalised Traction control.) At first i thought it was the car bottoming out or body work. But the moment i realised its throttle sensitive has me thinking even in sim mode traction control is enabled ingame.
i would say instead that PROBABLY (i m not a game developer so these are thougts) there isn't enough weight, so cars lose and regain grip very quickly compared to IRL. let's say for example in DR cars feel very light, like 50% compared to real cars. in D4 they are like 80%. now in DR they feel more natural but imho they are just more arcade, they will react to every input no matter what, they spin (horsepower) but don't understeer at all ( while braking or throttlin), and this is wrong.

in D4 instead the feeling is strange because the weight transfer is there but it doesn't feel natural. when you brake you move the weight on the front wheels, so you lose the back and the car spins. if there is more weight, or less grip,  all 4 wheels will lose grip and the car will understeer, in the same way when you throttle after a corner the weight will go back, but still not enough so you feel the back regain grip while the front lose grip= understeeer. understeer while throttling is right, but simply happens too quickly in the game and so you can't powerslide and can't manage the car.

now probably it's not the weight, but the suspension model, or the tyre model. i m just pointing that overall the behaviour is correct but simply not satisfying and too easy to manage (but also confusing sometimes).

so, going back to my previous post, the result is IRL they just drive clean because if they lose grip they lose time, or even hit a wall, while in D4 you can drive on the limit without losing time (you can recover the car) and no risk to go out of the track (no understeer)

when is wet the game feels more natural, but still not enough, so imho the problem is not only the grip, but something else (weight or suspension model)
The weight transfer and especially the speed of it is something you can tune out with dampers, suspension, camber and roll bar adjustments. Defintely I've been able to get most cars to behave almost a mirror image of Dirt Rally except under 100% acceleration. After 10-30 shakedowns on a custom low complexity stage.

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So since there was no roadbooks for more than 3 weeks, was there any more info on the "potential" fix by codemasters anywhere ?
Also I don't know if it was mentionned here before, but Kevin Abbring is not working full time with huyndai anymore and he used to play Dirt Rally, maybe he could be of some help for dirt 4 ?
Here is some footage of Kevin driving in a daily challenge :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnPuk2ECaIQ


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Accro2008 said:
So since there was no roadbooks for more than 3 weeks, was there any more info on the "potential" fix by codemasters anywhere ?
Also I don't know if it was mentionned here before, but Kevin Abbring is not working full time with huyndai anymore and he used to play Dirt Rally, maybe he could be of some help for dirt 4 ?
Here is some footage of Kevin driving in a daily challenge :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnPuk2ECaIQ


I think everyone has seen that video, Accro... and I think everyone knows about Kevin Abbring helping with DR as well. :D

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he played on low graphics aswell could it be that porky is dun dun dahhhh....kevin :D

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What about a third handling setting to satisfy all tastes?

Gamer.  Simulation.  DiRT Rally

id be happy with that....

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So far on steam, there's 72% positive review & a 79/100 metacritic. The first 20 most helpful review on steam are all positive.

What I learned in the videogame world, simulation handling is about car that stick to the road, feature car setup for unfair advantage & drive with assist. B) B) B)

Simulation feel like(this car has mandatory electronic function)


Arcade feel like
IMG

I see no problem there.

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Fascinating post here, especially relating the central differential settings. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=946479197
"the rear wheels lose grip. Immediately, the central differential assigns less power to those wheels and as a result they find grip. This means your slide ends and you gain grip again, which is not what you want."


So if your driving style is sliding around corners, don't have the central differential locked. Instead, maintain a balanced setting or even allow it to be open. This is also why R5 cars are easier to slide than Group A cars. R5s don't have a central diff while Group As do.

Going to try and apply this during my next session on the Evo X as that is the car I have highest doubts on.

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Why would you willingly lose grip that is available in game? It is not a matter of driving style, IRL powersliding is a legit way to keep speed/momentum through a corner which would be otherwise very slow if you wanted to maintain traction (loose surface just doesn't offer tarmac grip). But if you drive like that in the game you are slower than if you'd stay on the grip. Sure there is something to be said about a clean drive, but that should be up to the driver's skill, right now you have  to really work setups AND the car to get oversteer, even more so on corner exit, predominantly steering with your hands, not your feet.
Powersliding is a necessity in rally (loose surface), even in the year 2017, but in game it is a detriment to your stagetime.
Also, RWD don't have a central diff do they?

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Fascinating post here, especially relating the central differential settings. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=946479197
"the rear wheels lose grip. Immediately, the central differential assigns less power to those wheels and as a result they find grip. This means your slide ends and you gain grip again, which is not what you want."


So if your driving style is sliding around corners, don't have the central differential locked. Instead, maintain a balanced setting or even allow it to be open. This is also why R5 cars are easier to slide than Group A cars. R5s don't have a central diff while Group As do.

Going to try and apply this during my next session on the Evo X as that is the car I have highest doubts on.
I think that the advice on keeping the central diff unlocked is misleading and does not comply with what the game replays show. I've found that the biggest issue when powersliding in the game is the abrupt loss of torque on the rear axle due to power being transfered to the front axle when the inside front wheel gets off the ground. Just because the rear end is sliding doesn't mean that it is without grip and most importantly, doesn't mean that the rear axle has less grip than the front. Remember that during a sustained slide, the car's weight will shift to the back as long as power is being applied, and the rear axle will have more grip. I've found that the "hand of God" effect usually happens when the inside front wheel lifts during a slide, (partially because of the maybe excessive camber differences seen in stages) and the front wheel lifts of the ground and starts spinning freely. At this point, if the central diff is too loose, the front axle will receive more and more torque to rotate the free spinning wheel, thus power is being subtracted from the rear axle, bogging the car down as a large amount of torque is being wasted on the free rotating wheel. When the front inside wheel touches the surface again torque distribution is normalized and the car jumps forward, thus creating the "hand of god" effect that is discussed in this thread. This behavior in itself is not wrong and depicts how the torque distribution should work on 4wds, but I think that the surface's camber seems too aggressive compared to real life (Wales RL footage doesn't seem to have such aggressive camber differences), and that ultimately makes it harder to sustain slides as there is too much torque variation happening between the axles in order to achieve a smooth slide, which also shows why cars feel so much different in dirt fish, since the surface is flatter and the torque distribution remains more stable. In order to minimize this behavior a higher driving locks on both front and rear diffs, as well as a stiff central diff is preferred, as less power is going to be transferred from the rear axle towards the front axle. This in turn makes the car very understeery on turn in while on power, making it necessary to use more aggressive weight transfering to get the car pointed towards the Apex. From watching group A footage, this seems to me as the diff settings preferred by drivers (minus the Evo VI, as this one is a completely different story). As in this footage from 1995 rally Wales https://youtu.be/_eN0ry7pOOY. Notice how the drivers throw the car left and right in order to get good turn in, using a lower diff coast setting in order to induce yaw during turn in, and applying power as soon as the car gains yaw movement. I've used these assumptions in order to tune the 1995 Subaru in game, and I'm pretty happy with the results I've got, as I've managed to get the car to imitate this behavior and made it able to sustain longer slides (given that proper driving technique is used, of course). 

Reason I said the Evo VI is a different story is because of its active central diff and active yaw control on the rear diff, which may change the car's behavior immensely and make it more prone to straightening itself up rather than sliding. As well as the Evo VI, all the 2000 cc 4wd cars used electronically activated diffs, which may explain why people feel that the cars behave awkwardly in game. Essentially, if these cars are modeled using these types of diffs, then there are a whole lot of settings that we have no access to. Here's a post from Antony warmbold, former WRC driver, in which he explains in details all the mapping that took place when setting up active diffs http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com.br/2011/05/chapter-15-differential-extravaganza.html?m=1. In D4 we have access to only the mechanical settings of the diffs, but other settings such as steering angle, throttle input, brake input, yaw angle, wheel spin, locking lag and others explained in this post can greatly influence how much lock the diff has at a certain point of time and how much torque each wheel is receiving. These settings could explain why the 2000 cc cars have a larger tendency to straighten out when trying to slide, as the eletronically controlled diff may be sending power to the wheels in order to recover the car rather than sustain the slide. Again, as we have no access to these settings in the game, that is an assumption that the diff maps used in the game are conservative in the same way as the default setups, thus inducing the cars to recover quickly from slides. 

Anyways, I believe that differentials should receive more attention on this thread as their performance greatly impacts the car's behavior during sliding and is one of the most difficult things to setup in a car, as mentioned in the blog post mentioned beforehand. My guess is that D4's physics can more accurately simulate differentials when compared to DR, making it more difficult to sustain slides unless you're completely aware of where the car's balance is and how much torque is being transferred to each wheel. However, just because it may be simulating torque distribution more precisely, maybe some of the parameters used need revision, as it seems rather silly that you can't get most of the cars to spin their wheels on a standstill.

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Hi,
being disappointed mostly by 4WD gravel physics, here are my thoughts/findings.

Turning with throttle currently causes understeer.
Turning without throttle (no matter if the breaks are applied or not) currently causes heavy oversteer. 
Just try free roam e.g. with Fiesta R5. It doesn't matter what gear is engaged, just drive let's say about 60mph/100kmh, release the throttle and then turn gently left or right. The car spins heavily, why? I've never driven 4WD car, but I can hardly believe such behaviour is realistic. Any tunning doesn't help much.

Could it be somehow related to weight transfer? I love idea of weight transfer, but isn't it so, that it is currently somehow exagerated. 
Meaning that turning with full throttle brings too much weight to rear wheels, which gives them too much grip, while too little grip is applied to front wheels, resulting in understeering. On the other hand when entering turns without throttle too much weight is coming to front wheels and very little weight to rear wheels, so the rear ones have almost no grip, resulting in unpredictable oversteering. This behavior makes the play annoying as I am supposed to do almost opposite things than my instinct.

Dear Codemasters, please do not take it badly,
but it might help you to understand what we, starving for simulaton, are after, if you study car behaviour from Assetto Corsa or almost prehistoric Richard Burns Rally. I think that developers of those two games put more effort in understanding how the cars behave. Definitely the best would be to listen to any rally driver, who doesn't need to be any contemporary superstar from WRC or RX, it can be any local rally driver experienced with 4WD cars just wiling to bring more realism into this otherwise very nice game.

Fingers crossed.

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petrp said:
Hi,
being disappointed mostly by 4WD gravel physics, here are my thoughts/findings.

Turning with throttle currently causes understeer.
Turning without throttle (no matter if the breaks are applied or not) currently causes heavy oversteer. 
Just try free roam e.g. with Fiesta R5. It doesn't matter what gear is engaged, just drive let's say about 60mph/100kmh, release the throttle and then turn gently left or right. The car spins heavily, why? I've never driven 4WD car, but I can hardly believe such behaviour is realistic. Any tunning doesn't help much.

Could it be somehow related to weight transfer? I love idea of weight transfer, but isn't it so, that it is currently somehow exagerated. 
Meaning that turning with full throttle brings too much weight to rear wheels, which gives them too much grip, while too little grip is applied to front wheels, resulting in understeering. On the other hand when entering turns without throttle too much weight is coming to front wheels and very little weight to rear wheels, so the rear ones have almost no grip, resulting in unpredictable oversteering. This behavior makes the play annoying as I am supposed to do almost opposite things than my instinct.

Dear Codemasters, please do not take it badly,
but it might help you to understand what we, starving for simulaton, are after, if you study car behaviour from Assetto Corsa or almost prehistoric Richard Burns Rally. I think that developers of those two games put more effort in understanding how the cars behave. Definitely the best would be to listen to any rally driver, who doesn't need to be any contemporary superstar from WRC or RX, it can be any local rally driver experienced with 4WD cars just wiling to bring more realism into this otherwise very nice game.

Fingers crossed.

Turning without throttle causes oversteer, it's called off throttle oversteer and is caused by weight going off from the rear wheels. This is perfectly natural behaviour.

Giving throttle can also cause understeer if the rear wheels has enough grip. The rear wheels pushes the car straight forwards (or slighly sideways depending on diff). So if the rear has too much grip (which they seem to have in D4) it's entirely plausible for all that grip to overpower the front wheels and cause understeer. If the rear wheels get enough power to break grip you get on throttle oversteer, which is something that doesn't happen as much as it should in D4.

I drive a 200hp 4WD car daily, and both off throttle oversteer and on throttle understeer happens quite a lot. So your belief that off throttle oversteer is unrealistic is..well... wrong :-P

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