[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

[bogani 765]

Slowish said:

bogani said:

MrDeap said:

Arcade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL4nHQvW01s

Simulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkWm7xV_vu0

Simulation is about feeling of weight & feel more planted to the road. Every sim racer know that. :)

Please elaborate what the actual point is?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me: the Prius can slide on the Auto-Cross circuit while the D4 car can't slide no matter what you do with it. It doesn't make any sense but, the intended sarcasm in the attached text may escape some. :)

I mostly see someone trying to do crazy jumps.

And comparing a heavy ass Prius on standard suspension/tires to a super light rally spec 205 seems a bit odd doesn't it?

[shadow118 18]

bogani said:

Slowish said:

bogani said:

MrDeap said:

Arcade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL4nHQvW01s

Simulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkWm7xV_vu0

Simulation is about feeling of weight & feel more planted to the road. Every sim racer know that. :)

Please elaborate what the actual point is?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me: the Prius can slide on the Auto-Cross circuit while the D4 car can't slide no matter what you do with it. It doesn't make any sense but, the intended sarcasm in the attached text may escape some. :)

I mostly see someone trying to do crazy jumps.

And comparing a heavy ass Prius on standard suspension/tires to a super light rally spec 205 seems a bit odd doesn't it?

That's not even the point, real life by definition can't be arcade because you can't break the laws of physics which arcade games do often

[Madhun1967 54]

did anyone see the physics mod video on Youtube ?
https://youtu.be/ANZKBejYfTc

[bogani 765]

Madhun1967 said:

did anyone see the physics mod video on Youtube ?
https://youtu.be/ANZKBejYfTc

Would be extremely interesting to try this out and play with the grip values!

[Madhun1967 54]

thats what i was thinking and the weight also !

[KevM 44]

Probably get you VAC banned, but I'd pay to have a play around with that for a while!!

[WeamDreaver 12]

Can't you just go offline as long as you are using that thing?

[SamRWD 2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nLOuTK5_lQ

interesting 

• Body is 29 characters too short.

[nbates66 21]

whilst it could be interesting, having the ability to adjust game physics parameters is one thing, having those changes give a realistic, consistent or even useful effect is entirely another, i'd be more worried about this getting used by cheaters.

[MrDeap 12]

Didzis said:

That's not even the point, real life by definition can't be arcade because you can't break the laws of physics which arcade games do often

The world best advice to improve time in any sim racing game. To be honest, in a lot of arcade game it's easier to pull the real life line than the sim racing line.
 
If you use the real life interpretation, too often you end up slower & the sim line is a lot quicker.

[WeamDreaver 12]

About that mod thing, besides that it has some interesting real time options (what is that camera record thing?), the really interesting moment is when that tool reads the current data from the game and displays the current (unaltered) physic values.
Look at wheel grip. Notice the difference between front and rear? Front value is bigger.

Ahem...

[shadow118 18]

WeamDreaver said:

About that mod thing, besides that it has some interesting real time options (what is that camera record thing?), the really interesting moment is when that tool reads the current data from the game and displays the current (unaltered) physic values.
Look at wheel grip. Notice the difference between front and rear? Front value is bigger.

Maybe to simulate weight distribution? More weight over the axle = more grip? This works out to 52/48, just a wild guess, but it could be

[KevM 44]

I'll hazard a guess here that we could find tune the current physics with that to a more acceptable base.  The parameters are there.  

Question is, if yer man can make the parameter adjustment so user-friendly, why hasn't someone at Codies taken two or three days to re-tune everything for a patch?   They have the perfect platform to cover all tastes with the two handling modes, so why not give everyone what they had hoped for and get the damn game back up in lights???

[SamRWD 2]

KevM said:

I'll hazard a guess here that we could find tune the current physics with that to a more acceptable base.  The parameters are there.  

Question is, if yer man can make the parameter adjustment so user-friendly, why hasn't someone at Codies taken two or three days to re-tune everything for a patch?   They have the perfect platform to cover all tastes with the two handling modes, so why not give everyone what they had hoped for and get the damn game back up in lights???

Because they are not interested in any of that. They made game handle well with a gamepad, and majority of players are happy. They never intended to make a HC sim. They might have claimed it, but everything we've seen so far show that they didn't want to make rally part of the game too intimidating. "Random" rally stages are a challenge on their own from their POV.
That tool shows how one guy did more for us than Codies since the game release.

EDIT:
Dirt Rally 2 is to be expected IMHO
EDIT2: I wonder if cars even have a centre of mass to be edited? Maybe it is just a lookup table similar to what FSX uses?

[WeamDreaver 12]

First of all, it really strikes me that there is actually one single value for grip level!?
I am assuming that this guy only managed to find the according values stored in the memory and is not somehow adding or combining different values into a single one.
I am really surprised that the devs actually seem to use a single value (modifier) for tyre grip (at least once the game is started).

SamRWD said:

Because they are not interested in any of that. They made game handle well with a gamepad, and majority of players are happy. They never intended to make a HC sim. They might have claimed it, but everything we've seen so far show that they didn't want to make rally part of the game too intimidating. "Random" rally stages are a challenge on their own from their POV.
That tool shows how one guy did more for us than Codies since the game release.

I am using a gamepad (not by choice...) and the game does not handle well. Everysone who wants to drive these cars in a real fashion (apart from RX) is struggling, not matter what inputs are used.


About using the tool savely, what if I make a backup of my savegame (doing it regularly anyway), go offline (physically) play around with the tool, close the game and put my previous savegame back into place. Do I get detected anyways?

[Marshymaller 0]

WeamDreaver said:

First of all, it really strikes me that there is actually one single value for grip level!?

I'm just guessing here, but based on the fact that the guy has to freeze the value to have it stick I bet you it's a final value for ease of programming but there's a bunch of conditions behind the scenes effecting it to give vaguely authentic results. Either that or this is a monstrously old engine and this is really the best it can do, but we can't know for sure since this guy just searched around finding memory addresses that seemed to have an effect ingame.

With that said, I really get the feeling this far out from release that the game was rushed - or, that is, it had a very specific schedule and people weren't really happy with where it was at when they started pushing devs onto the F1 2017 project but it's what they released anyways. Codies isn't well-known for doing massive updates to their games in the long term, so this is probably what we're stuck with. I just hope we get clubs, at least then there will be longevity in the form of that even if the game itself is a teeny bit lackluster.

[SamRWD 2]

I see it the other way- unless we find any proof that engine is more advanced than what it seems to be looking at parameters that guy found I see no reason to assume it is an advanced physics engine. Those are probably not all parameters that game uses, but I don't expect there to be much more hidden from the tool. For example I am wondering where are those aero parameters Codies were saying got improved a lot. 

[SamRWD 2]

WeamDreaver said:

About using the tool savely, what if I make a backup of my savegame (doing it regularly anyway), go offline (physically) play around with the tool, close the game and put my previous savegame back into place. Do I get detected anyways?

I guess you wouldn't get detected, but I am going to test it out myself. I don't play D4 anyways with current physics, so I don't care that much.

[bogani 765]

I'm so gutted the RWD cars took such a huge step backwards in D4. They handeled great in DR and always put a huge grin on my face.

Out on the stages the Ascona should really be as awesome to drive as the one here below. I know it's not a 400. But anyway ;)
https://youtu.be/oo4XD4KhdX0

I would also love to have similar roads as this. Such a nice natural flow of the road that we really miss in D4 with it's endless undulations and off camber corners.

[kobeshow 0]

This single value grip thing is deceiving. It is the final value after all the calculations in the physics engine take place that is altered. What you do when you reduce the grip like that is that you will always have the same grip no matter what you do, which is absolutely unacceptable of course.
All the tires digging in and weight transfer you are doing would never have any impact on the grip with this trainer, so I find it laughable that there are people out there that defend this kind of thing for making the game better (I'm not talking about anyone in this deiscussion). It is only really useful as a cheat engine.
Also I just watched the video again and at the time he stopped the game to enable the cheat (prevet memory from using calculated grip values and enter a static one) he was decelerating so his front wheels should have more grip.

[WeamDreaver 12]

kobeshow said:

This single value grip thing is deceiving. It is the final value after all the calculations in the physics engine take place that is altered. What you do when you reduce the grip like that is that you will always have the same grip no matter what you do, which is absolutely unacceptable of course.
All the tires digging in and weight transfer you are doing would never have any impact on the grip with this trainer, so I find it laughable that there are people out there that defend this kind of thing for making the game better (I'm not talking about anyone in this deiscussion). It is only really useful as a cheat engine.

Hm, I remember a video by him doing a wheelie on gravel after having increased the rear wheel grip for demonstration of how and if the values work. So  I don't think that the grip is always the same.

[bogani 765]

WeamDreaver said:

kobeshow said:

This single value grip thing is deceiving. It is the final value after all the calculations in the physics engine take place that is altered. What you do when you reduce the grip like that is that you will always have the same grip no matter what you do, which is absolutely unacceptable of course.
All the tires digging in and weight transfer you are doing would never have any impact on the grip with this trainer, so I find it laughable that there are people out there that defend this kind of thing for making the game better (I'm not talking about anyone in this deiscussion). It is only really useful as a cheat engine.

Hm, I remember a video by him doing a wheelie on gravel after having increased the rear wheel grip for demonstration of how and if the values work. So  I don't think that the grip is always the same.

Nah. I think @kobeshow is on point there. The values we say are live time grip calculations. When he reduces the grip in the video he basically just lock it to a static value.

Ideally there would be a grip multiplier value. If the standard grip calculations is 1.0 we should be able to set it to 0.8 for example. The grip would be lower, but still dynamic across the board.

In the current state the only value that would be interesting is the car mass value, as this will affect grip without making it static.