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[DiRT 4] Constructive feedback on the subject of car-feel and physics: The Ultimate Thread

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Ok, let's flip the argument a bit :smile:
Can anyone show a video of rl gr a, R5, or WRC car struggling with rpm when doing donuts, or self centering itself when loosing tail too much? Because we get that argument a lot. The "it is setup, it is tyres, it is the driver" etc. Surely there is one rl video existing. Active diffs, launch control, those things are not making the car behave the way they do in Dirt 4.

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Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.


                                                     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXsOvy-WEI



SamRWD said:
Surely there is one rl video existing. Active diffs, launch control, those things are not making the car behave the way they do in Dirt 4.
How do you know that?

@KickUp  said the differentials are actually simulated now so it could be a thing.



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After playing some more and making some overteery setups I think that its just the problem of physics engine, because it prevents the car from moving freely, while many other things are improved and driving slow is realistic but this one thing. I hope that all these other improvements didn't come with cost of  not being able to slide. 

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BTW WRC cars never used abs and traction control. All they got were active diffs (could be tweaked real time just as engine power map both by driver during the stage), and launch control. 

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SamRWD said:
BTW WRC cars never used abs and traction control. All they got were active diffs (could be tweaked real time just as engine power map both by driver during the stage), and launch control. 
I wouldn't be that sure. I wish I remember to ask about these systems next time I discuss with a guy who 100% sure knows the answer. Group N. cars were allowed to use ABS but no one use it because the system used in these cars is not built racing in mind. Those are production cars after all.

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Benniz. Its not a personal opinion of mine, its 100% fact. Cars had traction control and abs on top of everything else. Im not your research tool, google is.

It bursts your bubble a little when you find out this, that one of the golden eras of rallying was laden with aids, but i knew rhis many years ago, this isnt new info.

This is also why i believe the current crop of wrc drivers are very good. Less aids and now 380bhp. 

All im saying is D4 better replicates the feeling of grip level, i think we can all agree dirt rally wasnt perfect and on tarmac it was a joke. There was zero connection between the wheel, the car and the cars weight. I coukdnt even do rally cross on the wheel, it was awful.

D4 is far better on the tarmac, yeah the rear is a little to grippy on gravel, ita far feom perfect but very real to me

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versedi said:
Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.
Yeah no. The rear end in-game is way too grippy regardless of setup with the 2001 Subaru. :(

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versedi said:
Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.


                                                     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXsOvy-WEI


I only managed to slide so gracefully on gravel in a R5 car. 2000's cars tend to do the countersteering work for me by pulling the front end in the forward facing direction. It can partially be seen in this video, but there are deep ruts all over the place. Maybe there are invisible ruts in D4?

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@battfinkz Wow, I didn't know they used that kind of tech, that was a let down :neutral: Anyways, none of that in 2017!

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It seems to me that some people cannot be reasoned with. Yes, I get that in DR you can get the car to oversteer easily and hold a drift without too much trouble, and it's fun and very rewarding. Unfortunately it just isn't like that in real life, unless you have a very loose, low grip surface combined with less than optimal tyres.

In most cases in real life you really have to work at getting the car into a slide and to keep it there even for a brief moment. And that really is the main difference between DR and D4. In DR chucking the car in was effortless and the tyre model model was such that the loss of grip was very gradual and therefore the drifts were very controllable. Now in D4 if you get the rear to step out the loss of grip is much more sudden and so you really have to to be on your toes to catch it, and of course it means that getting the car to drift in a controllable fashion is now much harder, as it should be. Otherwise there really doesn't seem to be that much difference between DR and D4. 

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Yes they did, that's completely wrong. By 2004 most had abs and traction control. This is 100% fact

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Torally agree Benniz. This seasons wrc is epic, it has been so drab for the past few years, but now its getting back to the good old days lol. More power, less aids, more downforce, larger wheelbase, hopefully some of the manufacturers start to return.

We actually would have seen a new 2017 lancia delta if fiat hadnt ruined the project, utter swines

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Flykas said:
After playing some more and making some overteery setups I think that its just the problem of physics engine, because it prevents the car from moving freely, while many other things are improved and driving slow is realistic but this one thing. I hope that all these other improvements didn't come with cost of  not being able to slide. 
Car don't move freely. They have weight and inertia and are consequently constrained to move in the direction of travel. For example if you're going too fast, turning the steering wheel won't make the car turn; the car will continue to go more or less straight ahead. Similarly, when you get the rear end to step out, getting on the throttle will push the car forward, therefore straightening it. And when you manage to get it sideways it will travel in the direction of travel but it will stop much sooner or even roll if the otside tyres dig into the road surface. As far as I've been able to ascertain so far this seems to all be happening in D4, so I don't see what the problem is. 

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versedi said:
Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.
Yeah no. The rear end in-game is way too grippy regardless of setup with the 2001 Subaru. :(


PaloSamo said:
versedi said:
Here ya go. Look at the understeer and how he goes from oversteer to straight line with one move of wheel. Exactly like it is now in game.


I only managed to slide so gracefully on gravel in a R5 car. 2000's cars tend to do the countersteering work for me by pulling the front end in the forward facing direction. It can partially be seen in this video, but there are deep ruts all over the place. Maybe there are invisible ruts in D4?



I don't mean that it's 100% on point [Sliding], which I've proved in my donut test before - Scoobie is simply undriftable/undonutable. 

I'm trying to show that the small wheel inputs making car go straight are not completely off though.
 The car is very reactive to small wheel inputs. 

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Headlong said:
It seems to me that some people cannot be reasoned with. Yes, I get that in DR you can get the car to oversteer easily and hold a drift without too much trouble, and it's fun and very rewarding. Unfortunately it just isn't like that in real life, unless you have a very loose, low grip surface combined with less than optimal tyres.

In most cases in real life you really have to work at getting the car into a slide and to keep it there even for a brief moment. And that really is the main difference between DR and D4. In DR chucking the car in was effortless and the tyre model model was such that the loss of grip was very gradual and therefore the drifts were very controllable. Now in D4 if you get the rear to step out the loss of grip is much more sudden and so you really have to to be on your toes to catch it, and of course it means that getting the car to drift in a controllable fashion is now much harder, as it should be. Otherwise there really doesn't seem to be that much difference between DR and D4. 
the video of colin in the focus you can set your focus in dirt rally to do exactly that.focus was one of my most driven cars and on wales so i know exactly how it feels into the corners.also driven them in real life.

in dirt 4 you cant get it to do it as close to good.



the subaru just take to the playground try a donut then compare it as we have to its real life counter part doing the exact same thing.



the subaru grips at something odd wont donut properly.there is like a odd force or something either reacting or stopping it from just doing what it should do naturally.that something is what is probably what people are noticing in game.whether it be physics , surface tyre or set ups.


side by side just watch the cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpuhY1Bbd94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Ca1mLgu8I














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Look at the steering input while doing donuts. IRL there is little to no input yet the rear end rotates around. ID4 steering is in full lock and the car is still planted. Like the front end is in anti-donut mode.

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PaloSamo said:
Look at the steering input while doing donuts. IRL there is little to no input yet the rear end rotates around. ID4 steering is in full lock and the car is still planted. Like the front end is in anti-donut mode.
I'd say it's the rear in anti-sliding mode, keeps pushing the middle of the car and through that it makes it understeer.

Look at G-Ball and Camera, it's starting to go sideways and in that moment something pulls it back. It's happening every ~180 degrees?

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dgeesi0 said:
Headlong said:
It seems to me that some people cannot be reasoned with. Yes, I get that in DR you can get the car to oversteer easily and hold a drift without too much trouble, and it's fun and very rewarding. Unfortunately it just isn't like that in real life, unless you have a very loose, low grip surface combined with less than optimal tyres.

In most cases in real life you really have to work at getting the car into a slide and to keep it there even for a brief moment. And that really is the main difference between DR and D4. In DR chucking the car in was effortless and the tyre model model was such that the loss of grip was very gradual and therefore the drifts were very controllable. Now in D4 if you get the rear to step out the loss of grip is much more sudden and so you really have to to be on your toes to catch it, and of course it means that getting the car to drift in a controllable fashion is now much harder, as it should be. Otherwise there really doesn't seem to be that much difference between DR and D4. 
the video of colin in the focus you can set your focus in dirt rally to do exactly that.focus was one of my most driven cars and on wales so i know exactly how it feels into the corners.also driven them in real life.

in dirt 4 you cant get it to do it as close to good.



the subaru just take to the playground try a donut then compare it as we have to its real life counter part doing the exact same thing.



the subaru grips at something odd wont donut properly.there is like a odd force or something either reacting or stopping it from just doing what it should do naturally.that something is what is probably what people are noticing in game.whether it be physics , surface tyre or set ups.


side by side just watch the cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpuhY1Bbd94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Ca1mLgu8I














I really don't see a massive difference between real life and the game. The fact that the camera is locked to the car in the game and is static in the real life video doesn't really help, but I think it's pretty close. 

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Headlong said:





I really don't see a massive difference between real life and the game. The fact that the camera is locked to the car in the game and is static in the real life video doesn't really help, but I think it's pretty close. 
It's not that locked:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-HAIQ7Jj2k

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I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.

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I havent had a good look into the tuning on D4 yet but can you adjust LSD? The video of the doughnut to me just looks like its trying to replicate a slip diff transferring power to the front under loss of grip?

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stumbled upon a vid of a beemer in a recent local rally with telemetry on it. including g forces 
https://youtu.be/nJZprpgbszI

edit: car in vid 

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Accro2008 said:
I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.
It's not perfect, but it's closer to reality than DR, and don't recall too many people complaining that the cars didn't feel righ in DR. In fact, there are still people on this forum now who believe that DR is more realistic. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusion. 

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battfinkz said:
I havent had a good look into the tuning on D4 yet but can you adjust LSD? The video of the doughnut to me just looks like its trying to replicate a slip diff transferring power to the front under loss of grip?
Yes, you can adjust the LSD. 

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Accro2008 said:
I can't believe some people actually think the feeling on the rally side of thing in dirt 4 is perfect in every way.
And the "You are not a rally driver, you have no idea how to drive a rally car then!" argument is just a joke, didn't know there was that many ex-official wrc drivers on the forum who drove top end works rallycars.
Yeah, to me to.  Okay I never drove a real rally car, but if this is natural movement of the car then this would mean that thus first realistic game and other sims are just bad.

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