Is Dirt 4 dying

[BorisTheFrog 0]

Porkhammer said:

BorisTheFrog said:

Why all the comparisons and references to Dirt Rally when this game is clearly a sequel to Dirt 3?

Because it isn't.

They tried to make it a sequel of both D3 and DR... or something. I don't know.

In the words of Codemasters they've added the ''thrill and realism'' elements of DR into the core structure of Dirt's 2 and 3 to create Dirt 4. In terms of structure the game bears absolutely no resemblence to Dirt Rally and is in numerical sequence to the aforementioned two games so we can safely assume it's a sequel. :)

[Porkhammer 78]

BorisTheFrog said:

In terms of structure the game bears absolutely no resemblence to Dirt Rally

Except the core handling, that they improved for sim mode... which is non-existant in Dirt 3. Unless I misunderstand completely and you refer to the menus or something equally unimportant. :P

BorisTheFrog said:

so we can safely assume it's a sequel. :)

Nope.

I mean yes, but... no. They tried to please both Dirt Rallyists and Dirt 3...ists. But it's not a direct continuation of Dirt 3, which was just trash that shoved gymkhana down everybody's throats.

[Janneman60 93]

Porkhammer said:

They tried to please both Dirt Rallyists and Dirt 3...ists. But it's not a direct continuation of Dirt 3, which was just trash that shoved gymkhana down everybody's throats.

As in many cases, not just games, trying to get the best of both worlds gives disappointment on all sides.

Not that D4 is a bad gamem not at all. But just maybe the marketing of CM gave peopke a wrong idea of what to expect.

At least for me that is the case. CM spoke about the help of good drivers for rally and the help of Petter Solberg for RX. And made me believe that itv was more SIM as DR. That is/was a good way to make it disappointing for me. Surely I am not alone in that....

[Porkhammer 78]

Janneman60 said:

CM spoke about the help of good drivers for rally and the help of Petter Solberg for RX. And made me believe that itv was more SIM as DR.

But it is? Or at the very least on par with it, seeing as they they used Dirt Rally's V2 handling as base for Dirt 4. It just brought different problems. I remain hopeful that they will fix things in the future.

[Janneman60 93]

Is it on par? This week I did a daily with the peug 205. I was only 19 seconds slower as the winner. In DR that would be a solud topv20 pkace. In D4 I was only number 692. 

[Porkhammer 78]

Janneman60 said:

Is it on par? This week I did a daily with the peug 205. I was only 19 seconds slower as the winner. In DR that would be a solud topv20 pkace. In D4 I was only number 692. 

Sorry, I fail to see what this has got to do with anything?

[versedi 33]

Janneman60 said:

Is it on par? This week I did a daily with the peug 205. I was only 19 seconds slower as the winner. In DR that would be a solud topv20 pkace. In D4 I was only number 692. 

It only confirms that DR was so flawed that when you've got used to abusing the physics in a specific way you could have a big advantage over other players. 

[dgeesi0 242]

it just confirms you havent done aswell as you thought.thats it.

[RMKIP455 0]

Porkhammer said:

Nahkamarakatti said:

Porkhammer said:

Indigo121 said:

Well, as of the last 3 days Dirt 4 now has less players than Dirt Rally...
http://steamcharts.com/cmp/310560,421020#7d

Who cares though? Who honestly cares about what other people play?

I'm enjoying myself in Dirt 4, that's what matters to me.

I'm pretty sure people who play online cares if the game is gonna sink or not. Dead MP is equal to no MP.

Guess I'm one of few that couldn't care less about MP.

I too could careless about MP

[Pfei 100]

I love MP and am so sick of empty lobbies in SLRE and WRC 6. So imagine my surprise when a brand new DiRT game has only one or two lobbies with a couple people in them, and in Pro Tour I'm lucky if I get a match once in a while.

[sqdstr 84]

I just don't understand why people always associate sim with having to be difficult.
It's always the first thing they complain about, "oh no this is too easy, surely this cannot be simulation!!"...
If something is easy to do/drive in real life, then why should it be difficult in a game?
I think it was @RallyDriven who said that someone drove a Fiesta R5 in real life and he said it was so easy to drive.
Plus if Meeke and Solberg are satisfied and even @Porkhammer keeps saying it's good and even better than DR. then why keep questioning the handling just because it's not difficult enough for you?

[RodgerDavies 779]

sqdstr said:

I just don't understand why people always associate sim with having to be difficult.
It's always the first thing they complain about, "oh no this is too easy, surely this cannot be simulation!!"...
If something is easy to do/drive in real life, then why should it be difficult in a game?
I think it was @RallyDriven who said that someone drove a Fiesta R5 in real life and he said it was so easy to drive.
Plus if Meeke and Solberg are satisfied and even @Porkhammer keeps saying it's good and even better than DR. then why keep questioning the handling just because it's not difficult enough for you?

I think it's more because the way the cars act does not mimic what we see when watching these cars in real life. If you watch an Escort Mk II being driven in a real rally and compare it to how it drives in game, they don't appear to act the same. Maybe that is the underlying physics, maybe that is our setup or driving style - I'm not making judgements on the realism, just playing Devil's Advocate.

[KevM 41]

sqdstr said:

I just don't understand why people always associate sim with having to be difficult.
It's always the first thing they complain about, "oh no this is too easy, surely this cannot be simulation!!"...
If something is easy to do/drive in real life, then why should it be difficult in a game?
I think it was @RallyDriven who said that someone drove a Fiesta R5 in real life and he said it was so easy to drive.
Plus if Meeke and Solberg are satisfied and even @Porkhammer keeps saying it's good and even better than DR. then why keep questioning the handling just because it's not difficult enough for you?

Driving a Rally car is easy.

Driving a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is NOT easy.
Sliding a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is nothing short of Genius.

SO...  Flat out, through a YourStage random track SHOULD be difficult.  

If winning World Rally Championships IS EASY, why have none of us done it, if it's as EASY as Dirt 4 Simulation mode???

Actual LOL at the logic 

[sqdstr 84]

KevM said:

sqdstr said:

I just don't understand why people always associate sim with having to be difficult.
It's always the first thing they complain about, "oh no this is too easy, surely this cannot be simulation!!"...
If something is easy to do/drive in real life, then why should it be difficult in a game?
I think it was @RallyDriven who said that someone drove a Fiesta R5 in real life and he said it was so easy to drive.
Plus if Meeke and Solberg are satisfied and even @Porkhammer keeps saying it's good and even better than DR. then why keep questioning the handling just because it's not difficult enough for you?

Driving a Rally car is easy.

Driving a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is NOT easy.
Sliding a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is nothing short of Genius.

SO...  Flat out, through a YourStage random track SHOULD be difficult.  

If winning World Rally Championships IS EASY, why have none of us done it, if it's as EASY as Dirt 4 Simulation mode???

Actual LOL at the logic 

So what you're saying is that Meeke, Solberg and all others who approved the handling model don't know what they're talking about just because it's too easy for you?
Mmmkay :)

[KevM 41]

sqdstr said:

KevM said:

sqdstr said:

I just don't understand why people always associate sim with having to be difficult.
It's always the first thing they complain about, "oh no this is too easy, surely this cannot be simulation!!"...
If something is easy to do/drive in real life, then why should it be difficult in a game?
I think it was @RallyDriven who said that someone drove a Fiesta R5 in real life and he said it was so easy to drive.
Plus if Meeke and Solberg are satisfied and even @Porkhammer keeps saying it's good and even better than DR. then why keep questioning the handling just because it's not difficult enough for you?

Driving a Rally car is easy.

Driving a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is NOT easy.
Sliding a Rally car at 110mph, through a wet forest you've never been in, is nothing short of Genius.

SO...  Flat out, through a YourStage random track SHOULD be difficult.  

If winning World Rally Championships IS EASY, why have none of us done it, if it's as EASY as Dirt 4 Simulation mode???

Actual LOL at the logic 

So what you're saying is that Meeke, Solberg and all others who approved the handling model don't know what they're talking about just because it's too easy for you?
Mmmkay :)

Dirt4 has all been about the hype & marketing.  I would be confident that Meeke & Solberg's involvement was massively played up for the purposes of marketing sound bytes.

Id say Solbergs son spent a bit of time with RX and it shows, but even he said Rally wasn't up to scratch.

Petter (ex-Subaru works team driver) ironically crashed when he understeered an 'Easy' Grp N Impreza off the Australian road in his gameplay vid

& you can't possibly think that this man...
https://youtu.be/gh_SWN0BsZQ

...validated the handling of a Mk2 Escort???




WAT????

[PaloSamo 0]

Codies admitted that they didn't spent enough time with Kris when working on the game and that older cars didn't get much needed attention too. RX seems to be spot on so obviously Petter and his son (and anyone else involved) have done a good job.

[RallyDriven 266]

When people say driving it is 'easy', what they mean is it's not like wrestling a group b car through a forest. The cars are incredibly predictable, which therefore makes them 'easier'. Driving one fast though takes skill and lots of balls. I can drive quite fast on dirt 4, but to be on the limit and squeezing every bit out of the car is pretty difficult.

I haven't driven the classic cars much, but from what I have driven I didn't think it felt as good as dirt rally in some ways. It feels way to difficult to get the read end out under power in rear wheel drives for example. Although saying that the rwd trucks behaved really nicely, so I don't know what's going on.

[Porkhammer 78]

RallyDriven said:

When people say driving it is 'easy', what they mean is it's not like wrestling a group b car through a forest. The cars are incredibly predictable, which therefore makes them 'easier'. Driving one fast though takes skill and lots of balls. I can drive quite fast on dirt 4, but to be on the limit and squeezing every bit out of the car is pretty difficult.

Easy to get into, hard to master. This is what people fail to grasp.

[RodgerDavies 779]

Porkhammer said:

RallyDriven said:

When people say driving it is 'easy', what they mean is it's not like wrestling a group b car through a forest. The cars are incredibly predictable, which therefore makes them 'easier'. Driving one fast though takes skill and lots of balls. I can drive quite fast on dirt 4, but to be on the limit and squeezing every bit out of the car is pretty difficult.

Easy to get into, hard to master. This is what people fail to grasp.

Agreed, but physics aside, one of my biggest issues is that I can currently roll down a hill, smash a tree, be dragged back to the road and still win a stage (4 second penalty!?), with the hardest settings the game will allow me.

[Slowish 0]

By Sim standards, I would argue that D4 is already dead; it's not even being talked about in the Sim forums I frequent every day where PC2 / rF2 / AC / AMS / DR / RBR do have active threads ongoing.  PC1 has a poor reputation in Sim circles but, PC2 gets miles more attention than D4 does and that says a lot IMO.

As great as RL drivers feedback is, it doesn't necessarily translate directly to games / Sim's; some RL drivers have very little actual game experience and often - none with Simulations, so their perspective may be too narrow to be highly effective. I know that sounds absurd to some but, if you read enough about Pro consultants giving feedback, you might be very surprised to find how little they actually know about Sim's and the hardware being used.

Example: Ben Collins (former Stig / PC1 / PC2 handling consultant) says he is actually quite bad at racing games & worse at Simulations. Here is someone that is very accomplished at racing and can probably drive any RL car fast extremely effectively but, can't play racing games very well yet, gives feedback on game handling. Am I the only one that sees a problem there? At best, he is 50% qualified to serve as a handling consultant IMO; his Sim-perspective is probably quite skewed in regard to what constitutes good "Sim" handling. Of course, Sim's are going to be harder; we are greatly handicapped by having limited information compared to RL driving.

Why do I say that? Simulation relies on our ability to fill in the gaps that are missing from virtual driving. Some people can develop the ability to do so quite quickly while others can't or have no interest at all. Does better hardware enhance our ability to process information into useful handling cues? I would argue that it certainly does but, it's no guarantee of success either. Still, we often see consultants giving feedback based on game-pad use alone or very low-end steering wheels / pedals, which greatly reduces the effective range of information by which we judge car handling.

Pro-driver feedback looks great on paper but, it's far more complex than just writing some checks and increasing sales. I'll take one good handling consultant with both feet firmly planted in the real world and the virtual-Sim world over a thousand Stig's any day. :)

[RallyDriven 266]

The thing is though, where else do you get your feedback? People are very quick to comment on a game, but when was the last time they drove a fiesta r5 through a Welsh forest? I k ow what you're saying, but the alternative is basically guess work and YouTube videos

[KevM 41]

RallyDriven said:

The thing is though, where else do you get your feedback? People are very quick to comment on a game, but when was the last time they drove a fiesta r5 through a Welsh forest? I k ow what you're saying, but the alternative is basically guess work and YouTube videos

Your in a Rally car often, you know what 'feels' right or wrong.  That's relevant when fine tuning a Rally sim.

What we have currently, defies basic real life physics.  You don't need to be a Rally driver to 'feel' that one.

[Slowish 0]

RallyDriven said:

The thing is though, where else do you get your feedback? People are very quick to comment on a game, but when was the last time they drove a fiesta r5 through a Welsh forest? I k ow what you're saying, but the alternative is basically guess work and YouTube videos

I know there are RL Rally drivers with Sim-experience too; the criteria for consulting services should include both IMO. I wouldn't expect 100% agreement among all racers giving feedback but, it should get the handling closer relative to what we players know from Sim experience. With some Road-racing Sim's, there are Racing Teams using them (or a specialized version) for learning, teaching, practice and testing purposes. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen with Rally / RallyX but, I don't know if that's due to the lack of a qualified Rally Sim or lack of demand from Rally Teams.

Still, with proper feedback including both RL and Virtual experience, I'd bet that tarmac handling would be far more convincing than it currently is. FFB plays a big role in how we perceive physics and that's a critical part of getting proper input from drivers so the Sim translates the important information in the right ways. Having some high-end hardware available to push the FFB dynamics to the next level should also provide better results for all wheel users; it also magnifies underlying issues that don't get noticed with common steering systems.

[madwak 0]

Before you write the game off altogether try turning your steering linearity to -7 if you are using a wheel and see how it feels? Codies seem to have messed the steering linearity up somehow because in Dirt Rally
the game felt much better if you used +5 steering linearity but in Dirt 4 it feels better with -5.
Changing the linearity increases the lower speed turn in and gets rid of the slackness around the wheel centre so you feel the ffb quicker when the rear of the car starts to come round on you and the quicker response allows you to catch it easier. Ive tried this on the T300, T500 and Fanatec elite PS4 and in each case it makes the game much more fun especially if you also reduce your DOR to 540 :smile:

[Porkhammer 78]

madwak said:

Before you write the game off altogether try turning your steering linearity to -7 if you are using a wheel and see how it feels? Codies seem to have messed the steering linearity up somehow because in Dirt Rally
the game felt much better if you used +5 steering linearity but in Dirt 4 it feels better with -5.
Changing the linearity increases the lower speed turn in and gets rid of the slackness around the wheel centre so you feel the ffb quicker when the rear of the car starts to come round on you and the quicker response allows you to catch it easier. Ive tried this on the T300, T500 and Fanatec elite PS4 and in each case it makes the game much more fun especially if you also reduce your DOR to 540 :smile:

I have to use +2 linearity in D4 myself, otherwise some cars are undrivable due to overly sensitive steering. This is on my G27 - and according to the in-game tooltip, + linearity makes it less sensitive around the center, and - makes it more sensitive around the center.