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GULF Air Bahrain GP - 2014

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Red Bull are sabotaging his pants? :p

Tbh, I think now we're seeing Vettel in a car that's near enough equal to others around him, and he's currently not doing as well as his less experienced team-mate and it's great. 
To me it's showing that he isn't the best driver as a lot of people have been saying the last few years, it's showing that he's talented but not more so than any other driver and that he took full advantage of having a car that consistently had a half second advantage.

It's also showing that Mark Webber really was kinda rubbish :p
No need to Drag Webber's name through the mud like that  X( and Vettel still uses his Finger but not after the race.

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Well can you give us a reason why Webber was destroyed by Vettel in equal machinery while Ricciardo seems at least on the same level?
It wasn't equal though for Webber. Vettel was clearly #1 and was frequently getting the improved parts and pieces. And as others have mentioned, they basically tuned the cars around what Vettel preferred. In 2014 the cars are likely as equal as they will get considering the rule changes for this season. Webber may not have been been he best, but he had a lot going against him at RB...

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Well can you give us a reason why Webber was destroyed by Vettel in equal machinery while Ricciardo seems at least on the same level?
EBDs. Vettel thrived on them but they're gone now.

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All good points, but surely a good driver can drive around a car that doesn't properly suit him? I can't help but think had Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonen been in Webber's seat between 2010 and 2013, that Vettel would only have half the championships he currently does. And that's even if Red Bull had been making the car to suit Vettel in that time.

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While I agree that Webber wasn't the best driver around, I think ever since 2011 the car was made around Vettel. I mean it suited him in every way that year. It allowed Vettel to consistently get pole, and then cruise to the finish the next day. This was evidenced in every winning streak Vettel had in the past 3 years. The whole of 2011, the Asian races in 2012, and the complete second half of 2013. It was clear that the car was suited to him more in these parts of the season, especially 2011 & 2013. I reckon Webber was the Massa of Red bull as well. He probably didn't get all the major performance updates which would have hindered him even more, this was shown with Massa in 2012, with Alonso being able to get consistent podiums and Massa some times not finishing in the points - even though Massa isn't the strongest of drivers I don't see how that much of a gap can be feasible. 

That's not even including all the bad luck he suffered. Something would go wrong like every other race (slight exaggeration I think), be it KERS problems, pit stop errors, safety cars coming out at the wrong time etc... Yeah Vettel suffered issues as well but not to the same scope as Webber did. The only season Vettel suffered issues more than Mark was 2010, where he had more than double the problems caused out of his hands. Of course Vettel is the better driver out of the 2, but their was more reasons why Webber couldn't match the finger on a consistent basis than a lack of ability imo.

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surely a good driver can drive around a car that doesn't properly suit him?
1) That's why Mark isn't considered a top driver.
2) Good drivers should be able to drive around cars that don't suit them, yes- but it's not that the car didn't suit Mark, more that it specifically suited Vettel. If there wasn't a meaningful performance gap between the two it would suggest that Vettel isn't all that good a driver either- and let's be fair, he's certainly among the top few in F1 today.

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I don't think Mark was as good as Vettel in 2011, second half of 2012 and 2013. Ricciardo is better than Mark in my view, but who knows whether he's better than Vettel.

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1. That's what I said :p 
2. And Vettel isn't. Top few? I'd say he's a top 6/7 driver, but not within the top 3.
1) I see :P
2) I think Alonso's first, Hamilton's second. Behind that it's hard to say as each driver has some fairly substantial weaknesses. Vettel's overly reliant on EBDs + a dominant car. Raikkonen has lost some of his speed from his first stint in F1. Hulkenberg is unproven under the pressure of being in a front-running team. Rosberg was arguably outclassed by Hamilton even in the latter first year in Mercedes. And so on... 

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I'm not sure Alonso is the best driver anymore. From what we've seen this year and last, he seems to be performing to the car rather than outperforming it.

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fIsince08 said:
I'm not sure Alonso is the best driver anymore. From what we've seen this year and last, he seems to be performing to the car rather than outperforming it.
Maybe true in some instances, but who then would you say is the best?

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Liam12d said:
I wish Vettel fan was here, this discussion would have really kicked off. ;)

Hahaha, so true! I asked him on Twitter a while back how he felt about Vettel this year though, and surprisingly he wasn't as gutted as I thought he might be :p

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Liam12d said:
I wish Vettel fan was here, this discussion would have really kicked off. ;)

Hahaha, so true! I asked him on Twitter a while back how he felt about Vettel this year though, and surprisingly he wasn't as gutted as I thought he might be :p
Don't worry, he'll lash out about the same time Vettel does.  :P

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yugin96 said:
fIsince08 said:
I'm not sure Alonso is the best driver anymore. From what we've seen this year and last, he seems to be performing to the car rather than outperforming it.
Maybe true in some instances, but who then would you say is the best?
Hamilton, so far this season at least.

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fIsince08 said:
I'm not sure Alonso is the best driver anymore. From what we've seen this year and last, he seems to be performing to the car rather than outperforming it.
Loss of motivation. 

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Don't think Alonso or Hamilton are top two they were average drivers last year with Alonso mainly in the bottom 10 and Hamilton with a lot of car issues.

This year with Hamilton its seems to be the car rather than Hamilton just like Vettel with the Red Bull, Mercedes were creating this car five years in advance and they got it right the car outperforms everyone else. Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Hamilton but thats the benefit of having a car that was being design for 5 years.

Alonso is still battling around mid top 10 and hasn't really shown any improvement from last year.

Top 3 for me

Rosberg
Hamilton
Ricciardo

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Don't think Alonso or Hamilton are top two they were average drivers last year with Alonso mainly in the bottom 10 and Hamilton with a lot of car issues.

This year with Hamilton its seems to be the car rather than Hamilton just like Vettel with the Red Bull, Mercedes were creating this car five years in advance and they got it right the car outperforms everyone else. Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Hamilton but thats the benefit of having a car that was being design for 5 years.

Alonso is still battling around mid top 10 and hasn't really shown any improvement from last year.

Top 3 for me

Rosberg
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Can I ask how Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Lewis? imo they are pretty much neck n' neck atm. 

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Liam12d said:
Don't think Alonso or Hamilton are top two they were average drivers last year with Alonso mainly in the bottom 10 and Hamilton with a lot of car issues.

This year with Hamilton its seems to be the car rather than Hamilton just like Vettel with the Red Bull, Mercedes were creating this car five years in advance and they got it right the car outperforms everyone else. Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Hamilton but thats the benefit of having a car that was being design for 5 years.

Alonso is still battling around mid top 10 and hasn't really shown any improvement from last year.

Top 3 for me

Rosberg
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Can I ask how Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Lewis? imo they are pretty much neck n' neck atm. 
Last race proved that he had a overall faster car but Lewis muscled his way past on the corners.

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Liam12d said:
Don't think Alonso or Hamilton are top two they were average drivers last year with Alonso mainly in the bottom 10 and Hamilton with a lot of car issues.

This year with Hamilton its seems to be the car rather than Hamilton just like Vettel with the Red Bull, Mercedes were creating this car five years in advance and they got it right the car outperforms everyone else. Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Hamilton but thats the benefit of having a car that was being design for 5 years.

Alonso is still battling around mid top 10 and hasn't really shown any improvement from last year.

Top 3 for me

Rosberg
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Can I ask how Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Lewis? imo they are pretty much neck n' neck atm. 
Last race proved that he had a overall faster car but Lewis muscled his way past on the corners.
Ah, okay I see what you mean. His machinery/setup is better atm, although Hamilton had the upper hand at Sepang in these terms as well, so it's still neck n' neck imo

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Liam12d said:
Liam12d said:
Don't think Alonso or Hamilton are top two they were average drivers last year with Alonso mainly in the bottom 10 and Hamilton with a lot of car issues.

This year with Hamilton its seems to be the car rather than Hamilton just like Vettel with the Red Bull, Mercedes were creating this car five years in advance and they got it right the car outperforms everyone else. Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Hamilton but thats the benefit of having a car that was being design for 5 years.

Alonso is still battling around mid top 10 and hasn't really shown any improvement from last year.

Top 3 for me

Rosberg
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Can I ask how Rosberg seems to be a bit quicker than Lewis? imo they are pretty much neck n' neck atm. 
Last race proved that he had a overall faster car but Lewis muscled his way past on the corners.
Ah, okay I see what you mean. His machinery/setup is better atm, although Hamilton had the upper hand at Sepang in these terms as well, so it's still neck n' neck imo
Yeah mate still neck and neck, would be good to see Alonso or Ricciardo get a win :)

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