Microsoft hands out refunds for Dirt 4 on base of false advertising.

[caerphoto 323]

KevM said:

OK

DiRT Rally - was believable Replica Rolex
DiRT 4 Rallycross - very believable Replica Rolex, even weighs the same as a real one
DiRT 4 Rally - Looks vaguely like a Rolex, but doesn't tell the time.  So is it a watch?  Or just a bracelet that shouldn't be called a watch or a Rolex?

why can they do it with D4 rx, & DR, but make a blunder they aren't correcting with D4 Rally?

You're not doing your position any favours with this ridiculous hyperbole about D4's problems. Ok, we get it, you don't like the game, but there's no need to shit all over it at every opportunity

Moreover, do you even remember how long it took for DR's v2 physics to come out? And that was a smaller title where the devs had much more freedom to update as and when needed.

[KevM 44]

caerphoto said:

KevM said:

OK

DiRT Rally - was believable Replica Rolex
DiRT 4 Rallycross - very believable Replica Rolex, even weighs the same as a real one
DiRT 4 Rally - Looks vaguely like a Rolex, but doesn't tell the time.  So is it a watch?  Or just a bracelet that shouldn't be called a watch or a Rolex?

why can they do it with D4 rx, & DR, but make a blunder they aren't correcting with D4 Rally?

You're not doing your position any favours with this ridiculous hyperbole about D4's problems. Ok, we get it, you don't like the game, but there's no need to **** all over it at every opportunity

Moreover, do you even remember how long it took for DR's v2 physics to come out? And that was a smaller title where the devs had much more freedom to update as and when needed.

Replies like yours, motivate me to comment, more than the game itself.  

Red flag to a bull

[Madhun1967 51]

we are all here because we care about this title and its success.Just because someone has a different way of trying to convey his/her ideas or have a different opinion  ,its still all good brainstorming.

[Dytut 89]

Madhun1967 said:

^ aero wasnt needed.Its needed in a F1 sim,or a WRC 2017 spec sim,IMHO.Lot of other stuff needs ironed out first.Tires,car weight etc.

Ehm... aero was one of the single biggest issues of DR. It was what made it go from the V1 "Push the car into the ground so hard it bogs down and the suspension is overloaded" into V2s "Better while on the ground but hells bells it flies like a paper when it's off the ground". Neither of the aero models were particularly good in DR, and neither was the suspension; those were the two key areas they've worked on for D4 by what I can tell. It works well on some cars, some are weird, some are just broken.

[versedi 39]

Nevermind, I'm going off from this forum. 

[Madhun1967 51]

^ AERO modeling in its infancy if only works while in the air.I guess we needed it,but not me.I want good physics while im on the ground dudes!

[Dytut 89]

versedi said:

Nevermind, I'm going off from this forum. 

Yeah, I'm sticking to a select few threads from now on. 

[JZStudios 631]

KevM said:

OK

DiRT Rally - was believable Replica Rolex
DiRT 4 Rallycross - very believable Replica Rolex, even weighs the same as a real one
DiRT 4 Rally - Looks vaguely like a Rolex, but doesn't tell the time.  So is it a watch?  Or just a bracelet that shouldn't be called a watch or a Rolex?

why can they do it with D4 rx, & DR, but make a blunder they aren't correcting with D4 Rally?

Well,

Dirt Rally - Definitely a cheap knockoff. Worked, fun, but the gold finish flaked off.
Dirt 4 Rallycross - We can call an actual Rolex that even experts would be inclined to agree with.
Dirt 4 Rally - A broken Rolex. It doesn't tell time, but it doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

They question is if and when. They have been suspiciously quiet, especially for a group that's typically been very active.
I can only think that they're either trying to make it a "surprise" or that the higher ups don't want them saying anything.

[JZStudios 631]

caerphoto said:

KevM said:

OK

DiRT Rally - was believable Replica Rolex
DiRT 4 Rallycross - very believable Replica Rolex, even weighs the same as a real one
DiRT 4 Rally - Looks vaguely like a Rolex, but doesn't tell the time.  So is it a watch?  Or just a bracelet that shouldn't be called a watch or a Rolex?

why can they do it with D4 rx, & DR, but make a blunder they aren't correcting with D4 Rally?

You're not doing your position any favours with this ridiculous hyperbole about D4's problems. Ok, we get it, you don't like the game, but there's no need to **** all over it at every opportunity

Moreover, do you even remember how long it took for DR's v2 physics to come out? And that was a smaller title where the devs had much more freedom to update as and when needed.

I could counter this by saying that they released the new (although not perfect... not even great really) physics WHILE under an extreme time crunch still releasing other content at the same time, during which they were actively telling us that new physics were coming. It's the radio silence that makes it concerning. Haven't even seen Paul comment in a few weeks.

[KingOfCoins 286]

JZStudios said:

They question is if and when. They have been suspiciously quiet, especially for a group that's typically been very active.
I can only think that they're either trying to make it a "surprise" or that the higher ups don't want them saying anything.

I have a feeling that they will become more active again after the F1 game comes out. 

[FloatingGrass 0]

Floop

I resurface to briefly agree with KevM. Defending D4's rally handling is pointless, because there's nothing to defend. It's pretty damn flawed.

I submerge into obscurity again.

Fwoorp.

[Operator1 4]

KevM said:

Ferranis said:

Man KevM... can't you just leave it be? Just don't play D4 and be done with it. The constant complaining gets annoying.

Your advice...  just don't play it?

I dont.

What I did do though, was pay for it.  To play it.  Which I don't do.

Kinda why this thread makes sense....

Unfortunately, these days, buying any new games before, at, or very soon after retail release is essentially paying full price to be a post-launch beta tester of goods that are almost guaranteed to be very noticeably problematic, no matter how much pre-launch hype & anticipation there was leading up to launch.

Savvy & discerning consumers have to view retail launch as though it's just a "beta" or "early access" instead of thinking/hoping anything will actually function as advertised/expected. Purchasing before, at, or very soon after retail launch is knowingly paying in full for unfinished and/or defective goods.

Launch quality will not improve until collective buying patterns change and far fewer people rush to buy so quickly. The only thing the law might do to help is force sellers to offer refunds, but since very few buyers actually seek refunds, that's not much of a deterrent. Sellers don't care about customer satisfaction anywhere near as much as they care about sales. So it's up to all of us to change how we buy if we want things to improve. Money talks a lot louder than forum posts & negative reviews.

I prefer to wait until at least a couple of post-launch patches have been released before I consider purchasing games. That way, I get a better-functioning game in return for my money, and I don't ruin my recreational time playing games that annoy me with their problems.

[LittleApple 47]

I hope Codemasters do a demo version of Dirt 4. Just so theres no need for even considering a refund.\\\
Better yet would be devs just declaring how much after release support the game with have. (DLC, handling patches, until Xmas2017 for example)

In saying all that the more i've played this game the more i enjoy the handling but the less content im seeing that will actually extend the games life.

Allot of the stages in career mode are massively boring in thier layout and dont provid layouts that they can flow through i find. They're either too complex or too simple. Night time + heavy rain + fog conditions also occur way too often. They should also take out "cloudy" from as one of the modifiers as the lighting and game graphics look weird/boring.

Playing around with my stage i've seen some sweet stages generated that are almost orgasmic compared to the career tracks.

[caerphoto 323]

FloatingGrass said:

Floop

I resurface to briefly agree with KevM. Defending D4's rally handling is pointless, because there's nothing to defend. It's pretty damn flawed.

That's the thing though, most of the moaning is just blanket "Dirt 4 physics suck". It's not a helpful thing to say, because the situation is more complicated than that. Yes, some things aren't right, but the physics don't appear to be fundamentally broken.

[Slowish 0]

Adding to the handling issues are the fact that there is still no support for DSD controllers which many Sim-enthusiasts use for button boxes, hand-brakes and other control related devices so essentially, CM are not supporting those with more advanced hardware - something that we don't struggle with in Sim circles normally. Does this really seem like CM are serious about Simulation?

[LittleApple 47]

caerphoto said:

FloatingGrass said:

Floop

I resurface to briefly agree with KevM. Defending D4's rally handling is pointless, because there's nothing to defend. It's pretty damn flawed.

That's the thing though, most of the moaning is just blanket "Dirt 4 physics suck". It's not a helpful thing to say, because the situation is more complicated than that. Yes, some things aren't right, but the physics don't appear to be fundamentally broken.

Codemasters must be tearing thier hair out. Problem is most of the feedback on the physics from allot of people is extremely lacking in detail. Theres allot of great points and arguments but they still lack detail in where the problems exist.

Yes some cars have handling issues. But no ones made a indepth list of which cars have issues and what those issues are. It's almost all just general feedback that is lacking in finer detail. Aswell as the time they've invested and the setups and settings they've tried.

Does every car ingame have too much rear grip no matter the setup?
Does every car ingame have god awful understeer under acceleration no matter the setup?
Does every car break from 160 to 0 in 30 metres?
Do cars behave more realistically on Australia than Michigan?
Do cars behave more realistically on Mud than dirt?

Whats scary is theres some cars ingame that have been made perfectly. So we have to identify what is right and what is wrong. I dont see any of that in the feedback threads though. I defintely think the driving physics when driving on mud is extremely accurate..

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

I think driving on the mud in DiRT4 should be muuuch slippier, you can go almost at the same pace than in dry

[kobeshow 0]

LittleApple said:

caerphoto said:

FloatingGrass said:

Floop

I resurface to briefly agree with KevM. Defending D4's rally handling is pointless, because there's nothing to defend. It's pretty damn flawed.

That's the thing though, most of the moaning is just blanket "Dirt 4 physics suck". It's not a helpful thing to say, because the situation is more complicated than that. Yes, some things aren't right, but the physics don't appear to be fundamentally broken.

Codemasters must be tearing thier hair out. Problem is most of the feedback on the physics from allot of people is extremely lacking in detail. Theres allot of great points and arguments but they still lack detail in where the problems exist.

Yes some cars have handling issues. But no ones made a indepth list of which cars have issues and what those issues are. It's almost all just general feedback that is lacking in finer detail. Aswell as the time they've invested and the setups and settings they've tried.

Does every car ingame have too much rear grip no matter the setup?
Does every car ingame have god awful understeer under acceleration no matter the setup?
Does every car break from 160 to 0 in 30 metres?
Do cars behave more realistically on Australia than Michigan?
Do cars behave more realistically on Mud than dirt?

Whats scary is theres some cars ingame that have been made perfectly. So we have to identify what is right and what is wrong. I dont see any of that in the feedback threads though. I defintely think the driving physics when driving on mud is extremely accurate..

You honestly think there is more information that the community could provide to help the devs?
Without looking at the physics code itsself, there is nothing more we as players can provide them. Sure some posts are not detailed, but if you read through the "Constructive Criticism" -thread there should be no more questionmarks if you have access to the game's code, the only challenge right now is figuring out how to fix it, not figuring out what is wrong with the game.

In case I am totally off base here, CM should just flat out state what kind of information they would need from the players. "All feedback is welcome, we cannot comment on the issue" will get you the kind of inaccurate feedback you are talking about, and even then there are already community members who have gone above and beyond.

[JZStudios 631]

KingOfCoins said:

JZStudios said:

They question is if and when. They have been suspiciously quiet, especially for a group that's typically been very active.
I can only think that they're either trying to make it a "surprise" or that the higher ups don't want them saying anything.

I have a feeling that they will become more active again after the F1 game comes out. 

In another month? Great, people haven't already abandoned the title asking Microsoft for a refund based off false advertising.

Operator1 said:

KevM said:

Ferranis said:

Man KevM... can't you just leave it be? Just don't play D4 and be done with it. The constant complaining gets annoying.

Your advice...  just don't play it?

I dont.

What I did do though, was pay for it.  To play it.  Which I don't do.

Kinda why this thread makes sense....

Unfortunately, these days, buying any new games before, at, or very soon after retail release is essentially paying full price to be a post-launch beta tester of goods that are almost guaranteed to be very noticeably problematic, no matter how much pre-launch hype & anticipation there was leading up to launch.

Savvy & discerning consumers have to view retail launch as though it's just a "beta" or "early access" instead of thinking/hoping anything will actually function as advertised/expected. Purchasing before, at, or very soon after retail launch is knowingly paying in full for unfinished and/or defective goods.

Launch quality will not improve until collective buying patterns change and far fewer people rush to buy so quickly. The only thing the law might do to help is force sellers to offer refunds, but since very few buyers actually seek refunds, that's not much of a deterrent. Sellers don't care about customer satisfaction anywhere near as much as they care about sales. So it's up to all of us to change how we buy if we want things to improve. Money talks a lot louder than forum posts & negative reviews.

I prefer to wait until at least a couple of post-launch patches have been released before I consider purchasing games. That way, I get a better-functioning game in return for my money, and I don't ruin my recreational time playing games that annoy me with their problems.

  2 things:
1. Mass Effect Andromeda
2. Your little end quote footnote whatever thing is too long and annoys me.
https://youtu.be/7KWkao73HuU

Slowish said:

Adding to the handling issues are the fact that there is still no support for DSD controllers which many Sim-enthusiasts use for button boxes, hand-brakes and other control related devices so essentially, CM are not supporting those with more advanced hardware - something that we don't struggle with in Sim circles normally. Does this really seem like CM are serious about Simulation?

I'm just curious what in D4 you find needs to be mapped to a button box. Button handbrakes suck. I guess you could do lights/wipers, which the game does automatically and doesn't really affect much. Otherwise I can't think of anything that needs a button box.

[Slowish 0]

JZStudios said:

KingOfCoins said:

JZStudios said:

They question is if and when. They have been suspiciously quiet, especially for a group that's typically been very active.
I can only think that they're either trying to make it a "surprise" or that the higher ups don't want them saying anything.

I have a feeling that they will become more active again after the F1 game comes out. 

In another month? Great, people haven't already abandoned the title asking Microsoft for a refund based off false advertising.

Operator1 said:

KevM said:

Ferranis said:

Man KevM... can't you just leave it be? Just don't play D4 and be done with it. The constant complaining gets annoying.

Your advice...  just don't play it?

I dont.

What I did do though, was pay for it.  To play it.  Which I don't do.

Kinda why this thread makes sense....

Unfortunately, these days, buying any new games before, at, or very soon after retail release is essentially paying full price to be a post-launch beta tester of goods that are almost guaranteed to be very noticeably problematic, no matter how much pre-launch hype & anticipation there was leading up to launch.

Savvy & discerning consumers have to view retail launch as though it's just a "beta" or "early access" instead of thinking/hoping anything will actually function as advertised/expected. Purchasing before, at, or very soon after retail launch is knowingly paying in full for unfinished and/or defective goods.

Launch quality will not improve until collective buying patterns change and far fewer people rush to buy so quickly. The only thing the law might do to help is force sellers to offer refunds, but since very few buyers actually seek refunds, that's not much of a deterrent. Sellers don't care about customer satisfaction anywhere near as much as they care about sales. So it's up to all of us to change how we buy if we want things to improve. Money talks a lot louder than forum posts & negative reviews.

I prefer to wait until at least a couple of post-launch patches have been released before I consider purchasing games. That way, I get a better-functioning game in return for my money, and I don't ruin my recreational time playing games that annoy me with their problems.

  2 things:
1. Mass Effect Andromeda
2. Your little end quote footnote whatever thing is too long and annoys me.
https://youtu.be/7KWkao73HuU

Slowish said:

Adding to the handling issues are the fact that there is still no support for DSD controllers which many Sim-enthusiasts use for button boxes, hand-brakes and other control related devices so essentially, CM are not supporting those with more advanced hardware - something that we don't struggle with in Sim circles normally. Does this really seem like CM are serious about Simulation?

I'm just curious what in D4 you find needs to be mapped to a button box. Button handbrakes suck. I guess you could do lights/wipers, which the game does automatically and doesn't really affect much. Otherwise I can't think of anything that needs a button box.

Some Direct-drive wheel users (Custom wheels) may have a DSD controller for their wheel-plate buttons / DSD hydraulic Hand-brake (what I have) / Brake mods (load cell) may use a DSD controller, and more with B-boxes aside. My wheel has a different button plate / controller that happens to work but, I agree that button use is not ideal for hand-braking - hence the reason for spending on better gear.

I don't know of any other Sim that has such issues so why shouldn't the controller be supported in this case?

[Operator1 4]

LittleApple said:

caerphoto said:

FloatingGrass said:

Floop

I resurface to briefly agree with KevM. Defending D4's rally handling is pointless, because there's nothing to defend. It's pretty damn flawed.

That's the thing though, most of the moaning is just blanket "Dirt 4 physics suck". It's not a helpful thing to say, because the situation is more complicated than that. Yes, some things aren't right, but the physics don't appear to be fundamentally broken.

Codemasters must be tearing thier hair out. Problem is most of the feedback on the physics from allot of people is extremely lacking in detail. Theres allot of great points and arguments but they still lack detail in where the problems exist.

Yes some cars have handling issues. But no ones made a indepth list of which cars have issues and what those issues are. It's almost all just general feedback that is lacking in finer detail. Aswell as the time they've invested and the setups and settings they've tried.

Does every car ingame have too much rear grip no matter the setup?
Does every car ingame have god awful understeer under acceleration no matter the setup?
Does every car break from 160 to 0 in 30 metres?
Do cars behave more realistically on Australia than Michigan?
Do cars behave more realistically on Mud than dirt?

Whats scary is theres some cars ingame that have been made perfectly. So we have to identify what is right and what is wrong. I dont see any of that in the feedback threads though. I defintely think the driving physics when driving on mud is extremely accurate..

I don't pay game companies so that I can test their games, run full diagnostics, analyze defects, do extensive troubleshooting, explore different solution possibilities, file detailed issue reports, and wait for fixes. That's what professional developers & testers get paid to do, and that's what I would expect my purchase price to have already paid for.

If some fans are dedicated enough to donate days/weeks of their free time to do game companies' work for them, that's their choice - but in general, it's unreasonable to expect paying customers to go that far.

And while there may have been a number of vague "handling sucks" types of reviews/reports, there has also been quite a lot of much more detailed feedback on this forum, in reviews, on YouTube, & through other various online outlets. I don't think anybody can reasonably claim that there hasn't been enough feedback or enough useful feedback.

[MrDeap 12]

caerphoto said:

It's not false advertising. The game is more realistic in most respects, it's just a small issue with traction that's debatably a bit off. Claiming false advertising is just vindictive nonsense.

It's false advertising. Braking distance, cornering speed & the car dynamic is off by a large margin only by looking at replay & gameplay.

[Slowish 0]

It certainly seems to me that CM knows Rally Games and that's what is their primary focus - nothing wrong in that but, there is too much that suggests that they don't know the Sim market very well because the handling issues and lack of hardware support speak volumes. I'm hard-pressed to find any fellow Sim-racers that talk about D4 - much less actually play it after having tried it. It's primary mention is often for reference in regard to titles that make Sim-related claims and then fail to deliver; sad state of affairs considering the positive response after Dirt Rally, warts and all.

[BorisTheFrog 0]

tilithom said:

Just got my refund and all needed was to tell chat person what codies told us but didn't deliver.

Yes you can. There is game, Dirt 4 I bought, like many others because developers promised that it's going to be more realistic than game before but sadly it didn't turn out to be true, that sentence were; "If you loved the challenge of DiRT Rally, then you can switch to the Sim Handling mode and have an experience that is even closer to the real deal than we managed to achieve with DiRT Rally." 10.06

Minä But it's not, internet is full of complains about that and it's simply false advertising. They have not updated it at all into direction they promised and now I would have my money taken away from them. 10.07

Back to Dirt Rally it is, please make DLC for it.

It's always kind of baffled me as to why anyone would actually want to pay a premium amount for a digital download as opposed to a considerably cheaper (and resellable) physical copy - especially when you consider the general quality of today's AAA software and the not very consumer friendly t&c regarding digital refunds.
 Taking that into consideration, anyone who actually believes a paragraph of marketplace sales patter as opposed to a wealth of freely available user information...or swoons over any digitally exclusive carrots is, well, a fool to themselves and kind of waivers any grounds for complaint.
 
Just for the record though; Microsoft will grant you a singe digital refund per year on any purchase without question (that is common knowledge), with any thereafter subject to terms and conditions - so unless you're one of those serial refunders who find complaint with every single item you buy then your D4 refund has got absolutely nothing to do with the game quality or product description. It was merely a gesture from a man called John or Chris with suspiciously Asian sounding accent.