Please Nerf the Assists - Assists Users Exploiting Setups

[Operator1 4]

FRACTURED said:

Operator1 said:

Disallowing/disabling assists in lobbies does not guarantee clean racing.

NOPE, BUT IT DOES A PRETTY GOOD JOB. HAVE YOU COME ACROSS MANY NO ASSISTS GRIEFERS??? NO ASSISTS DRIVERS, ON THE WHOLE, ARE CLEANER BECAUSE THEY KNOW CONTACT CAN MESS THEM UP AND THEY ARE DRIVING THE TRACK AND NOT THE GREEN LINE.

DISABLING AUTO BRAKING DEFINITELY GUARANTEES LESS ACCIDENTS  B)


If you're not using assists and you get hit by someone who is also not using any assists, you would spin the same way as you would if you get hit by someone who is using assists.

YOU WILL BOTH BE AWARE THAT TOUCHING WILL LIKELY LEAD TO A CRASH SO YOU'LL ALLOW SPACE FOR EACH OTHER OR SOMEONE WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE LOBBY. IF YOU DO CONTACT, BOTH CARS ARE AFFECTED. ASSISTED CAR REACTS COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY. PENALTIES TEND TO BE ASSESSED AGAINST THE UNASSISTED DRIVER EVEN IF HE DIDNT INSTIGATE CONTACT.


How would anybody know whether or not anybody else in a lobby or on a leaderboard is using any assists if the game did not provide any on-screen assist indicators and if players didn't admit/volunteer that information themselves? If nobody could tell, would anyone care?

YOU CAN TELL IN THE WAY THEY CANT DRIVE A TRACK BUT CAN DRIVE TO THE RACE LINE...USUALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING INTO THE BACK OF YOU UNDER BRAKING BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY THE LINE CANT ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THE BRAKING NEEDS ADJUSTED TO ACCOUNT FOR THE EXTRA TOW AND THE FACT THERE IS A FREAKING CAR IN FRONT.

...

I think your points (in bold caps above) make more assumptions & generalizations about players than about assists. Usage or avoidance of assists is no direct indicator of players' behaviors or sportsmanship.
There are fast players who use assists, and there are slow players who use assists.
There are clean players who use assists, and there are dirty players who use assists.
There are fast players who do not use assists, and there are slow players who do not use assists.
There are clean players who do not use assists, and there are dirty players who do not use assists.

[Operator1 4]

lolschrauber said:
Assist users can be more reckless and many of them are.

Anybody can be reckless, and many are, regardless of whether or not they have any assists enabled.

[lolschrauber 2]

Operator1 said:

lolschrauber said:
Assist users can be more reckless and many of them are.

Anybody can be reckless, and many are, regardless of whether or not they have any assists enabled.

Yes. And having assists enabled will easily enable me to kick others out without myself suffering from the incident at all.

[FRACTURED 30]

Operator1 said:

I think your points (in bold caps above) make more assumptions & generalizations about players than about assists. Usage or avoidance of assists is no direct indicator of players' behaviors or sportsmanship.
There are fast players who use assists, and there are slow players who use assists.
There are clean players who use assists, and there are dirty players who use assists.
There are fast players who do not use assists, and there are slow players who do not use assists.
There are clean players who do not use assists, and there are dirty players who do not use assists.

Yawn. Nice Verbal Venn. You forgot about helping me out by explaining how all those nice little categories then have further sub group of pad and wheel  :o

Normally I agree with you on a lot of things but with this I must assume you do not race online unassisted?

Why is there a generalisation in the first place? If running assists mean you are not getting penalised equally for the same transgressions, can you see how there would be comparatively more people who will drive like a donkeys sphincter because they can get away with it? Dirty players will keep the assists as it will help them.

[speeddemon8021 0]

Operator1 said:

FRACTURED said:
Yes, it punishes no assists racers. Good luck getting clean or full lobbies, you are getting auto spun by anybody with assists on whilst they always end up pointing right direction...

Disallowing/disabling assists in lobbies does not guarantee clean racing.

If you're not using assists and you get hit by someone who is also not using any assists, you would spin the same way as you would if you get hit by someone who is using assists.

How would anybody know whether or not anybody else in a lobby or on a leaderboard is using any assists if the game did not provide any on-screen assist indicators and if players didn't admit/volunteer that information themselves? If nobody could tell, would anyone care?

You very definitely auto spin off a traction control user if you run TC off you only have to make the slightest contact and your gone that is fact.That is just one aspect of the imbalance that exists between assists on/off there are a few more that I cba to go into.I don't think anybody wants a punishment for one or the other we just want a balanced game and right now it's not right.

[CompLex1986 18]

FRACTURED said:

CompLex1986 said:

Also, how do you want controller users to keep up with wheel users if you want to punish assist players?

There are still built in assists to help. Many many racers do so unassisted on pad. It's simple after some trying but who wants to try when it's easier to just run all the assists and turn the difficulty down until we win.

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. It is actually extremely difficult if not impossible to race unassisted with a controller. I've tried it myself.

[PJTierney 4,908]

CompLex1986 said:

FRACTURED said:

CompLex1986 said:

Also, how do you want controller users to keep up with wheel users if you want to punish assist players?

There are still built in assists to help. Many many racers do so unassisted on pad. It's simple after some trying but who wants to try when it's easier to just run all the assists and turn the difficulty down until we win.

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. 

A number of Classic F1 cars have built-in traction control; it is most notable with the Williams FW14B, Ferrari F2004 and the Renault R25. This kicks in even if the player has TCS disabled.

[lolschrauber 2]

CompLex1986 said:

FRACTURED said:

CompLex1986 said:

Also, how do you want controller users to keep up with wheel users if you want to punish assist players?

There are still built in assists to help. Many many racers do so unassisted on pad. It's simple after some trying but who wants to try when it's easier to just run all the assists and turn the difficulty down until we win.

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. It is actually extremely difficult if not impossible to race unassisted with a controller. I've tried it myself.

Impossible? Yeah right.

[FRACTURED 30]

Hahaha. Whatever you think yourself. You've tried it but I have done it as have many others. There are built in assists to help with traction and steering input. Pretty sure that's previously been acknowledged by the developer

[CompLex1986 18]

PJTierney said:

CompLex1986 said:

FRACTURED said:

CompLex1986 said:

Also, how do you want controller users to keep up with wheel users if you want to punish assist players?

There are still built in assists to help. Many many racers do so unassisted on pad. It's simple after some trying but who wants to try when it's easier to just run all the assists and turn the difficulty down until we win.

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. 

A number of Classic F1 cars have built-in traction control; it is most notable with the Williams FW14B, Ferrari F2004 and the Renault R25. This kicks in even if the player has TCS disabled.

Oh really??? I now know that you guys are just f**king with people to get your way.

[NickDahy 0]

Alright guys unfortunately the thread has devolved quite a lot so I think this will be my final post... 

The main point of this thread was for CM to notice that the need is to reconsider "balancing the assists" and take into account that when they go to "balance" them that they have to make sure they are doing so while exploiting setups and not just doing it based off of a baseline setup and comparing the two.  On the same setup they are fairly close and it may depend more on the track, but TRL Limitless showed that they are a bit quicker.

Another key factor is how you can be more consistent over many laps, hence why I supported keeping them a little slower, especially for race pace on harder compounds.

Wet weather is a whole other issue... but I am not going there.

I figure this will be really hard to accomplish, hence I always felt that they needed to implement some kind of tuner so when they get out of control like they are starting to, just tune them down a bit.  Then if the assists are too slow they can bump them back up. 

I just want a balanced game guys that's really all I a want and when I drive I don't want to feel like I'm beating cheated or punished.  I feel like that is something everyone can agree on.

[F3Tz 9]

CompLex1986 said:

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. It is actually extremely difficult if not impossible to race unassisted with a controller. I've tried it myself.

Sry if this knocks you out of the skies.....there are many AOR players who are using a pad (AOR is a league that prohibits any kind of assists in Tier 1). TRL Limitless or TRL Martin are the most known AOR pad players. Martin is a former AOR champion and both of them are just beasts in terms of raw pace without assists on the pad, espacially in the wet! Sry but i think you're just not familiar enough with the pad.

NickDahy said:

Alright guys unfortunately the thread has devolved quite a lot so I think this will be my final post... 

The main point of this thread was for CM to notice that the need is to reconsider "balancing the assists" and take into account that when they go to "balance" them that they have to make sure they are doing so while exploiting setups and not just doing it based off of a baseline setup and comparing the two.  On the same setup they are fairly close and it may depend more on the track, but TRL Limitless showed that they are a bit quicker.

Another key factor is how you can be more consistent over many laps, hence why I supported keeping them a little slower, especially for race pace on harder compounds.

Wet weather is a whole other issue... but I am not going there.

I figure this will be really hard to accomplish, hence I always felt that they needed to implement some kind of tuner so when they get out of control like they are starting to, just tune them down a bit.  Then if the assists are too slow they can bump them back up. 

I just want a balanced game guys that's really all I a want and when I drive I don't want to feel like I'm beating cheated or punished.  I feel like that is something everyone can agree on.

That is the point. All the time. We don't want to blame any assists player. We don't want to punish less "skilled" players. We just don't want an unblanced and broken game in terms of exploits. Exploits you will only get when you turn on medium TC and ABS.



To be honest I play on pc and the pc version seems to be balanced quite nice compared to the console versions. Furthermore i'm a no assists player who is between 50th-100th place at the TT leadboards on most tracks. So my problem is my inability to find the limit of the physics and not the assists users who exploit the setups. It's a matter of principle for me and I think everyone will agree on the following points:

-It is satisfying to be able to drive a car in a simulation game on your own limit with the assists that are given from the car itself and not the game.
-It is satisfying to have good pace in a racing game and winning against other people.
-A good racing simulation game should fullfil both of the points mentioned above.

In my eyes the third point isn't given. The game just doesn't provide a blance between assists and no assists that is good enough. Neither for an assists user nor for a non assists player. The assists player won't have the satisfaction of driving the car with the assists given from the car itself. The no assists player won't be abeld to compete against medium TC and ABS on the consoles, even if they drive on the limit of the physics provided by the game.

This is just my opinion on this topic and i totally understand why NickDahy started this thread. There should be no reason to feel offended for anyone. So let's just hope that Codies are aware that this a controversial topic and that they will come up with a good solution. At the end of the day we are all in the same boat.

[Operator1 4]

FRACTURED said:

Operator1 said:

I think your points (in bold caps above) make more assumptions & generalizations about players than about assists. Usage or avoidance of assists is no direct indicator of players' behaviors or sportsmanship.
There are fast players who use assists, and there are slow players who use assists.
There are clean players who use assists, and there are dirty players who use assists.
There are fast players who do not use assists, and there are slow players who do not use assists.
There are clean players who do not use assists, and there are dirty players who do not use assists.

Yawn. Nice Verbal Venn. You forgot about helping me out by explaining how all those nice little categories then have further sub group of pad and wheel  :o

Normally I agree with you on a lot of things but with this I must assume you do not race online unassisted?

Why is there a generalisation in the first place? If running assists mean you are not getting penalised equally for the same transgressions, can you see how there would be comparatively more people who will drive like a donkeys sphincter because they can get away with it? Dirty players will keep the assists as it will help them.

I'm certainly not against the idea of having the option for multiplayer lobby hosts to restrict their lobby settings and disallow assists for all players in their lobby. If no-assist players want to race alongside only other no-assist players, I agree that the option should be available.

The only point I was making is that I don't think any in-game assists should be designed & built to intentionally result in slower lap times.

[F3Tz 9]

Operator1 said:

The only point I was making is that I don't think any in-game assists should be designed & built to intentionally result in slower lap times.

I know and I agree with you.
Still the assists aren't designed & built to exploit the setups neither. Less "skilled" players won't be slower if you ban the possibility to exploit the setups with assists, cuz they aren't abled to use the exploits very effectively. If they try and learn to use them i wouldn't call them less "skilled" anymore.

NickDahy said it already this thread was starting to miss the point and i hope that all of you can agree with the point NickDahy wants to make.

[CompLex1986 18]

F3Tz said:

CompLex1986 said:

You are lying. There are no built-in assists. It is actually extremely difficult if not impossible to race unassisted with a controller. I've tried it myself.

Sry if this knocks you out of the skies.....there are many AOR players who are using a pad (AOR is a league that prohibits any kind of assists in Tier 1). TRL Limitless or TRL Martin are the most known AOR pad players. Martin is a former AOR champion and both of them are just beasts in terms of raw pace without assists on the pad, espacially in the wet! Sry but i think you're just not familiar enough with the pad.

NickDahy said:

Alright guys unfortunately the thread has devolved quite a lot so I think this will be my final post... 

The main point of this thread was for CM to notice that the need is to reconsider "balancing the assists" and take into account that when they go to "balance" them that they have to make sure they are doing so while exploiting setups and not just doing it based off of a baseline setup and comparing the two.  On the same setup they are fairly close and it may depend more on the track, but TRL Limitless showed that they are a bit quicker.

Another key factor is how you can be more consistent over many laps, hence why I supported keeping them a little slower, especially for race pace on harder compounds.

Wet weather is a whole other issue... but I am not going there.

I figure this will be really hard to accomplish, hence I always felt that they needed to implement some kind of tuner so when they get out of control like they are starting to, just tune them down a bit.  Then if the assists are too slow they can bump them back up. 

I just want a balanced game guys that's really all I a want and when I drive I don't want to feel like I'm beating cheated or punished.  I feel like that is something everyone can agree on.

That is the point. All the time. We don't want to blame any assists player. We don't want to punish less "skilled" players. We just don't want an unblanced and broken game in terms of exploits. Exploits you will only get when you turn on medium TC and ABS.



To be honest I play on pc and the pc version seems to be balanced quite nice compared to the console versions. Furthermore i'm a no assists player who is between 50th-100th place at the TT leadboards on most tracks. So my problem is my inability to find the limit of the physics and not the assists users who exploit the setups. It's a matter of principle for me and I think everyone will agree on the following points:

-It is satisfying to be able to drive a car in a simulation game on your own limit with the assists that are given from the car itself and not the game.
-It is satisfying to have good pace in a racing game and winning against other people.
-A good racing simulation game should fullfil both of the points mentioned above.

In my eyes the third point isn't given. The game just doesn't provide a blance between assists and no assists that is good enough. Neither for an assists user nor for a non assists player. The assists player won't have the satisfaction of driving the car with the assists given from the car itself. The no assists player won't be abeld to compete against medium TC and ABS on the consoles, even if they drive on the limit of the physics provided by the game.

This is just my opinion on this topic and i totally understand why NickDahy started this thread. There should be no reason to feel offended for anyone. So let's just hope that Codies are aware that this a controversial topic and that they will come up with a good solution. At the end of the day we are all in the same boat.

How do they compare to wheel users?

[stephensmattlee 239]

lolschrauber said:

stephensmattlee said:

I do kind of wish it was more like f1 2013, the assists on it slowed you down so much compared to the AI that you had no choice but to master the game without assists to be fast enough  :D

People don't like challenge, they just want to be fast for bragging rights.

"I don't use assists, just TC on medium"
"I don't use assists, just racing line"

Every other racing game ever: "I use cockpit cam because it's realistic"
Every other racing game ever when it comes to F1 cars, or F1 game itself: "I use T-Cam because *insert stupid excuse here*"

Heard those sentences way too often.

I love the people who claim that T-Cam is no assist or advantage, yet they absolutely need it to hit the apex. It's really pathetic.

Oddly enough F1 2013 was my first f1 game, believe me it was a challenge as an introducrion to the series, but, instead of put me off the game it actually motivated me to want to get better and learn to play the game without the assists once I realised they were slowing me down so much.
Even now on the odd occasion I still fire up the old ps3 and have a go at 2013 so it definitely seems to have good replay value to me.
I think if the game had been too easy from the get go then there'd be less of an incentive to want to learn to play without any of the assists, but instead by having a clearer advantage of learning to control the car manually without aids, it should be represented somewhat in the overall lap times and make you want to progress and become more skilled at the game. 

I know CM want to make the games accessible and appeal to newcomers so can understand why they would have assisted players be competitive alongside non-assist players, but who knows, maybe in time the non-assisted players will come out on top?

Definirely ageee there should probably be a separate leaderboard segregating the two though. 

[F3Tz 9]

CompLex1986 said:

How do they compare to wheel users?

AOR has not startet on F1 2017 yet. The last Season was Season 13 on F1 2016.
TRL Martin got 2nd in Season 13, though he missed three of the 15 races.

I tried both games with the pad and F1 2016 was much harder on the pad. The input lag was just ridiculus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_dPseT5Fow
This is a hotlap of TRL Martin on F1 2016 with a pad cam.

[coach83 0]

Haha pad has built in assists. It has to otherwise you couldn't drive at all with the pad.
codemasters confirmed this when they said they balanced the pad users in the wet weather so closer matched to wheel.

[wtsds 0]

This is so ridiculous. I do not know why the codemaster wants to help both those who do not know how to play to be so fast. In f1 2013 if you used assists you were slower. Why not do it in f1 2017?

You practice practice and some only use medium traction and abs do not have to worry about workouts. it is much easier and faster to use medium traction. It should at least separate the times of those who use assists from those who do not use.

[lolschrauber 2]

wtsds said:

You practice practice and some only use medium traction and abs do not have to worry about workouts. it is much easier and faster to use medium traction. It should at least separate the times of those who use assists from those who do not use.

Well, if I am like #300 on a leaderboard, I at least know it's actually 150-200 if you don't count all assist guys, I doubt they'll split the leaderboards.

[NickDahy 0]

F3Tz said:

CompLex1986 said:

How do they compare to wheel users?

AOR has not startet on F1 2017 yet. The last Season was Season 13 on F1 2016.
TRL Martin got 2nd in Season 13, though he missed three of the 15 races.

I tried both games with the pad and F1 2016 was much harder on the pad. The input lag was just ridiculus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_dPseT5Fow
This is a hotlap of TRL Martin on F1 2016 with a pad cam.

They have fixed the delay on the pad so it is more balanced in 2017.  I feel wheel and game pad are the most balanced they have ever been.  Of course some tracks can favor one a little over the other but it is close enough.

Definitely more balanced than assists vs non assists ;)  so lets keep that wheel vs pad for another thread guys :)

[CompLex1986 18]

Limitless actually tested assist vs non-assist and it was very close.

[NickDahy 0]

CompLex1986 said:

Limitless actually tested assist vs non-assist and it was very close.

Note that he said even after trying 2 laps its obvious that assists are better and he was using a non-assist setup.  So if he abused the setup and got used to the assists he'd be even faster.

[Rinehart27 25]

lolschrauber said:

Are you serious with that last bit? Of course assists are a lot faster. No, they won't overcome that handicap because it's done right.

Do you know this for a fact???

I'm (now) quicker with ABS off,  it took a lot of perseverance but once I got used to it and learnt the limits I got there. Yes the ABS assist prevents lock up, but its a compromise, the max retardation is not as high. I'll concede that it's probably quicker over a race as it cuts out mistakes, but over a lap, I totally disagree. 

Sorry to say this, but I read a lot of people's comments masquerading as awesome drivers who think it's unfair that the "assist" drivers are faster - which rather belies the fact that they're leaving lap time on the table...

[lolschrauber 2]

Rinehart27 said:

lolschrauber said:

Are you serious with that last bit? Of course assists are a lot faster. No, they won't overcome that handicap because it's done right.

Do you know this for a fact???

I'm (now) quicker with ABS off,  it took a lot of perseverance but once I got used to it and learnt the limits I got there. Yes the ABS assist prevents lock up, but its a compromise, the max retardation is not as high. I'll concede that it's probably quicker over a race as it cuts out mistakes, but over a lap, I totally disagree. 

Sorry to say this, but I read a lot of people's comments masquerading as awesome drivers who think it's unfair that the "assist" drivers are faster - which rather belies the fact that they're leaving lap time on the table...

Yes. Using assists is faster. What settings for assists are the fastest, I can't tell you just like that. Because I don't use that crap. But we've all seen plenty of comparison videos as well as ridiculous ghosts with assists ourselves. 

The big issue are not assist themselves, but, as the thread title says, setup exploits which are not possible without assists. ABS enables you to use more break pressure more easily, so I can't imagine that it'd be a lot slower. At least in wet conditions, it'll definitely give you a good advantage, at least if non-assist users use regular settings for pedals, which, at least for my device, are really not good at all for wet conditions.