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Ok @flowaangelz a JCB is now not big enough.

Can we get one of those tunneling machines they used to make the channel tunnel in here.  
You can make  yourself a bigger hole then.  

LOL
























































LOL






























































































LOL

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If you play from the moon, you can be 10 seconds quicker.  

No gravity, or wind resistance on your thumbs, and the parts inside the hdd run faster. 

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Input lag explained on PC


Quick Intro To Input Lag

A long-time Blur Busters favorite is AnandTech’s Exploring Input Lag Inside And Out, which covers whole-chain input lag in detail, illustrating the button-to-pixels latency. This is the latency, in milliseconds, between a mouse button press, and light being emitted from pixels, seen by human eyes. This is above-and-beyond display lag, and includes several parts, such as mouse lag, CPU, GPU, frame transmission, and LCD pixel response.

longlag  bestcase

Credit: AnandTech; diagrams of the whole input lag chain.

The important point is that while pixel response may be only 2ms, the whole chain input lag can be several tens of milliseconds, and even a hundred milliseconds. There are many factors that can influence input lag, including low game tick rate (e.g. Battlefield 4, which runs at a very low tick rate of 10 Hertz) as well as intentionally added latency (e.g. realistic in-game gunshot latency that more resembles a slightly random latency of a physical gun).

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I get no noticeable input lag on pc or xbox.  
I never have. 

Connection lag and server lag yes.  

But I've never steered left and wondered when it's going to turn. 

60 fps is not making me any faster. Any time I set on pc I can set on the xbox and vice versa.....down to a tenth. 


Frame rate doesn't make time pass differently. It just looks different. 

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Most PC input devices nowadays have a USB polling rate of 500/1000hz more than enough to keep up, PS3 has 100hz and Xbox has 125hz, this means that a PS3 controller has 10ms delay and Xbox has 8ms delay as opposed to the PC's 1ms delay, easily worked out by taking 1000 and dividing it by the polling rate.

So there is a small difference but probably not picked up in reality, but if you add an Xbox or PS3 to a TV which has let's say a 10ms response time that is going to make a bigger delay i.e PS3 20ms and Xbox 18ms, this is compared to a PC monitor which a gaming one has a typical 2ms response so added to a 1ms response on a mouse or wheel will make 3ms, quite a difference in response times between the two.

Although we are talking milliseconds and most people won't notice a lot of hardcore gamers would tell the difference, I can instantly tell the difference between 60FPS and 120FPS without knowing what it is set at, it is the feel of the game at a higher refresh rate.

Lets say you have a G25 connected to a PC and also connected to a console, if you did a lock to lock as fast as you could on the wheel a PC will always be faster than a console because of response rate, but this is steering (also applies to mouse) pushing a button would make less of an impact.

I would say the only way to test it is to plug a wheel in that will run on both and see which feels faster.
You say I'm wrong, but how am I wrong?

Just because the USB poll speed on a PC is higher than on a console, that doesn't mean the game itself will respond that quickly. I play a lot of games on console and PC using the same controller, internet connection and monitor (I have both a 1ms GTG gaming monitor and a 32ms Samsung TV), and the response times are completely the same regardless of platform and excluding the latency caused by the display itself. You misread what I said, and are also not taking into account that the reasons that most Xbox 360 and PS3 controllers have lag are because the majority of them are wireless controllers running on an old wireless band (2.4Ghz I believe) and those wireless controllers do in fact have some latency.

I in fact see a noticeable difference between using a wireless 360 pad and a wired 360 pad. It got to the point that playing Blur mandated a wired controller simply because it responded quicker.

However, this latency is just in the connection between controller and console. As I said (and I know this for a fact because I have done some minor game development, as well as beta testing of several games) that the games generally do not read inputs on a per-poll basis but on a per-frame basis. This is usually I think to save on the amount of processing done by the game (from where it might otherwise be calculating responses to inputs that are completely unseen due to them happening over a series of frames that are never rendered), but what I said remains true; Grid, Grid 2 and GAS only poll the input when they update the visible rendered frames. It doesn't read the inputs at 500/1000 Hz but only at the frame rate and this does mean that a higher frame rate does lead to a higher response time in terms of controller input, but a copy of GAS running at 30fps on the PC will respond with identical latency to the console versions. Not to mention, that GAS and Grid 2 are the only games I know of that run at such a high physics speed (Trackmania runs at 300Hz for example, Forza I think runs at 400, I've played some games that ran at 100 or even at 30 (cough Blur)) and therefore the fact that an input device can theoretically output responses once every 1ms is irrelevant because the majority of other games don't even run at a high enough physics rate for them. There also wouldn't be such a big 'deal' over 72/120/144Hz monitors, as the main reason people buy them is for the -- surprise surprise --improved response speed in inputs in games, because the human eye physically can't perceive the difference at those sorts of refresh rates.


If you don't believe me, you haven't played Head 2 Head or Touge online on a console on grid 2. the game stuttered like crazy for some reason at the starts of those races and my controller inputs always became sluggish. You should be thankful that games have moved from having 'locked' frame rates and don't go into slowdown when the frame rates drop, like they used to in the Golden Days.

Besides, this whole argument is irrelevant to my original point - that the game's underlying physics engine is identical on all consoles and the only differences are in the responsiveness of the controls, and thus that people should be capable of identical times regardless of platform.

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I agree about the wireless vs wired and also you say about both being at 30fps would yield the same results, they would, but as you said that higher refresh rates will get a better response time on PC then surely reaction time would be quicker on the PC if you were hitting 120fps on the PC the input time is going to be greatly reduced enabling quicker reactions.

The polling rate would really only be relevant when the frame rate could exceed the input rate ie if you could run an Xbox/PS3 at 200fps then the input polling rate would cause lag as the input can't keep up?

So taking the diagram above on PC there is a lot you can do to improve your overall response times and make inputs quicker and smoother, this must make a small difference in lap times over a console for the same person on whatever input device they are used to?

To be honest I am really talking from a PC view and that is what I am used to, always upgrading to make sure I have the max fps and is always more than my monitor can handle so I know I wont get slowdown due to the monitor refresh rate (Titanfall comes to mind), which as you say can be tied to GPU or monitor performance, I don't use Vsync, I prefer to let the frames hit their max and see what sort of adjustments to make to get it hovering around my monitor rate to avoid screen tear.

My console knowledge is limited I only owned a PS1/2 and I have a 360 which has dust on it, maybe I'll fire it up and try it with my G25 if that would work, anyone got a free copy of GAS for the 360 they want to donate for an experiment?


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@Kazzymac, I just read your edited post and a couple of things spring to mind.

You say that the human eye can't determine more than these refresh rates but the human brain/hand interface can respond quicker to the allowed faster input, that old wives tale of the eye cannot see more than 30fps is the same old one they came out with when they invented speed, if you travel at over 15mph or something silly you couldn't breathe! the eye can see the difference between 30/60/120fps maybe not so much after that, or I should say the connection between eye, brain and limbs.

If you race a car in real life your reactions speed up the quicker you go,  it's a natural effect.

On your last point you say 'the only differences are in the responsiveness of the controls, and thus that people should be capable of identical times regardless of platform.', surely if the response time is quicker the lap can be better, I am really talking about races here more than TT as you have to react quicker to your surroundings with other players etc and quick overtakes and shimmys can be more reactive?

Also take into account on the PC with a wheel you can feel the physics at work with the forces on the wheel, you can feel understeer and oversteer as it pulls on the wheel, you can feel a slide and a wheel will naturally start to pull back to line, I honestly think in a race situation with 11 other human players you have a better chance of a clean win (not lap time) with a PC and wheel than you will with a controller and console.






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Alert no beer = fast 


Alert 1 beer = faster

Alert 3 beers = slower

Tired no beer = slow 

Tired 1 beer = slower

Tired 3 beers = forget it :)

Ed, Obviously in game only, not on road :o

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 Apparently my xbox is running at 60FPS..............That cant be right can it??? 

720p @ 60 FPS input
720p @ 60 FPS output

If I set it to 1080p it changes the output to 30FPS, but still says its gettin 60FPS in.  

Im not sure that this the case. 

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/927749-xbox-360/67180575

ok maybe it can. 

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It would seem that many games on the PS3 and on the 360 play @60 FPS. 

The difference between the PC and the consoles would seem to be the fact that the pc can run 60FPS in very high detail.  

So, the PC should NOT be faster due to 60FPS.......because it looks like Autosport is 60 FPS on the xbox.  

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I'm not going to compare fast people until we get a challenge without AI.

Fact of the matter is, AI exists and they can be abused via slipstream + ramming for faster times. I also don't have tuning on my Mustang because nobody races Muscle. I'm certainly sure Replay is a better driver than I am, but I'm just sick of comparing times with the AI in question.

Sure, it can come down to time trial, and that's valid, but I have little to no reason to go and achieve a good time in time trial, as opposed to punching in a time as fast I can for a prize.

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I'm not going to compare fast people until we get a challenge without AI.

Fact of the matter is, AI exists and they can be abused via slipstream + ramming for faster times. I also don't have tuning on my Mustang because nobody races Muscle. I'm certainly sure Replay is a better driver than I am, but I'm just sick of comparing times with the AI in question.

Sure, it can come down to time trial, and that's valid, but I have little to no reason to go and achieve a good time in time trial, as opposed to punching in a time as fast I can for a prize.
This "argument" was about 60fps making your lap times faster, compared to 30fps.  

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This argument is nonsensical and pointless. Lap times from the Eibach challenge were thrown into discussion, and that's where I made my points. But thanks for trying to disregard my words.

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LOL no problem.  

Thanks for getting upset, over nothing.  

I havn't disregarded any of your comments, I simply said what I said.  

I had no comment to add to yours. 

The AI dont get in the way if you wait for them to almost lap you.  :smile: 

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They don't get in the way if you wait, and I know that. But you can still abuse them for faster times just like the Intel Challenge was all about. Also, I'm not upset. I'm just dumbfounded that the first reply would be from you telling me what's going on, when I clearly have eyes and can read what was said. ;)

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@RTAnoskills, I tried to stay out of this and give a technical slant on it but you are just abusing people, @Amphydoodle and @Flowaangelz, are very good racers, you and I have raced together and we both can do it, so can these guys, I have raced Flow a few times and he is quick, I haven't raced Amph yet but I have seen his lap times, you are butting heads with the wrong racers on PC.

As we did RTA, do the talking on the track.......

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@RTAnoskills, I tried to stay out of this and give a technical slant on it but you are just abusing people, @Amphydoodle and @Flowaangelz, are very good racers, you and I have raced together and we both can do it, so can these guys, I have raced Flow a few times and he is quick, I haven't raced Amph yet but I have seen his lap times, you are butting heads with the wrong racers on PC.

As we did RTA, do the talking on the track.......
Well put man , well put!!

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Well If you check page 1......IM asked  a question, which I answer.  

Then there a a few replies, and @flowaangelz replies,  I quote him, and make a joke,  then Im jumped on,  LOL 

Now were talking frame rates, and @Amphydoodle starts saying about comparing fast people,  I simply stated that we were talking frame rates.    I didnt want to comment about AI etc, as thats errrrrrrrrrr.......off topic?  a bit?  maybe?  In a thread about the fastest platform.....whats AI got to do with price of cheese?

Im jumped on again LOL
So im sorry if thats seen as ME abusing people.  

When bitten, I bite back.  

Ive made 3 posts to do with the frame rates, since all the techno bable (very intersting stuff) and you come on to tell me im abusing people,  LOL

So now we dont care now whether or not 60FPS make you quicker?  
Also my discovery that 360 is infact 60fps capable.  

But nooooooooooooooooooooo  lets all jump on RTA again,  he abusing people.  LOL LOL ok. 

@Flowaanglez im sorry I called you slow,   
Im sorry that you think frame rate is going to make you faster. 
(btw - no lap time makes me think.....no lap set........thats all! ) 

@V8relentless.....all the best for your PS4 and drive club.......counting the days for you  here.....back in the cage untill then please.  Well put sir, well put!






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If you read, which I did, many a times were lap times thrown into conversation. Did you read any of page 3? That almost entire page is chock full of discussion of the lap times in the Eibach Challenge. Just because I didn't see the thread until now doesn't mean my input into that conversation is completely nullified or off topic. I'm entitled to my own input in accordance to anything that's been said in the topic, so I gave it. And yeah, I see you as abusing people.

Simply put, I have no time for you to be on your high pompous chair, spouting rude comments just because you think your opinion is golden and you have the most important word of law. You're childish, and I've seen your crap all over the forums. Can it for a sec, bud. Your attitude is exactly what we don't need. Man up, or shut up. /endofftopicrant (Sorry guys, someone seriously needs to learn a lesson.)

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