Playing DiRT Rally for the first time after 3 months of DiRT4

[DarraghLynch 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uI2qCRo1zM&t=2s

Decided to do a video on my thoughts going back to DiRT Rally after a few months of only playing DiRT4... its pretty clear which game is more enjoyable to play from a genuine Rally Fans perspective....

[mesa 624]

I did the same, back to Dirt Rally instead of playing Dirt 4 and I was the same happy man, when DR Early Acces was released!
Dirt Rally is a rally simulator , i can feel the speed again with fear on the fast narrow stages...
And those brilliants environments. Real stages, not only one 2D  grass models -which always turning its face to your car in D4-, many type of trees, vegetations, sections, fast jumps, realistic looking spectators instead of low poly looped animated charachters...
The car handling is flawless (except tarmac)! 

What i missed in Dirt Rally from Dirt 4 is the marshalls, the service park, the better lights and the real sound of the Lancia Integrale.
These should add to Dirt Rally 2 and i would be the happiest man on the planet :)

[KevM 44]

Yes, going back to Rally after 4, actually put a silly smile on my face in the opening minutes of the first stage.  It's just 'right'.  (Sorry 4) :(

[bogani 756]

KevM said:

Yes, going back to Rally after 4, actually put a silly smile on my face in the opening minutes of the first stage.  It's just 'right'.  (Sorry 4) :(

There are elements of D4 thst surpasses DR though, but yeah, DR is on another level. It just lives and breathes so much more than D4.

If we could merge DR's gravel feeling with the high speed behaviour and braking of D4 we would have a winner.

Add WRC 7's stages and it would be rally heaven.

[KevM 44]

D4 braking??  Killed me in a forest many many times.  Just  Nope...

[bogani 756]

KevM said:

D4 braking??  Killed me in a forest many many times.  Just  Nope...

It behaves much more realistic than DR, but ok. Whatever floats your boat.

[KevM 44]

Iv probably drivin close to a quarter of a million miles or more in real life.  Never have I ever braked in a car and violently swapped ends in doing so, like in DiRT 4.  If a production car ever did brake as per D4, many lives would be lost.
I can, however, say with confidence, that I HAVE braked & slid a car into a corner/junction many many times in real life, the same way as I can in DiRT Rally.

[bogani 756]

KevM said:

Iv probably drivin close to a quarter of a million miles or more in real life.  Never have I ever braked in a car and violently swapped ends in doing so, like in DiRT 4.  If a production car ever did brake as per D4, many lives would be lost.
I can, however, say with confidence, that I HAVE braked & slid a car into a corner/junction many many times in real life, the same way as I can in DiRT Rally.

I had similar issues in D4 the first couple of days when my brake pedal jumped from 50 to 100% in a hearbeat, but have had no such thing after I recalibrated.

I've competed on gravel for many years, and if my brake pedal was as easy and straight forward to use as in DR, well, that would have made everything much easier.

Braking upsets the car in real life. In DR you can abuse the brakes as much as you like with extremely small consequenses.

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

bogani said:

KevM said:

Iv probably drivin close to a quarter of a million miles or more in real life.  Never have I ever braked in a car and violently swapped ends in doing so, like in DiRT 4.  If a production car ever did brake as per D4, many lives would be lost.
I can, however, say with confidence, that I HAVE braked & slid a car into a corner/junction many many times in real life, the same way as I can in DiRT Rally.

I had similar issues in D4 the first couple of days when my brake pedal jumped from 50 to 100% in a hearbeat, but have had no such thing after I recalibrated.

I've competed on gravel for many years, and if my brake pedal was as easy and straight forward to use as in DR, well, that would have made everything much easier.

Braking upsets the car in real life. In DR you can abuse the brakes as much as you like with extremely small consequenses.

I agree with you @bogani , there are some bugs in D4 physics, but in braking is sublime, perfect recreation

[KevM 44]

I fully agree, but in real life, have you ever set your brake bias to the rear to go into a gravel stage “to upset the car” in the quest for authenticity?  No is the answer. Doesn’t make sense to do it in real life, so why set a simulation up to do it?  

Dirt Rally got the car balance and behaviour bang-on, but in your own words, was too forgiving.  We wanted less grip.  It’s what we asked for.  The DR balance, but with less of the grip.

What we got, was more grip and snap loss of control “in the name of realism”.  That’s not accurate.  The RX cars dont even do it, so why is it acceptable in Rally?

I imagine DiRT Rally was, in its entirety, created by a small group of guys that ‘got rally’.  They understood the sport and were passionate about it.  I imagine DiRT 4 was produced rather than crafted, & on a larger scale.  It was overseen by the same team, but the production was outsourced to a bigger team that ‘don’t get rally’.  To Joe Bloggs, they may LOOK & SOUND like Rally cars, LOOK like Rally stages, but to a Rally fan, they just aren’t right.

Its been said before, the Chinese can set up a production line to quickly make a good replica watch, to a very high standard & very good value.  It looks right, weighs the same, but unless it’s lovingly hand-made by a Swiss master craftsman using the finest raw materials, it’s just not a proper Rolex.  It will even fool many normal people, but any enthusiast can spot a fake a mile off....

[bogani 756]

I still believe the core physics in D4 is better than DR. The problem is how the gravel tire interacts with the gravel surface. The gravel tire does behave brilliantly on the broken tarmac in DirtFish, so if they could just get the gravel feel, they could create excellent mixed stages.

The tarmac tire is still awkward. Many cars behave extremely strange out on the Spanish stages. After I've gone back to DR I must say the cars behave better in Germany than in Spain.

When it comes to gravel, I believe the stages themself are a big part of the problem. No realistic flow to the road, many strange cambers and undulations in all possible places. 

[shadow118 18]

bogani said:

The tarmac tire is still awkward. Many cars behave extremely strange out on the Spanish stages. After I've gone back to DR I must say the cars behave better in Germany than in Spain.

I think the problem with DR tarmac was FFB and not so much the physics of the cars. The cars behave kinda ok, but the FFB was too light, it should've been stronger than on gravel. In D4 it's the other way round

[bogani 756]

Didzis said:

bogani said:

The tarmac tire is still awkward. Many cars behave extremely strange out on the Spanish stages. After I've gone back to DR I must say the cars behave better in Germany than in Spain.

I think the problem with DR tarmac was FFB and not so much the physics of the cars. The cars behave kinda ok, but the FFB was too light, it should've been stronger than on gravel. In D4 it's the other way round

Yes, exactly. The FFB was the biggest problem. Way too soft and mushy on tarmac. Once you hit the gravel it gets stronger, which is very backwards. It should be tighter on tarmac than on gravel due to increased friction.

[KevM 44]

As with WRC 7, loads of folk get a bad feel through the wheel and assume a problem with the physics.  FFB can be the issue more often than not.  Iv had many an argument on here that DR tarmac was ok.

[Porkhammer 78]

KevM said:

Iv had many an argument on here that DR tarmac was ok.

It was, until V2 came along. ;)

[cjl9 12]

Well, I still like the feel of tarmac. Having done tarmac rallies IRL on both road tyres and racing tyres, DR grip levels seem OK to me.

[Peter Mathen 61]

KevM said:

Yes, going back to Rally after 4, actually put a silly smile on my face in the opening minutes of the first stage.  It's just 'right'.  (Sorry 4) :(

Yes that's it. Exactly the same feeling on my side. A few seconds in Dirt Rally immediately brings back the fun and the permanent smile. 

[Slowish 0]

I actually liked the overall handling on Dirt Rally Tarmac but, I felt the grip levels were a bit high.  The FFB between Dirt and Tarmac was correct using SimCommander FFB and it was very evident in RallyX in dirt / tarmac transitions.  I still think SimCommander FFB is the best possible FFB for the title - period.

The OSW is more refined and capable overall with new Firmware but, it's the telemetry-based FFB that gets best results with Dirt Rally.

In AMS using the OSW, I can feel the front-tire Grip-loss in gradients, as though the virtual tires rubber is elastic and stretching, all the while - conveying variations in surface contours; it's quite amazing.  Unfortunately, AMS and rF2 seem to be the only titles that produce that level of detail although, I suspect iRacing can also based on Bodnar SS2 system reviews.

[bogani 756]

Slowish said:

I actually liked the overall handling on Dirt Rally Tarmac but, I felt the grip levels were a bit high.  The FFB between Dirt and Tarmac was correct using SimCommander FFB and it was very evident in RallyX in dirt / tarmac transitions.  I still think SimCommander FFB is the best possible FFB for the title - period.

The OSW is more refined and capable overall with new Firmware but, it's the telemetry-based FFB that gets best results with Dirt Rally.

In AMS using the OSW, I can feel the front-tire Grip-loss in gradients, as though the virtual tires rubber is elastic and stretching, all the while - conveying variations in surface contours; it's quite amazing.  Unfortunately, AMS and rF2 seem to be the only titles that produce that level of detail although, I suspect iRacing can also based on Bodnar SS2 system reviews.

We also must consider the types of tarmac. German roads is very different from any asphalt/tarmac race track and I'm not sure what kind of tires are simulated in Monte Carlo.

How do the tarmac FFB differ from the gravell FFB in SimCommander?

[Slowish 0]

bogani said:

Slowish said:

I actually liked the overall handling on Dirt Rally Tarmac but, I felt the grip levels were a bit high.  The FFB between Dirt and Tarmac was correct using SimCommander FFB and it was very evident in RallyX in dirt / tarmac transitions.  I still think SimCommander FFB is the best possible FFB for the title - period.

The OSW is more refined and capable overall with new Firmware but, it's the telemetry-based FFB that gets best results with Dirt Rally.

In AMS using the OSW, I can feel the front-tire Grip-loss in gradients, as though the virtual tires rubber is elastic and stretching, all the while - conveying variations in surface contours; it's quite amazing.  Unfortunately, AMS and rF2 seem to be the only titles that produce that level of detail although, I suspect iRacing can also based on Bodnar SS2 system reviews.

We also must consider the types of tarmac. German roads is very different from any asphalt/tarmac race track and I'm not sure what kind of tires are simulated in Monte Carlo.

How do the tarmac FFB differ from the gravell FFB in SimCommander?

Perhaps a valid point about tarmac but, many tracks have varied types of tarmac (asphalt / concrete / old / new / pavers) and reflect those difference grip values but, they tend to be relatively subtle differences overall compared to tarmac vs dirt.

Using SimCommander FFB, the grip level of tarmac tends to be higher than dirt - very much so.  The transitions can feel pretty extreme at times (Under hard cornering / acceleration) especially, when running higher steering-torque levels.

[bogani 756]

Slowish said:

bogani said:is

Slowish said:

I actually liked the overall handling on Dirt Rally Tarmac but, I felt the grip levels were a bit high.  The FFB between Dirt and Tarmac was correct using SimCommander FFB and it was very evident in RallyX in dirt / tarmac transitions.  I still think SimCommander FFB is the best possible FFB for the title - period.

The OSW is more refined and capable overall with new Firmware but, it's the telemetry-based FFB that gets best results with Dirt Rally.

In AMS using the OSW, I can feel the front-tire Grip-loss in gradients, as though the virtual tires rubber is elastic and stretching, all the while - conveying variations in surface contours; it's quite amazing.  Unfortunately, AMS and rF2 seem to be the only titles that produce that level of detail although, I suspect iRacing can also based on Bodnar SS2 system reviews.

We also must consider the types of tarmac. German roads is very different from any asphalt/tarmac race track and I'm not sure what kind of tires are simulated in Monte Carlo.

How do the tarmac FFB differ from the gravell FFB in SimCommander?

Perhaps a valid point about tarmac but, many tracks have varied types of tarmac (asphalt / concrete / old / new / pavers) and reflect those difference grip values but, they tend to be relatively subtle differences overall compared to tarmac vs dirt.

Using SimCommander FFB, the grip level of tarmac tends to be higher than dirt - very much so.  The transitions can feel pretty extreme at times (Under hard cornering / acceleration) especially, when running higher steering-torque levels.

Is the FFB stronger on tarmac than on gravel?
Using the in-game FFB it's stronger on gravel than on tarmac.

[Slowish 0]

bogani said:

Slowish said:

bogani said:is

Slowish said:

I actually liked the overall handling on Dirt Rally Tarmac but, I felt the grip levels were a bit high.  The FFB between Dirt and Tarmac was correct using SimCommander FFB and it was very evident in RallyX in dirt / tarmac transitions.  I still think SimCommander FFB is the best possible FFB for the title - period.

The OSW is more refined and capable overall with new Firmware but, it's the telemetry-based FFB that gets best results with Dirt Rally.

In AMS using the OSW, I can feel the front-tire Grip-loss in gradients, as though the virtual tires rubber is elastic and stretching, all the while - conveying variations in surface contours; it's quite amazing.  Unfortunately, AMS and rF2 seem to be the only titles that produce that level of detail although, I suspect iRacing can also based on Bodnar SS2 system reviews.

We also must consider the types of tarmac. German roads is very different from any asphalt/tarmac race track and I'm not sure what kind of tires are simulated in Monte Carlo.

How do the tarmac FFB differ from the gravell FFB in SimCommander?

Perhaps a valid point about tarmac but, many tracks have varied types of tarmac (asphalt / concrete / old / new / pavers) and reflect those difference grip values but, they tend to be relatively subtle differences overall compared to tarmac vs dirt.

Using SimCommander FFB, the grip level of tarmac tends to be higher than dirt - very much so.  The transitions can feel pretty extreme at times (Under hard cornering / acceleration) especially, when running higher steering-torque levels.

Is the FFB stronger on tarmac than on gravel?
Using the in-game FFB it's stronger on gravel than on tarmac.

The self-aligning torque (SAT) is stronger on tarmac by quite a bit. In Rx mode for example, the wheel pulls much harder as it transitions onto tarmac surfaces during corning and under power (Torque-Steer / FWD / AWD). It can still be felt in other cases but, those mentioned above stand out.

[KevM 44]

Should be stronger force on sealed surface due to the tyre grip transmitting more force through the suspension geometry

but more vibration feedback on gravel due to the texture of the surface 

[GRUFFCENTAUR 0]

Went back to DR myself after a spell away. forgot how good it felt to be driving that game with a wheel, its so good. You know what you have to do Codemasters. Make it and the people will buy it. £££££££

[Slowish 0]

KevM said:

Should be stronger force on sealed surface due to the tyre grip transmitting more force through the suspension geometry

but more vibration feedback on gravel due to the texture of the surface 

Indeed, and it does work that way. I've always had a different opinion of DR FFB because what I felt through the wheel seems so different from what others describe. It was only after I spent time using the game FFB that I realized how different they can feel. That's why I have stated that the way the game physics (DR) are translated into FFB is not ideal based on the differences. In titles such as AC / AMS / rF2, there is very little difference between the two approaches to FFB using this steering system so it shows that the methods used are quite optimal.

I'm not suggesting the results are perfect with AC/ AMS / rF2 but, the physics / steering / suspension information is being output from the game properly. Any issues then tend to be signal-clipping / hardware limitations / driver settings related so with certain wheels, the FFB tuning process is greatly simplified. With titles such as the Dirt Series, R3E, Pcars 1&2, there are many more parameters to influence the resulting FFB (although, PC2 is simplified).

For a different example: with the SimuCube OSW steering-system used with rF2, the only parameters I need to adjust in total are two; overall FFB strength and Reconstruction filter - that's it, and the results would amaze you - I promise. Why? Because the fundamental physics are sound and translated through FFB output very effectively.  Beyond that, it's hardware limitations or driver-tuning options that create most of the confusion regarding FFB for players.