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@Loore & Codemasters: What has been done to address Grid 2's online ramfest & dirty players?

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As we all know one of the biggest reasons Grid 2 failed online was due to the 'Do anything to win' theme of the game and this wasn't helped by the handling model, extreme collisions between 2 cars, especially cars ramming the car in front at corners, online flashbacks and no Forward Collisions Only which we had in Grid 1. The only action taken by Codemasters was to penalise the dirty players with a Red exclamation mark against their name which not surprisingly did nothing to deter the dirty players. 

Now some of this may be alleviated by the return to Grid 1's handling model, a reduction in the over the top arcade speed of Grid 2 cars especially tier 3 and 4, and cars that don't easily swerve all over the road as pointed out by MiatakiasGR on a few other threads.

As I suggested on the old forum one major way to deal with ramming would be to replicate the car on car collision model we had in Grid 2's Overtake races where if you tried to ram one of the AI cars it would not result in an extreme collision and actually slowed down your car, the same result when you tried to swipe them off the track as you passed them, a technique the dirty players in Grid 2 used all the time.

Another suggestion I just thought of, any player that eventually gets a red exclamation mark for persistant ramming becomes ghosted for a certain amount of time and has their top speed reduced...

So can Loore or anyone else at Codemasters please let us know what has been done to address these issues.

Thanks

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kick voting is back isnt it?
thats both a deterrent and an answer imo.

or is that just wishy-washy hearsay, i dunno, theres a lot of noise at the mo.

Of course, if the old name switcheroo is gonna be as easy as it was in grid1, then even that wont help....but at least its a valiant effort.....if true.

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kick vote is back only on playlist, on custom is on the host.
so if you are fast and who host is jealous u got a kick.
Good handling to avoid crasher just with drivestyle, collision forward and kick vote democratic.

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Will there be an OFFICIAL " Collisions Off " playlist this time?  As a GRID 2 victim (and someone who reluctantly played 'dirty' himself sometimes in GRID 2), this is a prerequisite for paying anything close to full price for this game.  

If not, I'll have to wait for a deep discount since I'll be sticking to single player only, if that.

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So you saying in custom the only one who can kick is the host?
if so....

well then you just do it as we did in grid 1.

an online, in-game community WILL form if the game is good.
names will become known.
good times will be had.


the only downside of this [from grid1 days] is that the noob can become a little excluded as unknown names are sometimes immediately removed by the host or kickvote...whatever is in force..
As will be known names who crash and spoil be removed from the server also.

good hosts will become as important as good gameplay.

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Goonertez, this is a professional game developer we're talking about.  The success of the game can't revolve around some "treehouse" mentality of everyone knowing everyone.  

They simply need to include a collisions off OFFICIAL playlist.  Simple enough solution.

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Democracy (voting) is not the solution. Democracy su*** on gaming because so does the people in 90% of the cases.

Dedicated servers is the way to go. Full admin monitoring (fascism like a tu** called It in another thread), and the one who doesn't like that, then go look for another server.

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since grid2 the multiplayer online of grid games is totally messed up.
Grid1 was okay, just fix few stuff and was perfect. But no everything must be screwwed up.
so:

- tuning online (i hate that, who ask for that ??
 grid is just about race, not a multilevel field of racing where u see guys overtake u cause have better tuned car. Was the reason of ebay car 5%faster fixed on 1.3patch of grid2 ? (now u cannot know anymore if a guy is faster because better driver or better tuner)
- flashbacks (who need that and who ask for that online ????????????? )
- trackcut penalties (just a little push near the corner and you race is over)
- host kickvote into custom (nice arbitrary justice and host jelous kick fast racers than him), so one more reason to avoid join custo lobbys.
- spectate mode is a dream
- no text chat
- voice chat that become a mute all.
- automatic only not a option
- u cannot choose a car once a race is already started

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hola said:
Democracy (voting) is not the solution. Democracy su*** on gaming because so does the people in 90% of the cases.

Dedicated servers is the way to go. Full admin monitoring (fascism like a tu** called It in another thread), and the one who doesn't like that, then go look for another server.
you know how many little di..s will kick u if you are faster than them ? lol kick vote or nothing. i don't accept any kick from host, who host ? what right have to kick others ?

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OnLiveTig said:
Goonertez, this is a professional game developer we're talking about.  The success of the game can't revolve around some "treehouse" mentality of everyone knowing everyone.  

They simply need to include a collisions off OFFICIAL playlist.  Simple enough solution.
coll off is not the answer....coll off becomes TT for multiplayer imo.
yes its fun, i did it meself lots in grid, but its no replacement for col fwd where you have to actually make a pass, not drive thru a ghost.

coll off falls short of propper door to door racing where impact is possible and likely [in touring]

unfortunately, if idiots do persist in GAS, then the treehouse mentality you refer to will become apparent.

it worked before and will work again...it might be sad, but it is true.

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Your cars retain damage now, meaning you'll have to pay to repair them. If someone's going to drive really reckless then they are going to pay the price, literally.

The new handling will also have a big part in it, with GRID 2 a lot of the crashes came from people not know what lines to take around a corner; and with a dozen players all trying to drift around the same corner it wasn't always a pleasant experience. 

Another side effect of the handling model is that it will likely attract a different sort of player, it's a semi-sim racing game, not an arcade driving game like GRID 2.

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GOOD TO HEAR ABOUT ITS SEMI-SIM AND NOT ARACDE LIKE GRID 2....i agree with flash-stealth , its ebtter a democratic vote system , than the host just to kick whoever he wants...in many game that is like that i have got kicked because i was faster than him , or my flag did not like him , or whatever..ok the solution is to host your own lobby , or to join in a friend's lobby , but i would prefer kick vote system in custom lobbies too..:)

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Loore said:
Your cars retain damage now, meaning you'll have to pay to repair them. If someone's going to drive really reckless then they are going to pay the price, literally.

The new handling will also have a big part in it, with GRID 2 a lot of the crashes came from people not know what lines to take around a corner; and with a dozen players all trying to drift around the same corner it wasn't always a pleasant experience. 

Another side effect of the handling model is that it will likely attract a different sort of player, it's a semi-sim racing game, not an arcade driving game like GRID 2.
agree about handling, is the best way to avoid crashers, just a good drivestyle and good car handling.
About persistent damage, i'm not sure if this will work as deterrent... you can explain better how work that ? and if someone can find funny crash other with semi-demolited car just to make them pay ?

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lol the trollers will block the narrow passings after long straights to make them the others to pay a lot..ok but always happened this in grid series , especially in grid 1 , and i ahve to tell that i had fun even with it (trying to avoid the rammers and blockers) ..if handling - physics and some more things we ask from this game are good , i can live even with that...
:P

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persistent damage can be one much more a reason to crash instead to avoid that... i need to know more info how work that

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Loore said:
Your cars retain damage now, meaning you'll have to pay to repair them. If someone's going to drive really reckless then they are going to pay the price, literally.

The new handling will also have a big part in it, with GRID 2 a lot of the crashes came from people not know what lines to take around a corner; and with a dozen players all trying to drift around the same corner it wasn't always a pleasant experience. 

Another side effect of the handling model is that it will likely attract a different sort of player, it's a semi-sim racing game, not an arcade driving game like GRID 2.
If a better handling/physics is what you have in store in order to stop the crashers, then we are done. Did you know Forza has very good physics and handling and It's got hundred of rammers online too?

What do you think about a TOCA penalty system style that can be also tuned?, 1 hit and you are out of the race for example, so that you prevent that crasher from destroying the race of a second victim. Everyone forced to drive clean by fearing the system.

If you don't implement a penalty system that doesn't miss a trick then there's nothing more to talk about. You like crashing; you encourage crashing, like on Grid2, dDirt2, 3, etc, because you have to keep kids happy and also because your damage system is so cool looking, right?

....

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As has been mentioned, 'clean driving' is something all racing games struggle to achieve online at times, unfortunately there's only so much that can be done game side as soon as you add human element into it then it's a completely different kettle of fish.We can't, unfortunately, control how other people drive.

That said, with the different handling style compared to GRID 2 I do think that will help things, I also believe because we've put more emphasis on custom lobbies then like minded drivers will soon find themselves racing together. It's not going to be a fix and by any means I don't think it's going to stop people driving aggressive, those that are that way inclined will always drive that way.

You get more rewards in GRID Autosport for driving cleanly than compared to GRID 2 as well, so if you want to progress (faster) then you're going to want to drive in a way in which will see you bringing home your car safe and sound.

@FlashStealth we'll be talking more about this soon, within the first few weeks of May I believe. 

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hola said:
Loore said:
Your cars retain damage now, meaning you'll have to pay to repair them. If someone's going to drive really reckless then they are going to pay the price, literally.


What do you think about a TOCA penalty system style that can be also tuned?, 1 hit and you are out of the race for example, so that you prevent that crasher from destroying the race of a second victim. Everyone forced to drive clean by fearing the system.

If you don't implement a penalty system that doesn't miss a trick then there's nothing more to talk about. You like crashing; you encourage crashing, like on Grid2, dDirt2, 3, etc, because you have to keep kids happy and also because your damage system is so cool looking, right?

....
WOW - an adjustable penalty system.
The game collect thousand of informations each race - why not use some of that to let the host decide how much is "enough"?
At least put it into some level adjustment:
Off = "everything allowed"
Soft : 5 touches allowed, including 3 accidential push of another car into gravel. Break max. 1 wing off other cars.
Medium: 4 touches allowed, including 1 accidential push of another car into gravel etc. No wing breaking.
Hard: 3 touches allowed, incuding 1 accidential push of anther car into gravel etc.
Extreme: 2 touches allowed.

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Yeah, the thing with "a penalty system that doesn't miss a trick" is that it's pretty much the Holy Grail of racing games - and just as elusive.

It's the nature of the beast I'm afraid, in that any penalty system essentially amounts to detecting contact between two players and then asking the computer to decide who was at fault, or even if it was just a 'racing incident'. There's nothing wrong with a bit of contact here and there - rubbing is racing, after all - but trying to create a system that can differentiate between fair contact and unfair contact and then assign blame accordingly? That is a very tricky thing.

So with these things in mind, encouraging clean racing and making it less difficult for drivers of any skill level to race cleanly is the most important step, I think. Prevention is preferable to punishment, at least in my own view.

Loore speaks of changes to the handling model that help, so from a handling perspective the cars tend not to snap out of control so suddenly and also the way the collision physics works has been adjusted so it's harder to just get punted clean off the road. Then beyond the physics there are a few additional mechanics to encourage clean racing and we've tried to give players a bit more spatial awareness with more useful cameras this time around. 

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@Britpoint Ahh well yeah.. I might have been forgetting for a moment that it's not always your own fault if you hit another car.. etc.. etc..
I know that it can be really hard to gather all that info necessary to fullfill a "fair" penalty system.
Not only the information, but the fairness as well.

Still, I see places where F1 (and thereby other games as well) could (easily??) improve for that.
Let's take the example where a car in front of you suddently brake (on the straight), hoping to hit his rear into your frontwing.
You get the penalty, he gets your wing knocked off :)
It has been used a lot online by people who - for one reason or another - didn't really liked the race to be fair.

Anyway - if you push another car into gravel more than once, it might be an expression about the drivers skills, which is a big part of the penalty system's
purpose as well (seen from the hosts pow. ?)

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Britpoint said:
 There's nothing wrong with a bit of contact here and there - rubbing is racing, after all - but trying to create a system that can differentiate between fair contact and unfair contact and then assign blame accordingly? That is a very tricky thing.
That comment..., very bad start. I respect your point of view, but I would like yto respectfuly disagree with this.

You might start building a nice penalty system by following such a simple and exact rule like this one. Look, the Holy Grail is something like:

It is always the responsibility of the chasing driver to be careful and avoid contact with the car in front of him

Couple of examples:

a) Did the car in front of me brake too soon and I inevitably rammed him?, It is my fault. Why?, because I have to be careful.

b) Damn this novice racer is slowing me down for 1 lap already and I will not be able to pick up the pace of the leading cars If I don't overtake this dude soon. Ok, but you better be careful when overtaking. Prove that you are skilled enough to overtake without contact here. If you couldn't overtake eventually, then that's part of the race.

So..., where do you see the tricky thing to a fair penalty system?, all you have to do is to start by blaming the chasing car that caused the "contact", never the chased. Is It really that tricky to implement?

I might agree to an extent about lateral/side collisions been the tricky thing here, but no way I can agree with the other case (the one that happens 90% of the times). The car behind has to be careful. Period. 

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So I caught up with our design team and they’ve given us a quick breakdown in what we’ve done and what we believe will help in regards to your concerns.

Impact Ratings

These are still in GRID Autosport but we’ve made a few changes. In particular they now change over a larger number of races. As a result you won’t see the less rapid fluctuation in the rating that you did in GRID 2.

Drive Clean Award

There is a much better incentive for clean racing in GRID Autosport than it was in GRID 2. With buying and selling cars occurring with greater frequency in Autosport you’ll certainly want that money.

Impact Collisions

A collision between a player with a bad rating and a player with a good rating will affect the player with the bad rating more.

Penalty Ghosting

While under a penalty a player will find themselves ghosted. This should stop anyone from getting a penalty in order to hold up the traffic behind them. In short it stops them using their car as a blockade.

Collision Weightings

These have been fine tuned to make it much harder to take someone out, we’ll go on record to say it’s the most well refined it’s ever been.

Stationary on-track

Parking yourself on the track without moving will get you disqualified, do it repeatedly and you’ll be automatically removed from the session.

Kick-Rejoin

If you kick a troublemaker from a lobby they will not be able to rejoin.

Custom Cup (Custom playlists) Search

We’ve vastly improved the Custom Cup search functionality, to allow players to find sessions that suit their tastes better. If you want to race without collisions or damage, this will be much easier to find compared to GRID 2.

Full Damage

This is set to on as default in GRID Autosport, including official playlists. If you ram someone, chances are you’ll take yourself out of the race. With the mechanical damage system in play you won’t be able to abuse your car continuously.

Damage Done Costs $$$

You have to pay for damage done to cars, players that don’t race cleanly will find their progress hampered because they are always having to pay for repairs. More on this in the coming weeks.

Damage Model

The new damage model definitely helps, cars are stable and planted on the tarmac, it’s not like GRID 2 where cars drifted at incredible speeds all the time, and the slightest knock would send them out of control.

The Tracks

The focus on circuits means that there are proper run-offs, instead of road-side cliffs and trees that would send the cars rolling across the track like in GRID 2.

We'll be talking multiplayer in May, we'll of course go into much more detail then :)

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Again @Loore goes that extra mile to keep us informed ^:)^
It sound impressive I must say.. so impressive that I suggest you would do most of this in F1 as well!
Implement one more rule - if a car in front (at straight) brake far away from a turn, make him getting the damage please ;)

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ChokDK said:
Again @Loore goes that extra mile to keep us informed ^:)^
It sound impressive I must say.. so impressive that I suggest you would do most of this in F1 as well!
Implement one more rule - if a car in front (at straight) brake far away from a turn, make him getting the damage please ;)
Props to our design team on this one, they sent me the email before I even had a chance to pick up the phone :)

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