@Loore & Codemasters: What has been done to address Grid 2's online ramfest & dirty players?

[hola 1]

Loore said:

So I caught up with our design team and they’ve given us a quick breakdown in what we’ve done and what we believe will help in regards to your concerns.

Impact Ratings

These are still in GRID Autosport but we’ve made a few changes. In particular they now change over a larger number of races. As a result you won’t see the less rapid fluctuation in the rating that you did in GRID 2.

Drive Clean ...

etc etc etc

Hell now that looks promising. Some of them sound even original If they end up working as expected.

Now that's a good start. Could you huge the dudes at the team that came up with all that stuff for me?
^:)^ ^:)^

[ewaawoowaa 0]

As well as the actual penalties, have the collisions been sorted out so that they are actually more realistic?

In Grid 2, two cars travelling 30mph would crash and both cars would fly off at 100mph. It was ridiculous.

[DarkRedslayer 43]

This is why I don't race online. I can't stand being wrecked intentionally.

If I'm wrecked because someone got a little over aggressive and we both spin, then it's whatever. "Rubbings racing" as they say in NASCAR. But these people who don't even brake coming into a corner... I refuse to race with them.

[DarkRedslayer 43]

Britpoint said:

Yeah, the thing with "a penalty system that doesn't miss a trick" is that it's pretty much the Holy Grail of racing games - and just as elusive.

It's the nature of the beast I'm afraid, in that any penalty system essentially amounts to detecting contact between two players and then asking the computer to decide who was at fault, or even if it was just a 'racing incident'. There's nothing wrong with a bit of contact here and there - rubbing is racing, after all - but trying to create a system that can differentiate between fair contact and unfair contact and then assign blame accordingly? That is a very tricky thing.

So with these things in mind, encouraging clean racing and making it less difficult for drivers of any skill level to race cleanly is the most important step, I think. Prevention is preferable to punishment, at least in my own view.

Loore speaks of changes to the handling model that help, so from a handling perspective the cars tend not to snap out of control so suddenly and also the way the collision physics works has been adjusted so it's harder to just get punted clean off the road. Then beyond the physics there are a few additional mechanics to encourage clean racing and we've tried to give players a bit more spatial awareness with more useful cameras this time around. 

I'd be happy with a system that detects speed in corners, and if someone is say, more than 10 miles an hour over race pace when they hit someone, they get penalized. Since that is where the majority of wreckers do their worst damage. That 10 MPH buffer would allow for people who just misjudge and don't do it intentionally. Sure, wreckers could still take advantage of that, but it would at least make it so they had to get close in the first place.

[sjsharp2010 227]

DarkRedslayer said:

This is why I don't race online. I can't stand being wrecked intentionally.

If I'm wrecked because someone got a little over aggressive and we both spin, then it's whatever. "Rubbings racing" as they say in NASCAR. But these people who don't even brake coming into a corner... I refuse to race with them.

that's kind of why I don't play any games online there are some idiots on all games

[DarkRedslayer 43]

sjsharp2010 said:

DarkRedslayer said:

This is why I don't race online. I can't stand being wrecked intentionally.

If I'm wrecked because someone got a little over aggressive and we both spin, then it's whatever. "Rubbings racing" as they say in NASCAR. But these people who don't even brake coming into a corner... I refuse to race with them.

that's kind of why I don't play any games online there are some idiots on all games

Well, on FPS, I get to legally kill them :P lol But aside from FPS, I really don't play anything online, now that I really think about it. Few exceptions here and there.

[Loore 0]

ewaawoowaa said:

As well as the actual penalties, have the collisions been sorted out so that they are actually more realistic?

In Grid 2, two cars travelling 30mph would crash and both cars would fly off at 100mph. It was ridiculous.

Improved collision weighting should help reduce this :)

[sjsharp2010 227]

DarkRedslayer said:

sjsharp2010 said:

DarkRedslayer said:

This is why I don't race online. I can't stand being wrecked intentionally.

If I'm wrecked because someone got a little over aggressive and we both spin, then it's whatever. "Rubbings racing" as they say in NASCAR. But these people who don't even brake coming into a corner... I refuse to race with them.

that's kind of why I don't play any games online there are some idiots on all games

Well, on FPS, I get to legally kill them :P lol But aside from FPS, I really don't play anything online, now that I really think about it. Few exceptions here and there.

tbh with my disability it's hard to get them on that either I suppose I might be a challenge when it comes to something like a snooker or golf game if I chose to play them but generally I play alone or with family so Sp moeds see a lot of action on my games especially career modes

[ChokDK 0]

@sjsharp2010 @darkRedslayer and more - there's always some good leagues to join.
Yes, I know it can take a few runs to find the guys you really like to race against, but it's such a fun and exiting thing, compared to offline racing.
You should really try it out!

I could suggest a pretty "gentle" league (couff couff) \:D/  ;;)

[RallyDriven 398]

I can see that you've really taken time to address the issues with G2, and it shows how much you care about it. Hopefully this will help improve the online play. How will the damage payments work? is it automatically taken off your winning at the end of a race, or is there an option not to pay and race a damaged car again?

[Loore 0]

RallyDriven said:

I can see that you've really taken time to address the issues with G2, and it shows how much you care about it. Hopefully this will help improve the online play. How will the damage payments work? is it automatically taken off your winning at the end of a race, or is there an option not to pay and race a damaged car again?

Damage stays until you pay.

[RallyDriven 398]

Ok thank you, just one more question, will this system be used in demolition derby, or like impact ratings in G2 will it be disabled?

[DarkRedslayer 43]

I am not against leagues, my main problem is, I have a very "wild" schedule. Sometimes I home for weeks, even months. And other times I'm home a couple days out of a month at most (I spent 29 days away from home in March/April, over half of that time in California, which is the other side of the country for me). Makes league racing really impossible for me.

I also am not a fan of being unable to win lol, which makes playing with people who play way more regularly than me, not enjoyable in most cases. If I'm not competitive, I'm not interested. I'd rather play offline and compete for top 5's than be online competing for 15th lol.

Last league I ran in was in a NASCAR league on NTG 11, and I won 6 of the 9 races I ran before trading the game off due to bugs, and I did have a lot of fun, even when I didn't win. But that was back when I wasn't traveling, and I had plenty of time to play, and we ran locked set ups.

Now I'm back to a career mode only, or random online races with just my friends playstyle. Although I am not apposed to finding new racers to play with. We just race a very specific way. - As in, if someone crashes, we slow down, let them catch back up, and go at it again - to maximize our close races, and we aren't afraid of racing hard because of this rule lol.

[Workhorse9696 0]

Loore said:

So I caught up with our design team and they’ve given us a quick breakdown in what we’ve done and what we believe will help in regards to your concerns.

Impact Collisions

A collision between a player with a bad rating and a player with a good rating will affect the player with the bad rating more.

Collision Weightings

These have been fine tuned to make it much harder to take someone out, we’ll go on record to say it’s the most well refined it’s ever been.

Full Damage

This is set to on as default in GRID Autosport, including official playlists. If you ram someone, chances are you’ll take yourself out of the race. With the mechanical damage system in play you won’t be able to abuse your car continuously.

Damage Done Costs $$$

You have to pay for damage done to cars, players that don’t race cleanly will find their progress hampered because they are always having to pay for repairs. More on this in the coming weeks.

Damage Model

The new damage model definitely helps, cars are stable and planted on the tarmac, it’s not like GRID 2 where cars drifted at incredible speeds all the time, and the slightest knock would send them out of control.

Sounds like a big step forward and I'm really encouraged that you guys have obviously listened to the feedback from the old Grid 2 forums on how to improve the online racing experience (including my own amazing feedback :D )

Full Damage

This is set to on as default in GRID Autosport, including official playlists. If you ram someone, chances are you’ll take yourself out of the race. With the mechanical damage system in play you won’t be able to abuse your car continuously.

Hopefully the player who is rammed will not suffer the same amount of proportional damage as the rammer otherwise you will have a lot of angry players who are trying to race clean having their race ruined by the rammers and big repair bills to pay. 

I'm still a little concerned about online flashbacks being set to On as default in Public Playlists but with the other changes hopefully it wont be abused by the players who want to ruin it for everyone else.

All in all a big thumbs up to you guys :-bd

[ChokDK 0]

@DarkRedslayer - yeah, I see what you mean now.
The way you race against your freinds sound a lot like when I race with some of "the ol' boys" from old times.
And I definately also hate to be last as well amonst those I consider to be "about as fast as I" in last version (= F1 2012 but any game).

However, I was lucky to find Slipstreamers - the owner is coding a lot of stuff himself, and a big lot of the guys in there are really great to race and have fun with at Teamspeak.
Only few times I go online racing exept that - league and friends - but you CAN get some great surprises doing so anyway.
From time to time there's still a bunch of people with "sportsmanship" out there  :)>-
Happy to hear CM are trying to make it more boring for those who use it for a shooter game :D

[ChokDK 0]

Workhorse9696 said:

I'm still a little concerned about online flashbacks being set to On as default in Public Playlists but with the other changes hopefully it wont be abused by the players who want to ruin it for everyone else.

All in all a big thumbs up to you guys :-bd

I can't imagine how Online Flashback should work tbh?
I guess/hope it's not possible to use online...

[sjsharp2010 227]

DarkRedslayer said:

I am not against leagues, my main problem is, I have a very "wild" schedule. Sometimes I home for weeks, even months. And other times I'm home a couple days out of a month at most (I spent 29 days away from home in March/April, over half of that time in California, which is the other side of the country for me). Makes league racing really impossible for me.

I also am not a fan of being unable to win lol, which makes playing with people who play way more regularly than me, not enjoyable in most cases. If I'm not competitive, I'm not interested. I'd rather play offline and compete for top 5's than be online competing for 15th lol.

Last league I ran in was in a NASCAR league on NTG 11, and I won 6 of the 9 races I ran before trading the game off due to bugs, and I did have a lot of fun, even when I didn't win. But that was back when I wasn't traveling, and I had plenty of time to play, and we ran locked set ups.

Now I'm back to a career mode only, or random online races with just my friends playstyle. Although I am not apposed to finding new racers to play with. We just race a very specific way. - As in, if someone crashes, we slow down, let them catch back up, and go at it again - to maximize our close races, and we aren't afraid of racing hard because of this rule lol.

This is also true for me as well my disability makes it hard for me to react to fast changing circumstances as I only have full use of 1 hand. I've learnt to manage my condition when playing against AI on easy difficulty settings with driving aids on and be competitive most of the time as I've won championships on the F1 games 2010-12. I do find 13 tough going I'm hopeful I may eventually crack it as I think on a couple of occasions I could have made better decisions in my career when choosing what rival to challenge and what team to join.

When it comes to thinking games like a snooker or golf where speed isn't key then I can be quite a challenge as I used to quite often beat my granddad on Snooker games and he's the one who got me into it my brother as well and he's no slouch when it comes to thinking games either as he won a couple of chess tournaments when he was at school. When it comes to action games like Fifa though he gives me a pounding although I'm not too bad against the Amateur and Semi Pro AI I'd be hopeless against online opponents

I don't necessarily have to win I just want when I play feel like I have a chance to which on the Amateur difficulty settings on CM's games (F1 2013 aside) although I don't win every race I do feel I can go fast enough that I can challenge for it and that's what I want with my games a challenge but a challenge I can live with and have the possibility of beating it.

[RTAnoskills 0]

OnLiveTig said:

Goonertez, this is a professional game developer we're talking about.  The success of the game can't revolve around some "treehouse" mentality of everyone knowing everyone.  

They simply need to include a collisions off OFFICIAL playlist.  Simple enough solution.

I think with full damage, people will want to race clean.  The problem with grid 2 was partly the bad design of the tracks, too narrow, too many things to cause a crash, and partly the complete lack of knowledge on how to actually race clean displayed by many many so called clean racers.  

The people you hear constantly saying "sorry man" "my bad" . if they only knew that they cant take a left turn from the left side of the track, and that the car on the right of them is on the racing line, and its up to them to back off, and slip back in behind the car thats just overtaken them......not just go for the turn flat out, then blame the car on the right for taking them out. 

Collisions off is perfect for time attacks, and checkpoints and drifts.  But collisions off race lobby isnt racing.  You never overtake anyone, you simply drive through them.  Thats possibly a reason why some people cant race with collisions on, as they are too used to being able to just drive through slower cars instead of waiting and passing them when they make a mistake.  

[Loggy 13]

One more thing, if a rammer slams you and you and he both take damage, will his damage remain with him after he flashbacks? , ie. Will flashback undo damage ?.

It must not undo damage because he will then chase you down again with his undamaged faster car.

[hola 1]

Loore said:

Damage stays until you pay

Will we earn credits like crazy in this game?, or will It cost time and many races to have lots of credits to spend on things?, this is important regarding car repairs too, becaise if it is too easy, or you earn lots of credits after a couple of races then...

[Purple44 0]

If flashbacks can be use online, then Codemasters did not learn from GRID 2 where griefers use flashback to their advantage. There is no need for flashbacks online.

Text chat a must have for me and a must have for online to have longevity. Both Flatout 2 ( 6 yrs ) and GRID 1 ( 3 yrs ) had text chat and online was going strong until the PC online servers were turn off.

Just look at GRID 2. Codemasters drop text chat from GRID 2 ( we had it for GRID 1 ), so online on average you would see about 3 players using VOIP and the other 9 players were silent. No gr ( good race ) or sry ( sorry ) if you screwed up and took someone out. And no "hi Gooner". Little things like this help online community get to know each other and grow.

Spectate mode need to return also. It was great to join a GRID lobby and while waiting, you could spectate the current races. See who racing cleanly and who not. Spectate mode in a race is useful too, a host could retire and check players causing trouble to see if player need to be kicked, or least be given a warning in the chat box to drive better or leave.

Will slipstream\ drafting from GRID 1 return to GRID Autosport? This feature was miss in GRID 2 online on the circuit tracks. :(

Second that we need the Collision Forward option that work well in GRID 1. No Collision OFF racing for me. That not racing in my book. Rubbing is part of racing, I hope this damage penalty is not to touchy.

Loore the big question for me is, will we be able to do bumper to bumper racing online like we use to do in GRID 1? The #1 tournament online with GRID 1 was touring car because of the close racing we had online like this ( was not there at all in GRID 2 :( ):

GRID: 5 lap touring car racing online, trying to race clean & fair.   - video of some the best PC touring car players online with GRID 1 and me trying to keep up with them.

I believe I read somewhere there is some upgrading\tuning of the cars, will this effect online? Most players online want a fair race, did player win race because of skill or because he had a better tweaked car ( faster, better grip ) than you? Online, the cars need to have the same setup. Upgrades and forcing players to race with wimpy loaner car against players with level 28 fast cars, help kill the online in GRID 2!!

I will wait until GRID Autosport get release and if I find Autosport delivers on bumper to bumper racing and we get text chat so I can make some new online racing friends, then there a good chance I will buy GRID Autosport.

If Autosport falls short, then I guess I will have to see what new sim the old GRID 1 touring car gang decide to go with for some bumper to bumper touring car racing.

[mcnab 0]

Purple44 said:

Will slipstream\ drafting from GRID 1 return to GRID Autosport? This feature was miss in GRID 2 online on the circuit tracks. :(

Loore Codemasters Community Manager

April 24 edited April 24

@mcnab

Drafting / slipstreaing is in, a lot more prominent than in GRID 2. Open Wheel category you'll be using this a lot I imagine

[FlashStealth 237]

Purple44 said:

If flashbacks can be use online, then Codemasters did not learn from GRID 2 where griefers use flashback to their advantage. There is no need for flashbacks online.

Text chat a must have for me and a must have for online to have longevity. Both Flatout 2 ( 6 yrs ) and GRID 1 ( 3 yrs ) had text chat and online was going strong until the PC online servers were turn off.

Just look at GRID 2. Codemasters drop text chat from GRID 2 ( we had it for GRID 1 ), so online on average you would see about 3 players using VOIP and the other 9 players were silent. No gr ( good race ) or sry ( sorry ) if you screwed up and took someone out. And no "hi Gooner". Little things like this help online community get to know each other and grow.

Spectate mode need to return also. It was great to join a GRID lobby and while waiting, you could spectate the current races. See who racing cleanly and who not. Spectate mode in a race is useful too, a host could retire and check players causing trouble to see if player need to be kicked, or least be given a warning in the chat box to drive better or leave.

Will slipstream\ drafting from GRID 1 return to GRID Autosport? This feature was miss in GRID 2 online on the circuit tracks. :(

Second that we need the Collision Forward option that work well in GRID 1. No Collision OFF racing for me. That not racing in my book. Rubbing is part of racing, I hope this damage penalty is not to touchy.

Loore the big question for me is, will we be able to do bumper to bumper racing online like we use to do in GRID 1? The #1 tournament online with GRID 1 was touring car because of the close racing we had online like this ( was not there at all in GRID 2 :( ):

GRID: 5 lap touring car racing online, trying to race clean & fair.   - video of some the best PC touring car players online with GRID 1 and me trying to keep up with them.

I believe I read somewhere there is some upgrading\tuning of the cars, will this effect online? Most players online want a fair race, did player win race because of skill or because he had a better tweaked car ( faster, better grip ) than you? Online, the cars need to have the same setup. Upgrades and forcing players to race with wimpy loaner car against players with level 28 fast cars, help kill the online in GRID 2!!

I will wait until GRID Autosport get release and if I find Autosport delivers on bumper to bumper racing and we get text chat so I can make some new online racing friends, then there a good chance I will buy GRID Autosport.

If Autosport falls short, then I guess I will have to see what new sim the old GRID 1 touring car gang decide to go with for some bumper to bumper touring car racing.

agree and subscribe.

Slipstream are back into autosport (i read somewhere if remember good).

For the other thins you listed, i think we need to scream louder, because are still missing...

And worse, developers after 6years since grid1 understand that handling, cockpit cam, slipstream are part of the game, like

1st person view is part of an fps.

Online is far to be good as we know. Too much fun breaks and walls.

- tuning is a fun break (make a challenge confusion)

-flashbacks online is just stuff for kids, semi-sim don't need that shit (and nobody want, see the poll)

- no text chat

-no spectate

- voice=mute all 

-custom lobby host kick (this help to left custom lobby empty, who want to race againt the commander host ? overtake him and he kick u).

online will be fun, if the game will be well balanced.

I doubt about longevity, you cannot play for years or create sense of community if the game is basically muted.