Med TC nerf affected PAD ability to compete in time trials

[speeddemon8021 0]

GavGav983526 said:

Finn said:

GavGav983526 said:

Btw, the cringey millennial educational bullsh1t. Drop it, you don't sound smart, and it's a game ffs. Get a life.

And stop tagging all my factual posts "Disagree", it's pathetic.

I think everyone including yourself could take your advice on it being a game with respect to this argument over the definition of video game traction control. 

A game replicating particular vehicles. I just want it to replicate accurately.

Well poppet real life F1 has no traction control so don't you think your precious TC users should feel lucky they have been given that particular assist at all even tho it doesn't "replicate accurately" real life F1

[DauntingConch 0]

GavGav983526 said:

pijin said:

By freak out I mean you insulting every single person here who has an opposing opinion. Not just me, but pretty much everyone else on this forum who disagreed with you. Being rude and belittling is not the way to deal with opposing opinions. Having a respectful discussion is, which you have already proven to be incapable of, and instead take simple things like the disagree button personally. I disagree, so I click the button end of. I don't give a hoot who you are, but I disagree. Whether or not you think its a fact is irrelevant because its would a fact based on your incorrect preconceived notions.

As for clicking the disagree, you're assertion that TC would make an F1 car faster is on the assumption that the TC implemented was designed with the intent of performance. Like I've said, if you put a saloon car TC in it, it would slow it down (don't think of a reply yet, finish reading the post). So it is not strictly a fact, but rather a result of your assumption. 

As for my supposed naiveté, I mean there is no reference for what a 2017 F1 car can do with traction control, so you really can't argue it should be 0.X seconds faster, because its never been done. 

Back to the meat of the issue, you are making assumptions. Yes, we are driving F1 cars, but the intent of the TC isn't to make it faster.  Traction Control exists on a scale between max performance and max control. Just because F1 is about performance doesn't mean this should be for max performance simply because real F1 cars of today don't have TC. I know F1 cars had TC before 08, but they were designed to make the cars faster. This TC is designed to prevent loss of control. Those two are not mutually exclusive, I concede, but you can't have max of both and call it realistic. (The pre 08 cars were not impossible to spin, even in the dry. I just searched 04 F1 spin, and got a clip of Schumi spinning in the dry.) All they did is move it further towards "more control" which slows it down incidentally.

You have to take a high level view (and think) of why the assist is being put in the game, or what problem existed, that they added TC to solve? The answer to that is simple: to help people who are not capable or don't have the time to learn no-TC. And guess what people who need TC do without TC? They lose control of their cars because they can't drive without it. Now which form of TC would best fix that? Performance or control? With this rationale, reason would say control, but if you still can't understand what I'm saying (not even agree, just understand it), then I can't do much.

You are reading but not taking it in. We arent driving saloon cars, we're driving F1 cars. Its pretty simple, thats not belitting. Your assumpion that TC would not make an F1 car faster, or that it has to be a type that suits your agenda, is baffling, and for someone writing big posts with long words and political bulls hit trying to look smart, such an admission would make you look a lot smarter.

The rest of your post is just boring fluff. Do you find yourself isolated at parties?

I think you keep ignoring the point people are making too Gav, regardless of whether traction control is faster in real life, that is not the intetion of the assists within the game.  They are not meant to replicate real life, they are there to assist users who may be struggling or dont have the time or inclination to turn them all off. 

I understand your argument but it is not relevant thatTC is faster in real life, I think we even had this debate a year ago with the last game!  The point is that the TC in this game is an assist with a different purpose to real life.  I know you want realism but your argument is not relevant to this game and if thats what you truly want you should logging on to the sim game forums.  Codies should rename it to traction assist 1 and 2, that would stop any literal interpretations and arguments!

[dirt3joe 0]

Half of the problem here is actually that it shouldn't be called traction control.

Everyone knows what it is implemented for. In the real world traction control is implemented to make race cars go faster or to make road cars safer.

To me it's pretty clear that Codies intentions here are neither of these (but maybe a statement from them would clarify).

The game is so complex though its not surprising that people find a way to exploit "traction control" to get faster times, either through setup alteration or standard setup driving. It's OK to say test for this, but it would be hugely difficult to establish and get right because the number of combinations are huge.

I think they should get rid of the name traction control and call it no assists, medium assists and high assists or something like pro, amateur and beginner. And irrespective of what times are possible under the different assists they should make it clear which of these is the top leaderboard and allow users to be well separated by the assists they use. Maybe even have a separate elite leaderboard that has no filters and just displays the no assists times.

[DauntingConch 0]

GavGav983526 said:

DauntingConch said:

GavGav983526 said:

pijin said:

By freak out I mean you insulting every single person here who has an opposing opinion. Not just me, but pretty much everyone else on this forum who disagreed with you. Being rude and belittling is not the way to deal with opposing opinions. Having a respectful discussion is, which you have already proven to be incapable of, and instead take simple things like the disagree button personally. I disagree, so I click the button end of. I don't give a hoot who you are, but I disagree. Whether or not you think its a fact is irrelevant because its would a fact based on your incorrect preconceived notions.

As for clicking the disagree, you're assertion that TC would make an F1 car faster is on the assumption that the TC implemented was designed with the intent of performance. Like I've said, if you put a saloon car TC in it, it would slow it down (don't think of a reply yet, finish reading the post). So it is not strictly a fact, but rather a result of your assumption. 

As for my supposed naiveté, I mean there is no reference for what a 2017 F1 car can do with traction control, so you really can't argue it should be 0.X seconds faster, because its never been done. 

Back to the meat of the issue, you are making assumptions. Yes, we are driving F1 cars, but the intent of the TC isn't to make it faster.  Traction Control exists on a scale between max performance and max control. Just because F1 is about performance doesn't mean this should be for max performance simply because real F1 cars of today don't have TC. I know F1 cars had TC before 08, but they were designed to make the cars faster. This TC is designed to prevent loss of control. Those two are not mutually exclusive, I concede, but you can't have max of both and call it realistic. (The pre 08 cars were not impossible to spin, even in the dry. I just searched 04 F1 spin, and got a clip of Schumi spinning in the dry.) All they did is move it further towards "more control" which slows it down incidentally.

You have to take a high level view (and think) of why the assist is being put in the game, or what problem existed, that they added TC to solve? The answer to that is simple: to help people who are not capable or don't have the time to learn no-TC. And guess what people who need TC do without TC? They lose control of their cars because they can't drive without it. Now which form of TC would best fix that? Performance or control? With this rationale, reason would say control, but if you still can't understand what I'm saying (not even agree, just understand it), then I can't do much.

You are reading but not taking it in. We arent driving saloon cars, we're driving F1 cars. Its pretty simple, thats not belitting. Your assumpion that TC would not make an F1 car faster, or that it has to be a type that suits your agenda, is baffling, and for someone writing big posts with long words and political bulls hit trying to look smart, such an admission would make you look a lot smarter.

The rest of your post is just boring fluff. Do you find yourself isolated at parties?

I think you keep ignoring the point people are making too Gav, regardless of whether traction control is faster in real life, that is not the intetion of the assists within the game.  They are not meant to replicate real life, they are there to assist users who may be struggling or dont have the time or inclination to turn them all off. 

I understand your argument but it is not relevant thatTC is faster in real life, I think we even had this debate a year ago with the last game!  The point is that the TC in this game is an assist with a different purpose to real life.  I know you want realism but your argument is not relevant to this game and if thats what you truly want you should logging on to the sim game forums.  Codies should rename it to traction assist 1 and 2, that would stop any literal interpretations and arguments!

DC,

Thank you for acknowledging and understanding my argument. Just that alone makes it possible for us to have that discussion. You're probably right that we did have that argument before. Your last line I agree that would clear up a lot of interpretation issues.

I have never heard CM say that TC is in the game 'as an assist' rather than putting the entity of TC in to the game as something you can utilise at will. If it's TC as F1 knows TC, it should be quicker, as most of us know. However as I said, your idea would clear up the issue.

Or alternatively the two groups could just have different leaderboards etc.

Yeah I think the leaderboards need to be segregated in some way, perhaps a filter you can apply, I know Codemasters have said before they can only have some many leaderboards, not sure of the reason but thats why all the classic cars are lumped together.  A filter would allow us to compare like for like without having to create several more leaderboards.

I think because Codemasters have taken the decision to reduce the impact of TC it does suggest they are just assists and not real life interpretations of the technology.  I beleive they are there to allow drivers with a wide range of ability to race together on a relatively level playing field, but I guess it is difficuly to balance and hard to stop people using the assists to gain advantage, hence the recent  rebalancing.  It's an impossible task if you think about it, similar to balancing the pad and wheel pace.

With recent changes to traction control they probably should reset the current leaderboard times but that would just create another round of complaints...

[Coffer 122]

The lack of common sense here is more disturbing than even some of the other nonsense I've seen on here.

@GavGav983526
It's a game. Games are supposed to reward skill. Assists go against that and exist to give a helping hand to those who really can't handle the challenge of driving without it, so they're naturally balanced in order to give players who take the harder route an advantage and those who don't an incentive to try and improve to such an extent that they can eventually perform well without it. You can even see this with the MP4/6 as the way the car shifts when you change gears with the paddles instead of the shifter is massively exaggerated to make up for the big time gain you otherwise get.

That's literally all there is to it. Everything else is just pedantry and the thread really shouldn't have gone on for as long as it did.

And no, drive the GT3s in AC with different levels of the traction control and then come back and tell me that it's always faster. You don't even have that going for you.

Now stop shitposting.

[FRACTURED 30]

GavGav983526 said:

dirt3joe said:

Half of the problem here is actually that it shouldn't be called traction control.

Everyone knows what it is implemented for. In the real world traction control is implemented to make race cars go faster or to make road cars safer.

To me it's pretty clear that Codies intentions here are neither of these (but maybe a statement from them would clarify).

The game is so complex though its not surprising that people find a way to exploit "traction control" to get faster times, either through setup alteration or standard setup driving. It's OK to say test for this, but it would be hugely difficult to establish and get right because the number of combinations are huge.

I think they should get rid of the name traction control and call it no assists, medium assists and high assists or something like pro, amateur and beginner. And irrespective of what times are possible under the different assists they should make it clear which of these is the top leaderboard and allow users to be well separated by the assists they use. Maybe even have a separate elite leaderboard that has no filters and just displays the no assists times.

DauntingConch said:

GavGav983526 said:

DauntingConch said:

GavGav983526 said:

pijin said:

By freak out I mean you insulting every single person here who has an opposing opinion. Not just me, but pretty much everyone else on this forum who disagreed with you. Being rude and belittling is not the way to deal with opposing opinions. Having a respectful discussion is, which you have already proven to be incapable of, and instead take simple things like the disagree button personally. I disagree, so I click the button end of. I don't give a hoot who you are, but I disagree. Whether or not you think its a fact is irrelevant because its would a fact based on your incorrect preconceived notions.

As for clicking the disagree, you're assertion that TC would make an F1 car faster is on the assumption that the TC implemented was designed with the intent of performance. Like I've said, if you put a saloon car TC in it, it would slow it down (don't think of a reply yet, finish reading the post). So it is not strictly a fact, but rather a result of your assumption. 

As for my supposed naiveté, I mean there is no reference for what a 2017 F1 car can do with traction control, so you really can't argue it should be 0.X seconds faster, because its never been done. 

Back to the meat of the issue, you are making assumptions. Yes, we are driving F1 cars, but the intent of the TC isn't to make it faster.  Traction Control exists on a scale between max performance and max control. Just because F1 is about performance doesn't mean this should be for max performance simply because real F1 cars of today don't have TC. I know F1 cars had TC before 08, but they were designed to make the cars faster. This TC is designed to prevent loss of control. Those two are not mutually exclusive, I concede, but you can't have max of both and call it realistic. (The pre 08 cars were not impossible to spin, even in the dry. I just searched 04 F1 spin, and got a clip of Schumi spinning in the dry.) All they did is move it further towards "more control" which slows it down incidentally.

You have to take a high level view (and think) of why the assist is being put in the game, or what problem existed, that they added TC to solve? The answer to that is simple: to help people who are not capable or don't have the time to learn no-TC. And guess what people who need TC do without TC? They lose control of their cars because they can't drive without it. Now which form of TC would best fix that? Performance or control? With this rationale, reason would say control, but if you still can't understand what I'm saying (not even agree, just understand it), then I can't do much.

You are reading but not taking it in. We arent driving saloon cars, we're driving F1 cars. Its pretty simple, thats not belitting. Your assumpion that TC would not make an F1 car faster, or that it has to be a type that suits your agenda, is baffling, and for someone writing big posts with long words and political bulls hit trying to look smart, such an admission would make you look a lot smarter.

The rest of your post is just boring fluff. Do you find yourself isolated at parties?

I think you keep ignoring the point people are making too Gav, regardless of whether traction control is faster in real life, that is not the intetion of the assists within the game.  They are not meant to replicate real life, they are there to assist users who may be struggling or dont have the time or inclination to turn them all off. 

I understand your argument but it is not relevant thatTC is faster in real life, I think we even had this debate a year ago with the last game!  The point is that the TC in this game is an assist with a different purpose to real life.  I know you want realism but your argument is not relevant to this game and if thats what you truly want you should logging on to the sim game forums.  Codies should rename it to traction assist 1 and 2, that would stop any literal interpretations and arguments!

DC,

Thank you for acknowledging and understanding my argument. Just that alone makes it possible for us to have that discussion. You're probably right that we did have that argument before. Your last line I agree that would clear up a lot of interpretation issues.

I have never heard CM say that TC is in the game 'as an assist' rather than putting the entity of TC in to the game as something you can utilise at will. If it's TC as F1 knows TC, it should be quicker, as most of us know. However as I said, your idea would clear up the issue.

Or alternatively the two groups could just have different leaderboards etc.

Yeah I think the leaderboards need to be segregated in some way, perhaps a filter you can apply, I know Codemasters have said before they can only have some many leaderboards, not sure of the reason but thats why all the classic cars are lumped together.  A filter would allow us to compare like for like without having to create several more leaderboards.

I think because Codemasters have taken the decision to reduce the impact of TC it does suggest they are just assists and not real life interpretations of the technology.  I beleive they are there to allow drivers with a wide range of ability to race together on a relatively level playing field, but I guess it is difficuly to balance and hard to stop people using the assists to gain advantage, hence the recent  rebalancing.  It's an impossible task if you think about it, similar to balancing the pad and wheel pace.

With recent changes to traction control they probably should reset the current leaderboard times but that would just create another round of complaints...

Good stuff DC, and @dirt3joe.

Always better when the adults turn up to talk.

Best post in the thread. Laughed so hard at this.

[CaptainAust 1]

Remind me again why we are all arguing? Surely the answer is to have an extra TC option like i said before,, or like an earlier post,, just add a +0.4 second handicap to tc users.. Come on people!!! Why must you all try to have a pissing contest when the answer is simple?? 

[FRACTURED 30]

Oh yeah, for sure a lot of people agree on this. And then many disagree also. As you would expect. Its more about how they put their points across.

GavGav983526 said:

The usual girls whining online moaning about it.

Listen up Cry baby, they aren't gonna get rid of it because you can't beat your little sister on TT. 

CM have a bigger audience than you and your physics-defying childish demands.

Can tell none of you could ever run a business

I stay away from MP, mainly because it's full of these whiny kid types

Back in your box fractured brain.

You're either thick or misread the thread, or more likely both.

Erm, I'm sorry to make you look more stupid than you already have done yourself...

Don't worry about those whining "turn TC off so I can win, waah"

I'm just fighting the corner of realism, and laughing at the cry babies. So err, no melodrama in sight. So much density.

...for someone writing big posts with long words and political bullshit trying to look smart, such an admission would make you look a lot smarter. The rest of your post is just boring fluff. Do you find yourself isolated at parties?

You're thinking about it too deeply, which tbh, given your obvious lack of intelligence, is actually quite impressive. Have a fruit pastille.

So pretty comprehensively reinforced your well deserved reputation of being a gobshite with little up top in one post

You didn't actually though did you? Be honest. Or is it like when old or special people rock in their chair giggling (and more often than not dribbling) but for no obvious reason? (I meant no offense if you were dribbling)

I really did laugh Gav, honest. You can choose not to believe me, that's absolutely fine. Now where's me Werthers.

[CaptainAust 1]

"oh look, i can piss further than you"        

[FRACTURED 30]

GavGav983526 said:

Fractured came in but ducked out when he realised he had nothing worthy to add. 

Nah I went to play Gears 4. I don't even have this years F1 game.

I'm inclined to agree about Coffer.

Most of the argument relates to whether TCS in game is implemented as "an assist" or a pure performance addition. Its to assist those who (unlike yourself) can't run no TCS.

[CaptainAust 1]

@GavGav983526 just make sure it's not into the wind

[emiack76 0]

Wow some real funny debates, guys getting heated on a topic of a game option. 

Bottom line for me, I play a practice session then a race in career mode of any evening using medium TC it was fun until the patch 1.9. I joined the forum to try and get an answer from codies as to are they going to change back because the game has now become dull. If I had the time to get a wheel and play the game like a sim then I would. 

I paid my hard earned cash for a product that was great fun at the start then changed by the codies for reasons that have nothing to do with the way I play. 

I don’t want argue with other users over how the game should be played in there opinion, I just want the product they released to be the same today as when it first hit the shelves. 

If codies would respond with something that would help all. 

[lolschrauber 2]

emiack76 said:

Wow some real funny debates, guys getting heated on a topic of a game option. 

Bottom line for me, I play a practice session then a race in career mode of any evening using medium TC it was fun until the patch 1.9. I joined the forum to try and get an answer from codies as to are they going to change back because the game has now become dull. If I had the time to get a wheel and play the game like a sim then I would. 

I paid my hard earned cash for a product that was great fun at the start then changed by the codies for reasons that have nothing to do with the way I play. 

I don’t want argue with other users over how the game should be played in there opinion, I just want the product they released to be the same today as when it first hit the shelves. 

If codies would respond with something that would help all. 

It's THEIR game. They can introduce changes whenever they'd like.

Get it on PC, turn off updates, make backups, test updates, restore if necessary. Not sure if there's a better option.

[oner7 29]

When speaking about F1 2017 which is a GAME, then TC is an assist for those who cannot handle the throttle well. 

So if it's an assist , it should you slow down when you use it.

Isn't it clear enough?

[emiack76 0]

oner7 said:

When speaking about F1 2017 which is a GAME, then TC is an assist for those who cannot handle the throttle well. 

So if it's an assist , it should you slow down when you use it.

Isn't it clear enough?

So if codies took away the ability to use a steering wheel to make it an even playing field where all racers used a Pad because a wheel makes you faster that would be cool?

[DEECO 3]

The worst part of all this in my opinion, is the damage it is going to do to a LOT of leagues.

Non TCers who were completely comfortable racing with TCers to increase participation and league size. That is the largest collateral damage for all of this.

Separate leaderboards will work.

But I still say the best idea (in MY opinion) and easiest fix, would've been just to add +.x seconds for each assist used in the leaderboards.

I have been more than a little blown away by the depth, seriousness and plain ol' pissed-offedness that came out in some of the discussion. 

Ultimately, it's about playability, fairness (which after 46 years of living on this planet I can't find ANYWHERE), and competition. I understand both sides of the argument.

Hopefully they can find a solution that doesn't ruin most league play. Because to be honest, a lot of people just simply won't put the time in to learn NO ASSISTS. And if that chunk of players go away....the lobbies and leagues might just become barren.

Just two cents from a guy who tries NO ASSISTS from time to time....but is too competitive and impatient to stick with it.

Deke

EDIT: And this TC would make you faster, TC would make you slower by CM's intent is nothing more than semantics. It's not the real problem that came out of this patch.

[auroboros 0]

Opinions are flowing like a nile of saliva. Codies can stop the arguing by adding the old setting to offline modes, pretty simple. The only reason anyone should have a stance against assists vs no assists is if it effects them online.

[DEECO 3]

auroboros said:

Opinions are flowing like a nile of saliva. Codies can stop the arguing by adding the old setting to offline modes, pretty simple. The only reason anyone should have a stance against assists vs no assists is if it effects them online.

Agreed.

But just to point out....your's is but another opinion to add to the "Nile of saliva."

[auroboros 0]

DEECO said:

auroboros said:

Opinions are flowing like a nile of saliva. Codies can stop the arguing by adding the old setting to offline modes, pretty simple. The only reason anyone should have a stance against assists vs no assists is if it effects them online.

Agreed.

But just to point out....your's is but another opinion to add to the "Nile of saliva."

I do understand irony, good one. Not really, this time I stated no opinion. I stated a solution without revealing which side of the fence I sit on. You've probably seen which side that is by now elsewhere though lol.

[Adolfus58 1]

It's simple, the FIA banned TC. So when the implememt TC in this game it is to assist you in your wheel spin if you cannot properly feather the Throttle. This is not the TC put in F1 cars to make u faster. As we know that has been banned.

[HOLYPOTATOJD 0]

I'm on a pad with no TC , i don't see the problem ? this game is the easiest yet to play with TC off. Med TC should be slower

[pijin 49]

@GavGav983526 you literally are repeating the same thing over and over without reading what I’m saying. It’s laughable that you suggest I don’t know what I’m saying but honestly, not even gonna bother responding to that at any length. instead, I will try to explain to you one more time why this TC doesn’t work like you want it to. Shut that voice inside your head up and read the whole thing before responding.

There exists different kinds of TC for different goals. To decide which you use, you take a high level view of what problem you have and how to solve it. The problem in this scenario is not that cars aren’t going fast enough, rather, that players who can’t commit the time or have the skill are spinning out and losing control of their cars. Performance TC isn’t a good solution as you can still lose control quite easily. The better solution is a control oriented TC with some built in stability control that cuts the player off at 8 or 9/10ths in terms of driving at the limit. The two kinds are not mutually exclusive but generally control TC is not as fast outright. So no it is not unrealistic for TC to be slower.

And btw, the fact that my simple comment about capitalism and entitlement confused you is pretty laughable.

[Acerees 115]

You are right you can't beat your time trial lap times.  You are not prepared to learn the game without TC.  Your complaint is valid - they should reset the time trials so you can beat your lap times again based on your skill level.  You absolutely hit the nail on the head.  Medium TC was too fast and you ability looked too good compared to people without TC.  I couldn't have put it better in a post but your post just confirmed everything.  The codies team probably read your post and then they congratulated eachother on a great job because they achieved exactly what they wanted to achieve based on feedback from the community and the people who are not casual f1 game players the guys who put hundreds of hours into the game this year and every other year and HAVE invested time in learning how to drive over the years without TC.

[emiack76 0]

Acerees said:

You are right you can't beat your time trial lap times.  You are not prepared to learn the game without TC.  Your complaint is valid - they should reset the time trials so you can beat your lap times again based on your skill level.  You absolutely hit the nail on the head.  Medium TC was too fast and you ability looked too good compared to people without TC.  I couldn't have put it better in a post but your post just confirmed everything.  The codies team probably read your post and then they congratulated eachother on a great job because they achieved exactly what they wanted to achieve based on feedback from the community and the people who are not casual f1 game players the guys who put hundreds of hours into the game this year and every other year and HAVE invested time in learning how to drive over the years without TC.

When the casual gamer stops buying the games because of the changes made to support the online hardcore! and codies don’t make any profits, just think of all that time the hardcore will have on there hands..!

[Acerees 115]

emiack76 said:

Acerees said:

You are right you can't beat your time trial lap times.  You are not prepared to learn the game without TC.  Your complaint is valid - they should reset the time trials so you can beat your lap times again based on your skill level.  You absolutely hit the nail on the head.  Medium TC was too fast and you ability looked too good compared to people without TC.  I couldn't have put it better in a post but your post just confirmed everything.  The codies team probably read your post and then they congratulated eachother on a great job because they achieved exactly what they wanted to achieve based on feedback from the community and the people who are not casual f1 game players the guys who put hundreds of hours into the game this year and every other year and HAVE invested time in learning how to drive over the years without TC.

When the casual gamer stops buying the games because of the changes made to support the online hardcore! and codies don’t make any profits, just think of all that time the hardcore will have on there hands..!

The casual gamers are fickle and do not buy the game every year and that has been the case since f1 was first released on PlayStation.  Also there are several other companies who would take it up and maybe they wouldn't do a major release every year maybe they would just patch the updates to keep their cost down but I'm confident that we can find our f1 fix somewhere.  Also I think they would concentrate on the hardcore fans even more if codies did decide not to do it anymore.  Anyway why would people who can't drive without assists not buy the game anymore? Oh yeah because their fickle