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Anyone find it ironic they're trying to push esports hard but the online mode is completely broken?

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I just find it pretty strange there's this big push for esports but they won't talk about the multiplayer mode in the new game at all.

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Many/most sponsored, organized, & televised eSport events do not take place over the public internet under typical gaming conditions, but instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs - so eSports are not necessarily representative of "online multiplayer" (but it's convenient marketing to let people assume they're synonymous).


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Operator1 said:

Many/most sponsored, organized, & televised eSport events do not take place over the public internet under typical gaming conditions, but instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs - so eSports are not necessarily representative of "online multiplayer" (but it's convenient marketing to let people assume they're synonymous).



But when you see cars drifting out of corners illogically when spectating a LAN race you might as well question the whole package.

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Operator1 said:

Many/most sponsored, organized, & televised eSport events do not take place over the public internet under typical gaming conditions, but instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs - so eSports are not necessarily representative of "online multiplayer" (but it's convenient marketing to let people assume they're synonymous).



But when you see cars drifting out of corners illogically when spectating a LAN race you might as well question the whole package.
LAN is broken as well?! Damn son...

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With peer to peer its only ever going to work well with up to 4 players all with good internet connections 

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peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...

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Operator1 said:
 instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs

And even under those conditions on a LAN were everything is expected to be stable it was about as stable as Theresa May's strong and stable government.

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echo321 said:
peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)

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UP100 said:
echo321 said:
peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.

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UP100 said:
echo321 said:
peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.
well, there are just too many people that think that peer-to-peer=a lot of lag, and server=no lag.
This is just wrong and people won't believe it because they can name examples where it is that way. Maybe some people don't know what peer to peer is/means. 
If the netcode is good, peer to peer will always have lower ping. 
Some other people don't know what things can have influence on lag. One very big thing is pure speed. The faster you go, the higher the lag. Just do the maths. For example: 50miliseconds ping when driving at 300kmph. That makes a natural desync of over 4 meters. And there is nothing you can do about it. You would have to replace the peoples cars by AI's that try to estimate where the other players will be in 50ms. How the hell should the AI know now what the players are going to do in 50ms? It would cause even more lag/cars teleporting. 
CM just needs to improve the netcode and things will be fine...

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Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them

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Dez0808 said:
Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them
Yes, exactly. This is very important!

P2P connections aren't generally bad, but there are genres where it makes sense to use them, like slow-paced or turn-based games, or it doesn't, like in fast-paced games where you need the best possible connection.

echo321 said:


If the netcode is good, peer to peer will always have lower ping. 
In theory, yes absolutely! In practice, hell no!
Or have you ever seen a (racing) game that performs better with p2p connections than with a dedicated-server structure? In my 22 years of being a gamer, I certainly haven't. 


echo321 said:


CM just needs to improve the netcode and things will be fine...
Maybe better, but not 'fine'.


Actually, I am tired of this p2p discussion.
People also constantly forget that p2p connections rely on a client to host the game, which leads to additional load (and, therefore, possibly more lag) on the host's rig.
Let's just stop defending F1's use of p2p connections already mkay…?

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I think with esports growing up more and more in the future, CM will work on a more stable online experience. Maybe not for 2018 but we will see.
If they claim they are a small studio, they could go a similar road like mmorpg's. Maybe you could have both. Buy the game and use p2p like it is, or use a dedicated server structure for a monthly or yearly amount. We will see.

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UP100 said:
echo321 said:
peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)

So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff


^ Amen.



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Dez0808 said:
Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them

Even on dedicated servers, one person with a bad connection can be lag-skipping all over the place, affecting outcomes for all other players in the match.

Contrary to popular belief, the server model is not the sole determinant of the quality of a game's multiplayer experience: there have been P2P games that were great online & P2P games that were awful online, and there have also been dedicated-server-based games that were great online along with dedicated-server-based games that were awful online. P2P games with great netcode can work wonderfully, and dedicated-server-based games with awful netcode can be terrible. It's a red herring argument often used to derail discussions by trying to convince people that quality multiplayer is utterly impossible without dedicated servers.


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UP100 said:
echo321 said:
peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.
When did I say it's fine? Just get me a P2P game that won't become unplayable if one player has a bad performance. This is a major issue in every P2P game I have seen. My point would be to get another system that can be used in league races for example community owned dedicated servers (like what SE / ME do)

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If someone has a bad connection on peer to peer, he will also have a bad connection on server based connection. Having a server calculatiing and doublechecking all moves will make things even worse with people that have a bad connection. 
Just think of following: You are followed by a guy with bad connection, you come into a heavy braking zone like for example Monza turn 1. Just as the car behind comes to the braking zone he get a lag spike. Now what happens? The person behind can brake as much as he wants, the server will not register it, so it will NOT slow down his car. Dependent on ho it's coded, his car will continue with the latest input, which is full throttle, or it will go with no input and just roll straight on. So no matter what, his car will come very fast closer to you as it can't brake. Even if the server gets connection back to that player before his car hits you, it will not safe you from geting taken out, as the input  the player did while that spike is not being updated. So all you will see is that the car behind just takes you out braking wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to late. 
With peer to peer, in this situation, you would not get taken out because ass soon as you get the connection back, the car behind will get the updated position from his pov. He will just lag backwards on your screen, but not hit you. 

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echo321 said:
If someone has a bad connection on peer to peer, he will also have a bad connection on server based connection. Having a server calculatiing and doublechecking all moves will make things even worse with people that have a bad connection. 
Just think of following: You are followed by a guy with bad connection, you come into a heavy braking zone like for example Monza turn 1. Just as the car behind comes to the braking zone he get a lag spike. Now what happens? The person behind can brake as much as he wants, the server will not register it, so it will NOT slow down his car. Dependent on ho it's coded, his car will continue with the latest input, which is full throttle, or it will go with no input and just roll straight on. So no matter what, his car will come very fast closer to you as it can't brake. Even if the server gets connection back to that player before his car hits you, it will not safe you from geting taken out, as the input  the player did while that spike is not being updated. So all you will see is that the car behind just takes you out braking wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to late. 
With peer to peer, in this situation, you would not get taken out because ass soon as you get the connection back, the car behind will get the updated position from his pov. He will just lag backwards on your screen, but not hit you. 
Ok so dedicated servers are satan’s Spawn and P2P is the greatest thing since sliced bread cool,but what about in a league racing scenario where certainly in the leagues I take part in your asked to do a ping test and everyone is known to have a good connection and we do numerous test races to find the absolute best host yet there are still incidents of lag and weird lag bubble crashes what say you then? That’s just poor net code not P2P and there in lies the answer to all our woes a better base off which to work,a better netcode.

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From my understanding the problem is the small amount of lag each player will have on p2p will add up to effect every player in the race. No one will ever have 0 ping so there is always lag no matter how good your connection is. If you times this by 22 players you get lag that effects every player in the game. If you add 1 player with a bad connection then even more lag is added to the game. For example you have 3 players A B and C. A and B have a really good connection. C has a bad connection. On p2p everyone has issues with lag. A and B see each other skipping or lagging as much as they see C.
With servers A and B would be able to play without any issues and would see each other moving correctly. C would see A and B jumping around as well and A and B seeing C jumping around. So servers are better as everyone but the people with bad connections are not effected as much. I understand it doesn't 100% work like this but the general rule is correct. 

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One of many solutions:

Dedicated Servers & P2P + Ping Lock + Overhauled Netcode = Better MP experience.

In other words, split MP into Ranked Mode, League Mode and Casual Mode:

-Ranked Mode = Dedicated Servers that are run by Codemasters, Ping Lock enabled as default, playing Ranked Mode will be the only way to gain XP points and rank up, in order to be able to race in Ranked Mode a certain level of Clean Driver Rating + Hours Spent Online + Clean Race Finishes is a must which can be earned by both racing in Casual and League Mode, ability to see all POV's in the recorded archive and send "complaints" directly to Codies who look into it if someone deliberately did crash into others or cut the corners and or was overall a pain in the *** to the whole server etc.

-League Mode = Dedicated Servers that are run by the players, Ping Lock enabled as default but can be turned off by the Admin, no XP points and thus no way to rank up, additional Servers will be offered to the public for a monthly fee of 3 - 12 bucks, people can run their leagues on it and or host random races but only with people that are on their friends list, ability to see the recorded races from all POV's on the Server, additional race slots up to 24 making the 4 extra slots become available to Race Directors who get Full Telemetry + Every POV + All Camera Angles at their disposal to judge the on track action, Race Directors can bring out the (Virtual) Safety Car + give Penalties + wave the Red Flag + give Penalties at the end of the race after they have studied up all the different POV's in the recorded archive etc.

-Casual Mode = P2P, open to everyone and basically the MP that we got already, no XP points and thus no way to rank up, this mode will only run 3 lappers / 5 lappers / 25% races and is not limited by a Ping Lock as default but it can be turned on as a option if the host wants to keep lag at a minimum.

------------------------------

At the end it all depends on whether or not the Netcode works flawlessly + a Ping Lock has been incorporated into MP and most importantly if Codemasters would be ready to go this, or a similar, path to improve the online section of their F1 franchise, my personal guess:

This probably won't happen as history repeatedly has shown that such "big drastic steps" of improving the game have never been made by Codies as of yet.

But they still came up and claimed that it's (((E-Sports Ready))) even though the last tournament has clearly shown that the races where held in 25% distance (Is that a joke or what?! 50% minimum, otherwise it's nothing more than kindergarten.) + no Safety Car + no Cockpit Cam restriction (Seriously, what was that? The supposed best of the best racers on this planet are not showing their skills by driving in the Cockpit?!?!) + "Lag Spikes" in LAN Mode (Biggest slap in the face of the fanbase, the community and E-Sports who were interested in a functioning MP, how the hell can someone mess up LAN Mode this much?!?!?!), ridiculous.

Time will tell how this pans out, til that day of "improvement" arrives,

#VoteWithYourWallet

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echo321 said:
....
With peer to peer, in this situation, you would not get taken out because ass soon as you get the connection back, the car behind will get the updated position from his pov. He will just lag backwards on your screen, but not hit you. 
Well, there is many half truths, but in this game, everythings works somehow worse than we hope.

There is a host who broadcasts the data he has from all players.
The car which is not in direct connection is simulated until you get the data from him.
If it takes a lot of time, you'll get sooner data from host.
In your example, you'll get get smashed anyway, because host has the same data as you (you'll only get those data later) and because until you get the data from the car behind it is simulated on your machine until you get at least the data from host. After the car behind updates its position, he never crashed you and your damage may never happened, but you've already send all other players your position & damage to all other players and they see you there with damage. No way back.
But you've affected other cars around, because somebody else have a bad connection so everybody in the session has a problem because of one. In P2P game, every end point have to simulate others, so technically every player has a different race experience as it is simulated on every machine.

There are a multiple ways how dedicated servers works, but possible problems are limited only to the bad connected cars.
Servers are not only sending data from other cars and updating their positions, they can also count the physics and everyone in the game see the same game, they are also able to see that connection spike happens (two way connection) and they can make that car transparent. That way all people can race without problems, everything is pretty synchronized and everybody has the same race/game experience.

I can only say, I was many times destroyed by cars without connection and I was also destroyed many times when I was pushed by that not connected cars out of track to the wall and I was also destroyed because the host was simulating me, while I stoped in front of the wall, the second after I was totally destroyed as I crashed in the host's sim. That's a buggy p2p game.

P2P is only entry problem, massive desync without game state fixes, not syncronised starting lights, not synchronized penalties, not synchronized yellow flags or SC - that's a bugged Codemasters netcode and gamecode. In the moment when CM want's to play the game "we have ESports" it is really ironic for us, but not for Codemasters, because `ESports` currently means for them to make a LAN party in front of many cameras and make a show from it.
In long term I believe they will be pushed to dedicated servers as any other games which wants to be good in online world - for example For Honor was using P2P when started, but was totally unplayable (similar to F1 multiplayer), now it has a dedicated servers.
Let's hope that dedicated servers will come soon (but I am afraid it comes with a new engine, which they will build with next console generation, so 3+ years in future).

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Let's sum this discussion up:
- Nobody *really* knows what 'p2p' or 'dedicated server' means;
- Whatever it might mean tho, it's still broken beyond belief and needs to be fixed;
- Codemasters still don't care (oh hi there @Faya and @jennyannem ); 

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SmiX said:

There are a multiple ways how dedicated servers works, but possible problems are limited only to the bad connected cars.
Servers are not only sending data from other cars and updating their positions, they can also count the physics and everyone in the game see the same game, they are also able to see that connection spike happens (two way connection) and they can make that car transparent. That way all people can race without problems, everything is pretty synchronized and everybody has the same race/game experience.

I disagree. It will also cause a lot of lag. Because until you get the calculated data from the server on any incident, your client still has to simulate on it's own what happened. This can and will cause teleportation of your own car aswell any other car. With a dedicated server you still won't see the other cars where they really. The data you get from other cars will always be „outdated“. But now, do you want your input to be outdated as well? What I mean if, for example, you brake, the input does not go to your client, but it is send straight to the server, calculated there and then send back to your client, and then your car starts to brake. You can imagine that this would be horrible to drive. And the further away from the server you are, the bigger the problem would be. You would have to make inputs to the game long before you can see/hear that you need to do so. Imagine you get tabbed at the rear a little at the exit of a corner. How should you catch the rear again ? You can only do input based on what you see. But the problem here, the input you make is not aligned with what you see. What you see is not happening right now, it already happened. The input you give is not done right now, but in the (close) future. This would limit multiplayer massivle. If you’re not sitting right next to the server you wouldn’t be able to play multiplayer at all, it would be undriveable.

So to make it driveable, the client would have to take your inputs straight away and simulate it on it’s own without having the server to calculate it first. But like this, you would have 2 calculations(that can affect you). And what happens when the 2 calculations do not align? Exactly, teleporting! Example: You get tabbed in the rear at the long right-turn at china leading onto the long straight. Becasue your client only has „outdated“ data on the other drivers, your client might not register the contact, making you think „all fine“. Now as server and client have 2 different calculations, the server will get „right“. Until the data that you’re spinning out is send to you, you still drive the corner normally(input: turning right and probaly full throttle) with the „wrong“ data made up by your client. Then, when the correct data has reached your client, your car will just teleport and you find yourself in a spin, and with the input you still give at that very moment the outcome will even get worse…

Having 2 calculations (that affect you) can and will cause teleporting of not only other cars but your car aswell. it will have the same desync going on like there is with peer to peer, plus it will also teleport your own car.

For those reasons, with the current form of multiplayer we have, I prefer peer to peer. Your car will not teleport, you have no further input-delay for server doublechecking, and you are not limited to live right next to the server to have a driveable multiplayer… When i have to chose between only other cars lagging and other cars plus my own car lagging, then I always would chose the former. My personel opinion, but i think it makes it more driveable for everyone.

Just think about it, when you would have a player in the lobby who sees his own car lagging around on his screen. He(or she) might be the nicest and cleanest driver in the world, but when his car lags around on his screen, his moves would be so unpredictable for everyone else that he would take out so many people.  So in this case peer to peer make it more playable for everyone in that lobby.

 

Further, i think codies are more interested in making it best possible to race other people all around the world. It wouldn’t make sense to them to limit players and even excluding people from playing multiplayer. That’s why i guess peer to peer will never disapear… Whether you like it or not.


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