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Lets Talk about Vettel.

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So in my Who do you think will become the 2014 Formula 1 world champion? thread there was a big discussion about Vettel. People were talking about how good he is or how he had the best car for four years or how he has a bad car now or how he would face up to Hamilton. I would like to here what others have to say about him but please let it be nice even if you disagree with me or the other fans. View this as a fan page. If you are fan I want to here what you have to say. I think it would be cool if every F1 driver had a Mercedes car. Then we could see who really is the fastest. Would be Vettel, Hamilton or even Ricciardo? Who knows? If you are a fan of any other F1 driver leave it in the comments and tell us why.

I am a fan of Vettel because I like his driving style. He is only 26 and he has a total of 1,482 points, 39 wins and 63 podiums. He was the first to win for Red Bull as well. He has acomplished a lot over the past few years and that is why I am a fan.

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Hamilton so far I think will win this world championship. If Ferrari get in the top 3 car, I would bet on Alonso.

By the way, there's no such thing as driving style. Each car have different aero, thus it is the reason why some people think there's a thing about driving style. The driver simply drive & adapt to the car. 

The driver may tend to make common silly mistake thus it is not a style, but a flaw in his driving.

The day the law of physic & the best path to be get the fastest time has style, chickens will have teeth.

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He's an average driver with a massive ego and a large, child-like sense of entitlement.

It makes me smile immensely to see how he struggles when driving a car that can't win, but is in line with what others around him are driving. I love how it's showing that he isn't the best driver after all, and that he was lucky to be in cars developed by Newey, cars which always gave him an advantage. 

Long live the new Formula 1 (as long as Vettel stays in Renault powered cars)

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Thank you for making this thread, now I never have to try and have a normal discussion on the other threads without some people acting like jackasses and derailing it.

As for Vettel himself, I couldn't possibly care less at this juncture. All I'm thinking is Ricciardo is kicking his ass.

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The only season where I can honestly say Vettel overachieved is 2008. Or was that just because Bourdais was rubbish? I wonder what would've happened if Vettel moved to RBR in 2009 and the car was still shit. 

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If Vettel does what Alonso did in 2012, I will openly admit he is one of the best. Until that day though, I think he's in the second tier.

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The only season where I can honestly say Vettel overachieved is 2008. Or was that just because Bourdais was rubbish? I wonder what would've happened if Vettel moved to RBR in 2009 and the car was still shit. 
Bourdais is generally rubbish :P Even he could finish on the podium in Monza that year if he didn't stall on the grid.

And remember back then Newey was designing both RB and STR cars.

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mike96 said:
The only season where I can honestly say Vettel overachieved is 2008. Or was that just because Bourdais was rubbish? I wonder what would've happened if Vettel moved to RBR in 2009 and the car was still shit. 
Bourdais is generally rubbish :P Even he could finish on the podium in Monza that year if he didn't stall on the grid.

And remember back then Newey was designing both RB and STR cars.
Wasn't it Wet back then ;)

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Im a fan of the sport, i like a particular team but tend not to single out a single driver to support.

I don't see why there is so much negativity surrounding Vettel, as a person i can only say he seems very similar to Schumacher, ruthless, self assured, determined and he is very fast. Its not his fault his car was so good, he used it to his advantage and got the most out of it for 4 years in a row, what an achievement!!! there seems to be a lot of jealousy from clearly biased fans of other drivers who think that there preferred driver should have had all his championships. i don't see it this way at all! Alonso was offered the red bull seat before Vettel (as far back as 2008 i think) and he knocked it back, i bet he regrets it big time! he chose to go back to Renault for more money, he was 2 x champion so that was his choice. Then there is Hamilton his fans seem the most biased of all, claiming Vettel was a double diffuser champ/crash champ/not worthy champ i just don't see it this way. Does that mean Hamilton or Rosberg will be the ERS champ? If Hamilton beats Vettels pole recored this year will it be seen as bad as Hamiltons fans view Vettels achievements? when a car clearly has an advantage then that car will will the championship, in 2010 i wouldn't say Red Bull had a massive advantage yet they won the championship at the last race of the season from 3rd in the championship to beat Alonso, it wasn't handed to them on a plate they were hungry and went out and took it, and kept on taking it for the next 4 years, well done to them! Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso in the wet in Monza, and you question his talent. I don't ever remember Alonso winning in his Minardi (former Toro Rosso team) or Hamilton winning in a lower team so where is all this Vettel has to prove himself with a poor car, he's been there done it, got the t-shirt and 4 championships to go with it  and i wouldn't be surprised if he won another 4

=D>

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I'm not sure where to start with this.

I think the main negativity is from how predictable, and how boring the sport became with him just dominating all the time. I know it gradually put me off watching, knowing that the outcome of each race was more or less predetermined. I don't watch racing to see one guy just romp off into the lead with nobody else in the field being able to catch him, I watch to see a battle for the win. 
And for me that's what's different this year. Rather than just 1 driver being able to win, there's 2 at least, and so far Mercedes are letting that happen. If Red Bull had been dominant again this season, I really can't see them having let a Bahrain style battle happen with Vettel and Ricciardo.

To be fair to Alonso, Red Bull in 2008 were an unproven team, whereas Renault was the team he won his 2 WDC's with. Had I been in his position Renault would have absolutely been an easier choice than Red Bull. 

As for Monza 2008, he was in the car that suited the conditions best over those 2 days. He didn't win again that season and only really seemed competitive in wet conditions. If he was so great then why is that the case? Surely he could have won 2 races that season if he could perform to that level? Whereas Hamilton, 2009 his car was a joke. Yet he still managed 2 wins, and should have had a 3rd. Before you say he had the best car in the second half of the season, I'd say Red Bull did, yet Hamilton could still beat them. And considering he's the only current driver to have won a race in every season he's competed in...

I suppose when I said I hated Vettel, I should have clarified a little. I don't hate him when he's away from F1. He seems like a genuinely nice guy, his Autosport speech and Top Gear interview had me laughing and smiling. 
But his attitude at a race weekend stinks. From saying Webber didn't deserve to win, whining that Raikkonen left him no space, calling Karthikeyan a cucumber even though Vettel gave him no space, blaming and moaning at the team when his car isn't right: "Do something! I have no power!", and blaming others when he's in the wrong - I seem to recall him blaming Bruno Senna for the turn 4 crash at Brazil 2012, yet it's clear on the footage that Vettel swooped at the apex as if Senna wasn't there.

There's more (his shoddy drive in Abu Dhabi 2012 which was hailed as 'great' is one) but I can't be bothered to bring more up. All that's left to say is that Vettel has had his time in the spotlight, and I for one hope it's over permanently.

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If Vettel never kept telling his team over the radio to make the guy in front of him pull over so he can get past and also stopped showing his finger he would be a likable guy.

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Memories must be short amongst fans to not remember Alonso and in fact Hamilton when they were at the same stage Vettel has been in the last few years, with some of the actions that between them they have committed. Young, and with titles in their pockets, any driver at that stage thinks he's the c0ck of the walk, so to knock only Vettel down in that respect is a bit harsh. As for Monza 2008, of course variables fell in to his hands, how else are you going to win in a car that in normal conditions at that time was the 5th/6th fastest car? That kind of explains why he didn't win again that last season, and doesn't take away from his win in Monza either. And for what it's worth about Bourdais, before he arrived in F1 he was actually seen as a promising talent, I guess he didn't become 4x ChampCar champion for no reason. Maybe the reason everyone says he's rubbish is just because Vettel made him look so in their season together, but that's another debate for another day. Aside from all this though, it still amuses me how people think a 4x world champion is simply an average driver after seeing this year, which I guess would make Webber a very, very poor driver considering in 3 of Vettel's 4 championship years Webber couldn't even get within 100 points of Vettel. What's even more amusing though is how quickly this assumption has been made, after 4 troubled races. Give it the season, and if it continues in the same fashion the last two races have gone I'll take my hat off to Ricciardo at the end of the season. I've seen a report earlier today though that says Vettel will get a new chassis for Barcelona, as the one he used in China did apparently have a fault. So I'd hazard a guess China was a bit of a one off.

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Im a fan of the sport, i like a particular team but tend not to single out a single driver to support.

I don't see why there is so much negativity surrounding Vettel, as a person i can only say he seems very similar to Schumacher, ruthless, self assured, determined and he is very fast. Its not his fault his car was so good, he used it to his advantage and got the most out of it for 4 years in a row, what an achievement!!! there seems to be a lot of jealousy from clearly biased fans of other drivers who think that there preferred driver should have had all his championships. i don't see it this way at all! Alonso was offered the red bull seat before Vettel (as far back as 2008 i think) and he knocked it back, i bet he regrets it big time! he chose to go back to Renault for more money, he was 2 x champion so that was his choice. Then there is Hamilton his fans seem the most biased of all, claiming Vettel was a double diffuser champ/crash champ/not worthy champ i just don't see it this way. Does that mean Hamilton or Rosberg will be the ERS champ? If Hamilton beats Vettels pole recored this year will it be seen as bad as Hamiltons fans view Vettels achievements? when a car clearly has an advantage then that car will will the championship, in 2010 i wouldn't say Red Bull had a massive advantage yet they won the championship at the last race of the season from 3rd in the championship to beat Alonso, it wasn't handed to them on a plate they were hungry and went out and took it, and kept on taking it for the next 4 years, well done to them! Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso in the wet in Monza, and you question his talent. I don't ever remember Alonso winning in his Minardi (former Toro Rosso team) or Hamilton winning in a lower team so where is all this Vettel has to prove himself with a poor car, he's been there done it, got the t-shirt and 4 championships to go with it  and i wouldn't be surprised if he won another 4

=D>
Thanks! I totally agree with you! That 2010 win was intense and he won it with pure skill.

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Im a fan of the sport, i like a particular team but tend not to single out a single driver to support.

I don't see why there is so much negativity surrounding Vettel, as a person i can only say he seems very similar to Schumacher, ruthless, self assured, determined and he is very fast. Its not his fault his car was so good, he used it to his advantage and got the most out of it for 4 years in a row, what an achievement!!! there seems to be a lot of jealousy from clearly biased fans of other drivers who think that there preferred driver should have had all his championships. i don't see it this way at all! Alonso was offered the red bull seat before Vettel (as far back as 2008 i think) and he knocked it back, i bet he regrets it big time! he chose to go back to Renault for more money, he was 2 x champion so that was his choice. Then there is Hamilton his fans seem the most biased of all, claiming Vettel was a double diffuser champ/crash champ/not worthy champ i just don't see it this way. Does that mean Hamilton or Rosberg will be the ERS champ? If Hamilton beats Vettels pole recored this year will it be seen as bad as Hamiltons fans view Vettels achievements? when a car clearly has an advantage then that car will will the championship, in 2010 i wouldn't say Red Bull had a massive advantage yet they won the championship at the last race of the season from 3rd in the championship to beat Alonso, it wasn't handed to them on a plate they were hungry and went out and took it, and kept on taking it for the next 4 years, well done to them! Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso in the wet in Monza, and you question his talent. I don't ever remember Alonso winning in his Minardi (former Toro Rosso team) or Hamilton winning in a lower team so where is all this Vettel has to prove himself with a poor car, he's been there done it, got the t-shirt and 4 championships to go with it  and i wouldn't be surprised if he won another 4

=D>
Thanks! I totally agree with you! That 2010 win was intense and he won it with pure skill.
So winning by 4 points is pure skill?

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I've held this opinion for a while, and still do. I think if you put them in equal cars, Alonso, maybe even Hamilton, would beat out Vettel. Not saying that Vettel isn't a great driver, but I think that both are better than Vettel in equal cars.

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This will be a series of posts evaluating the performance of Vettel in his consecutive championship winning years to see whether or not he deserved the success he got.

Vettel... Vettel... Vettel... Who? The most talented driver to grace the sport to some. A true champion of Grand Prix racing and a legend whose natural ability brought him success in the highest level of Motorsport. No doubt about it I take my hat of to him, he's now one of the greats due to how hydrated his success has elevated him to, not even mentioning the sheer amount of records he's broken in such a short period of time at such a pinch of an age. 

No question about it he has won on merit and has consistently proved his worth against all the rival competition to be considered the guy who should be a "4 time World Champion".

Now whilst I agree his success is mostly unrivalled by 99% of drivers who have ever took part in the Formula One WDC, does he actually deserve most of the titles he has extended to his name? I would say no. He deserved 2010 more than anyone. This is something I'd always think, but my opinion changed slightly coming into this post, Red bull actually had the fastest car that season like most of their future chassis' after looking back at a few articles in 2010. If you disagree here's proof. The RB6 lead the most amount of laps that season by a huge margin and took every pole position bar 3 or 4. 

The thing I can admit is it was quite unreliable. The various malfunctions to the car that season cost Vettel around 48 points after the Japanese GP. Now the thing is his driver mistakes cost him in access of around 43 points after the same round. To put that in perspective Hamilton only lost 12 points due to driver errors, and a comparable 35 reliability points lost. If you do some maths with the data available here and the remaining race results, you can see (discounting driver errors as they made the mistake) that Hamilton should be second in the championship with surprisingly 56 points behind Vettel after the final round in Abu Dhabi. The problem here is as mentioned Vettel had the quickest and best all round car that season (no need to bring up reliability as that is put into the equation here), Hamilton had the 3rd fastest and best overall car according to the link provided and was for most part battling it out with the Ferrari's and other rivals, while Vettel should have really won 8 or so races in the same fashion as 2011 by getting pole and cruising home, even though he had his fare share of sitting in the pack, it wasn't as much however. 

Vettel won 2010 by a very small margin, but he in fact should have won with a lot to spare, the point I'm not trying to make here is that he is very talented and won with his own talent and ability, but rather he was gifted with the fasted car and took advantage of it like in 2011, where 10 poles were made by him and he should have won 8-9 of those if reliability didn't play apart in it. This shows he is better than Webber no doubt about it, and Webber wasn't and isn't a good bench mark for him to be compared to. The fact that he should have won by around a 60 point lead over Hamilton in 2010 also shows how superior the car was and how much it suited him more, because I can tell you right now from a non-bias point of view Vettel is not that much better than Hamilton or Alonso, if at all. I believe most would generally agree with this statement, especially the first part who are Vettel fans.

Now we can conclude that whether Vettel actually deserved the title or not is subjective depending on how you view the situations throughout the year, but I personally would say Hamilton deserved it more. He made the least amount of mistakes from all of the title challengers, he should have gotten second in the end and all this in a inferior car. Whilst some believe Webber and Alonso should have won I disagree. Webber was out classed by Vettel by a huge margin in the same machinery, that was the best car on the grid and with very few reliable problems. Alonso got beaten by Hamilton in a better car - even if not by much, also he made many more point costly mistakes. 

In my opinion Hamilton is the true WDC of 2010 based on driver performance and what he managed against a fierce opposition.
I think I'll continue this evaluation of Vettel's success through to 2013 in other posts to come (considering the main purpose of this thread) to either see if he deserved the championships he won or not based. I'd like to see a counter argument for the Vettel supporters so we can see what a different take on this season would show.

So far Vettel 3/4 true championships won based on his performance and superior car performances relative to the opposition, that's not to say he did a bad job. 

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The only thing I'll say to this for now is honestly well done. Clearly you've put a lot of thought in to this, and I know, with the greatest of respect, you do tend to be one of the bigger Vettel critics and even though a lot of your post is based on opinion it's good you're going about it constructively :) I would question however how many points you say Vettel lost as a result of reliability. I don't really get what you mean by after the Japanese GP thing, but across the season he retired from the lead in Australia, he retired from the lead in Korea, and he fell to 4th from the lead in Bahrain with mechanical faults and straight away that's 63 points. And it's very much opinionated as to whether the 12 points Hamilton lost (at least) in Singapore was his fault or not, added with the 12 points in Italy.

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@Liam12d Your argument sounds like the Pritchard Scale from Dead Poets Society. If Formula 1 was based off this random idea of who deserved it most based on the quality of their car and driver error, why bother giving points for finishing positions? Racing isn't about who deserves a title most, it's about who finishes first.

I agree Alonso and Hamilton are probably slightly better than Vettel, but that doesn't mean Vettel doesn't 'deserve' one of his titles that he clearly won. Everyone seems to be confusing World Champion with 'driver of the year'... the two don't have to be the same. Hamilton or Alonso or whomever may have been driver of the year based on a number of factors but that will never negate the fact that Vettel was World Champion from 2010-1013.

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Vettel legitimately won the WDC from 2010 to 2013. Whether he did it himself, or with the assistance of a very good car, is purely subjective.

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Vettel legitimately won the WDC from 2010 to 2013. Whether he did it himself, or with the assistance of a very good car, is purely subjective.
It just shows this year he is having trouble driving the car without the assists he was used to from his WDC years.

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I've held this opinion for a while, and still do. I think if you put them in equal cars, Alonso, maybe even Hamilton, would beat out Vettel. Not saying that Vettel isn't a great driver, but I think that both are better than Vettel in equal cars.

why do you think Alonso doesn't want Vettel at Ferrari?



The only skill that got Vettel the 2010 WDC was Petrov's defensive skill.

that doesn't say much for Alonso's overtaking skills, they were duped by a better strategy and lost it all on there own, covering webber when every1 watching knew they should have stayed out and raced at the front with vettel and the 2 mclarens. the fact he could not get passed petrov is irrelevant to vettel being the champ, its motor racing after all did you want petrov to just leave the door open and wave him by?? foolish. To see Alonso blaming petrov after the race showed what he is like as a person. Alonso is thee best driver in F1 just now its just a pity about his attitude.

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