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Lets Talk about Vettel.


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Ok, take 2: (thnx to Prawn)
KuB said:
I´sorry but can anybody give me an example where vettel shows that he´s arrogant


<videos>
(+ calling another driver an idiot/cucumber)

Just three things off the top of my head.

If you think 'arrogant' isn't quite the word, 'spoilt' and 'self-entitled' work too.
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I wish people would stop jumping on these examples as if they are completely abnormal for any driver, or sportsman in general. Is calling another driver a cucumber is much worse than calling other drivers "fricking ridiculous". And demanding for another driver to be moved out the way in order to win? Vettel wasn't the inventor of that either believe it or not, try USA 2007. 
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VetteIfan said:
Is calling another driver a cucumber is much worse than calling other drivers "fricking ridiculous". 
The problem was, Karthikeyan wasn't at fault there. Vettel had acres of space on his right and yet squeezed the HRT as though expecting it to reverse to get out of his way. So he was at fault, and yet blamed the other driver. That's what makes him arrogant and self-entitled.

VetteIfan said:
And demanding for another driver to be moved out the way in order to win? Vettel wasn't the inventor of that either believe it or not, try USA 2007. 
'Lewis is too slow, get him out of the way'? I don't believe Alonso ever said something false like that. If you remember what happened in 2013, Webber pulled away from Vettel immediately after that message was sent. Vettel didn't even bother to check if his teammate was saving tyres or anything, he just assumed he was slow. The circumstances were also different- Alonso joined McLaren with the expectation (right or wrong, that's another matter) that he'd be given priority. As opposed to Red 'We Let Our Drivers Race' Bull.
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This debate again. You have to take things people say under pressure and in them moment not entirely seriously. I get annoyed at things and blame the other person but then later realise that actually it was my fault.
Alonso has said stuff like this before, Hamilton has probably said something similar. People do, because they are passionate and want to win. When it does not happen, people get frustrated. 

I don't like Alonso all that much, if he says something on the radio in an aggressive manor, I don't sit there and say he's arrogant or self-entitled. Alonso took a swipe at Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010, that is worse than things Vettel has done. He took a swipe at someone for driving well...Great sportsmanship. But he later apologised, and I didn't sit there calling him this and that when he did it originally, I just thought it was bad sportsmanship.
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yugin96 said:
VetteIfan said:
Is calling another driver a cucumber is much worse than calling other drivers "fricking ridiculous". 
The problem was, Karthikeyan wasn't at fault there. Vettel had acres of space on his right and yet squeezed the HRT as though expecting it to reverse to get out of his way. So he was at fault, and yet blamed the other driver. That's what makes him arrogant and self-entitled.

VetteIfan said:
And demanding for another driver to be moved out the way in order to win? Vettel wasn't the inventor of that either believe it or not, try USA 2007. 
'Lewis is too slow, get him out of the way'? I don't believe Alonso ever said something false like that. If you remember what happened in 2013, Webber pulled away from Vettel immediately after that message was sent. Vettel didn't even bother to check if his teammate was saving tyres or anything, he just assumed he was slow. The circumstances were also different- Alonso joined McLaren with the expectation (right or wrong, that's another matter) that he'd be given priority. As opposed to Red 'We Let Our Drivers Race' Bull.
Well for one, Karthikeyan was at fault. From the reverse angle it looks like Vettel swipes across him. From the front it's clear Karthikeyan is left a cars width. But instead of backing off the throttle when he got himself wide on to the kerb he decided to turn straight back onto the track as a front runner was lapping him. That's the reason he got the penalty. 

Even leaving this aside though, Massa was nowhere near at fault when Hamilton decided to dive bomb him in to the hairpin at Monaco. So even if we presume that Karthikeyan's at fault like you say, you've still not really said the difference in the situations. Like I said, it isn't really abnormal. 

And please, as if a driver needs to echo an exact statement to make the situations comparable. Because driving over to the pit wall and shaking your fist at your pit crew is much better. And listening to Lewis' radio comments after the race, it shows there was a clear request from Fernando. It's not really fit for us to say whether Seb asked about Mark's situation. Because we don't know, basically. We heard one line from what is an almost constant transcript. And yeah, priority. Priority was something Alonso demanded that year, rather than what was assured (contrary to popular belief). 

At least now Seb is getting beaten occasionally he's getting on with the job on track, not trying to sneak behind his teammates back and force the boss in to prioritising him or sabotaging his teammates car ;) 

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Massa turned in massively early iirc, almost jumped over the kerbs. To me that looked like he wanted this crash to happen, knowing that at this low speed Lewis was always the one losing out more, because the sidepod never cracks as easy as a frontwing. Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXDmqjnPG7k

Besides, let's take a look at what you said a few weeks ago on the incident between MSC and Hill:

Being ahead when you turn in to a corner doesn't give a driver an unrivalled access to swing the car towards the apex.

In our case, Lewis was in a position to demand at least a little bit of space as you can see when you stop the video at 0:16 and Massa STILL turned in as if there was no tomorrow. But Lewis is the only one to blame according to you. Sounds like double-standard for me.

As for Alonso, you really cannot compare Indy 2007 with Malaysia 2013. Saying that your team should get your teammate out of the way because he is too slow is just about the most arrogant thing I've ever heard, no fist shaking is getting close to that.

I'm not saying that Alonso isn't the back-stabbing bastard we all know he can be when needed, but it's just that the counterexample you've mentioned for Malaysia 2013 is a really weak one imo.
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VetteIfan said:
Well for one, Karthikeyan was at fault. From the reverse angle it looks like Vettel swipes across him. From the front it's clear Karthikeyan is left a cars width. But instead of backing off the throttle when he got himself wide on to the kerb he decided to turn straight back onto the track as a front runner was lapping him. That's the reason he got the penalty. 

Even leaving this aside though, Massa was nowhere near at fault when Hamilton decided to dive bomb him in to the hairpin at Monaco. So even if we presume that Karthikeyan's at fault like you say, you've still not really said the difference in the situations. Like I said, it isn't really abnormal. 

And please, as if a driver needs to echo an exact statement to make the situations comparable. Because driving over to the pit wall and shaking your fist at your pit crew is much better. And listening to Lewis' radio comments after the race, it shows there was a clear request from Fernando. It's not really fit for us to say whether Seb asked about Mark's situation. Because we don't know, basically. We heard one line from what is an almost constant transcript. And yeah, priority. Priority was something Alonso demanded that year, rather than what was assured (contrary to popular belief). 

At least now Seb is getting beaten occasionally he's getting on with the job on track, not trying to sneak behind his teammates back and force the boss in to prioritising him or sabotaging his teammates car ;) 

Have to disagree. You say that Karthikeyan was 'left a car's width', but if he had to go onto the kerbs to avoid contact then, well, he wasn't. In any case Vettel had no need to push Karthikeyan so far wide and expect him to back out completely; he could've avoided contact by pulling right once he'd exited the corner. Remember, Karthikeyan might've been a lap down but he was still running his own race and you have to make allowances for the fact that he is going to try and lose as little time as possible to the blue flags. Vettel's 'get out of my way' attitude is exactly what I mean when I call him self-entitled.

Yes, we don't know what Vettel said over the team radio, but let's assume he did ask about Mark's strategy:

"Is Mark saving tyres?"
"Yes, Seb, he's on the same strategy as you."
"Get him out of the way, he's too slow."

That doesn't seem right either. They were on the same strategy and both were saving tyres, so how could Vettel have assumed that Webber was too slow?


I never watched that live, but Massa looks like he turns in to prevent Hamilton diving at him. Hamilton had decided a while ago he was going to do it, and failed to react to Massa's defense. Hamilton's fault.
You know I'm a big Massa fan, but imo Massa was clearly at fault there. Hamilton stuck his nose in and wasn't coming from an outrageously long way back; Massa simply either didn't or chose not to see him.
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So I´m sorry but i wasn´t at home.
Vettel isn´t arrogant. That aren´t examples for that. I hate teamorder so the faster one should win.So it´s right that vettel overtook webber in malaysia 2013. And yes it was Vettel fault as he touched Karthikeyan but it´s normal for a race driver to annoy about something. As a ambitious race driver you mostly gives the blame another driver than you.
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So you will say that we all are racists because some people think vettel is arrogant and some think not.
And i don´t think that´s all down to nationality. I´m from Germany and i like Alonso because he´s a good driver. Vettel too, sure, but i´m not a vettel fan at the moment and so you can´t say that´s all down to nationality.


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I'm gonna stop because when I came back to the forum I made a vow I wouldn't get involved in stuff like this involving a certain driver by the name of Mr. Vettel. My response to that yugin would just be my viewpoint again, so we're going around in circles anyway.

I think we can conclude we disagree :p
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I wouldn't say I'm racist either as unlike with Schumacher I personally don't think Vettel's that arrogant a bit moany sometimes yes if he doesn't get things his own way but some sports stars in general can be like that. Tbh in my view the opportunities that he's been given he's taken though. Some of the opportunities may have been wrong like in Malaysia with Webber but  if he really wanted that place he should have fought back. After all Vettel never followed team orders there so at that stage why should he? But that's how I see it.
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I guarantee you if Hamilton had done Multi-21 it'd be "Justice" and his fans would say that team orders were wrong. People just love to hate, even if it makes them a hypocrite. People don't agree with team orders and hate Ferrari for it yet when someone they don't like ignores them and beats someone that is popular, they are suddenly justified and should be obeyed and the guy that ignored them is "evil" and all that is wrong in the world. I've always said, they are fine if it is for the title at the last 3 races, nothing else. 2 races in is not the time. 

(Cue 6 dislikes)
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Although I didn't like what Vettel did, I did admire his ruthlesness, even though I did beneath my breath. What p***** me off me more was his two faced attitude apologising at the time with BS excuses, which I never bought, then saying the complete opposite two weeks later. 
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AMS97KRR said:
I guarantee you if Hamilton had done Multi-21 it'd be "Justice" and his fans would say that team orders were wrong. People just love to hate, even if it makes them a hypocrite. People don't agree with team orders and hate Ferrari for it yet when someone they don't like ignores them and beats someone that is popular, they are suddenly justified and should be obeyed and the guy that ignored them is "evil" and all that is wrong in the world. I've always said, they are fine if it is for the title at the last 3 races, nothing else. 2 races in is not the time. 

(Cue 6 dislikes)
You're half-way there... living on a prayer :P
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Vettel is as good as any of the other top 6 drivers. Much like Shumacher or Senna, his wins have come about because he's one of the top drivers who happens to also have the best car and the best crew. He's a great driver though, can't take anything away from that.

I'm a huge Ricciardo fan, but the reason Ric is out pacing Vettel is because the 2014 car suits his driving and experience much greater than it suits Vettel. 
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andmcq said:
Vettel is as good as any of the other top 6 drivers. Much like Shumacher or Senna, his wins have come about because he's one of the top drivers who happens to also have the best car and the best crew. He's a great driver though, can't take anything away from that.

I'm a huge Ricciardo fan, but the reason Ric is out pacing Vettel is because the 2014 car suits his driving and experience much greater than it suits Vettel. 
So , the same reason Vettel beat Webber then ?  ;)
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I have no idea why Vettel isn't beating Ricciardo. I expect Vettel typically having a strong second half of the season to rectify it, but I wasn't expecting this at all. Different perspectives might also be a factor, Ricci will be a lot more happier with a relative slow Red Bull than Vettel ever would, looking at where they came from. But yeah.
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Deep inside all of us knew that one day the day would come when Vettel is going through a difficult phase car-wise.

Have to say, I expected more of him. Not necessarily pace-wise, but in terms of his approach to these difficulties. All he does is moan about Renault or F1 in general. Is it that all these years with all the success coming in so easy - sometimes it looked as if it was effortless - have spoiled his character?

People called him the new Schumacher because of his record-breaking success, but to me, this year so far has proved that he's far away from Schumi. Michael's approach to difficult times was so much more different, love him or hate him but he was a motivator to his crew. Vettel doesn't even come close to that atm, it seems like he has no fighting spirit left once he's not in a car to win the championship with after all these years at the top.

What goes around comes around. The premature and massive records and stats might haunt him now. I remember Alonso saying last year that once Seb doesn't have the best car on the grid and ends up finishing 4th, 5th or 7th, these 4 titels will be bad news for him. People will value them even less than they did during his era.

Character building times for Seb. About effing time.
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andmcq said:
Vettel is as good as any of the other top 6 drivers. Much like Shumacher or Senna, his wins have come about because he's one of the top drivers who happens to also have the best car and the best crew. He's a great driver though, can't take anything away from that.

I'm a huge Ricciardo fan, but the reason Ric is out pacing Vettel is because the 2014 car suits his driving and experience much greater than it suits Vettel. 
So , the same reason Vettel beat Webber then ?  ;)
No, Vettel is just a better driver. 
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andmcq said:
andmcq said:
Vettel is as good as any of the other top 6 drivers. Much like Shumacher or Senna, his wins have come about because he's one of the top drivers who happens to also have the best car and the best crew. He's a great driver though, can't take anything away from that.

I'm a huge Ricciardo fan, but the reason Ric is out pacing Vettel is because the 2014 car suits his driving and experience much greater than it suits Vettel. 
So , the same reason Vettel beat Webber then ?  ;)
No, Vettel is just a better driver. 
Only in a car that was using the diffuser.
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Lukedfrt said:
I can't believe the Qualifying record, Vettel was supposed to be the 1 lap master.
Not too difficult a job to be 6-2 up when Vettel has had 4 mechanical issues in qualifying. Of course though, that score is been milked by every TV station and news report around.

It seems I'm seeing a different position on the whole deal at Red Bull this season to everyone else, which is not really too surprising. Even with Dan driving for him what is the best car he's ever driven in the best form of his career in many people's eyes, he's still only 23 points ahead of a guy who's in his worst form in years, driving what is his worst car in years and suffering the mass of the reliability problems. I'm only hoping the luck will even itself out as the season continues, and with Seb's strongest circuits still to come, I'm still confident he'll come out his "miserable season" as the team winner. Dan, to reiterate as I've said before is doing a great job at the moment but surely he'll start taking the brunt of some of the luck sooner or later.

As for his supposed moaning, he's been moaning about the new engines and the way F1 has been heading since pre-season day 1, where no-one knew where anyone stood. As far as actual teamwork and effort goes, all I hear coming out of actual sources in the team is he isn't giving up and is working harder than ever to be able to find his sweet spot in these new regulations. As a fan, I can't ask for more than that.
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Seb, you do realize Dan has lost 18 points in Australia and at least 12 points in Malaysia with no fault of his own, right?

Besides, I don't take this whole "Dan's driving the best car of his career so far"-crap seriously either. That's Helmut Marko pet-talk to defend Seb. If anything, Daniel's Toro Rosso from last year is a faster car than his current RB. Nearly all of last years cars were faster than the fastest cars from 2014.


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VetteIfan said:

 Even with Dan driving for him what is the best car he's ever driven 

[Vettel] driving what is his worst car in years 


Why should that matter? It's the same car, built to the same spec, same for both drivers. And if Vettel is still adapting to the new cars, it's taking him far too long.
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Vettel himself stated that it was his own driving style that was hurting him. He used to be able to use the blown diffuser really well. He could create oversteer into the corners, use the diffuser to power out of the corners. They tried to replicated it this year but they couldn't so he has to change his style. 
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