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VR support in Dirt Rally 2 ?

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Why VR matters.

I've been a great fan of motorsports since I was a kid and James Hunt won the F1 world championship, I've raced karts (as a total amateur) for over 25 years, I've played racing games pretty much since they began, I even did a little work on developing Psion's Chequered flag game back in 1983.

But no matter how much I've wanted to love those racing games they've never quite done the trick. If they were too acardey then they just weren't racing games and nothing like the real thing. If they were too realistic then they were impossible to drive, the idea of properly controlling a race car on the limit when you're looking at a small screen trying to emulate the view from the cockpit was quite frankly laughable and never going to work for me. Maybe some of you can deal with that better than me, but for me no matter how much I've tried I just can't get anywhere near enough of a feel for the car to be able to drive it like that.

So basically for 30+ years of trying racing games and wanting them to work it never has. Then suddenly it all changed, I'd had DiRT rally for a while before the VR addon came out, but even more so than for other games before it was just too hard to get into. I didn't really progress beyond racing Mini's around rally cross tracks and the game was just gathering dust.

With VR it just suddenly clicked and I could properly drive these things, it didn't take that long before I was working my way up to the top of the Daily/Weekly events. Whilst certainly not the fastest driver out there, I can still get regular top 20's on a good run, top 10's on a very good run, and even the odd podium. For the 20 months Since the VR addon came out I've been utterly addicted to this game and still am. When I went on holiday and took a break from the game where did spend the first night away? In the Hotel Les Trois Vallees in Col De Turini, yes that's the hotel you see when sitting on the start line waiting to go :)

This is why VR matters, it's not a gimmick, or a nice little extra feature. For me it's a 100% essential component for making driving games work. It takes driving games to a whole new level that they've never been able to achieve before.

For those non VR fans who worry you might lose a little feature or two if they divert development to VR, think what would happen if VR gaming really does take off. VR makes such a massive difference, once the headsets go mass market, the market for driving games could easily multiply 5, 10, 20 or more times. How many miles of stages could Codemasters afford to make if the market was that much bigger? How much better could they make game with all those extra customers?

And for the Codemasters bean counters who think VR doesn't make sense, stop thinking so short term. Think how many more beans you'll have to count if this really takes off, then put some bloody effort into making sure it does take off. Go to the headset manufacturers get them to work with you, sell it to them how much your games can boost their headset sales, work together and just do whatever it takes to make this whole thing take off.

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@GreatApe

Great post - I have no interest in VR myself but really enjoyed the read and your passion :)

Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute, it wouldn't surprise me if they are currently doing the last part as you suggest. However, they wouldn't be able to make this public and of course saying "we'll do it" publicly would completely undermine their position if trying to coerce headset manufacturers into helping.

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GreatApe said:
once the headsets go mass market, the market for driving games could easily multiply 5, 10, 20 or more times.

As much as I like VR's potential, how do you figure this? 5, 10, 20 more times, really?

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nbates66 said:
GreatApe said:
once the headsets go mass market, the market for driving games could easily multiply 5, 10, 20 or more times.

As much as I like VR's potential, how do you figure this? 5, 10, 20 more times, really?
Yes really, especially if we're talking increases to Codemasters driving games. I'll cheat a little and say Gran Turismo doesn't count as the base to increase driving games sales from as it's too arcadey. So if we take a look at it's sales figures to get an idea of what's achievable:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/86332/gran-turismo-sport/
Shows Gran Turismo Sport with total sales of 3.4M

For Codemasters games.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/115633/f1-2016-codemasters/
0.78M

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/222006/f1-2018/
0.19M (and still rising fast I presume)

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/158226/dirt-4/
0.48M

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/86260/dirt-rally/
0.51M

So if F1 2016 simply matched Gran Turismo's sales that's 5 times straight off, DiRT rally would have 7 times the sales. So massive multiples are easily attainable if the game is good enough. My contention is any half decent driving game in VR is way more than good enough to match Gran Turismo's sales, if of course everyone had the VR gear. Only need to double Gran Turismo's sales and we're already looking 15 times the volume.

Once the ball starts rolling then extra revenue means the games can be made much better to boost sales even more, there will be a lot more money that could be earned from add on content as well, or subscription models for regular updates to cars and circuits. If the volumes of regular players online are high enough then you've got potential extra revenue streams from in game sponsorship.

Gran Turismo is PS4 only, so factor in a load more potential sales for PC & XBox as well.

Next stage more games, a new Grid Autosport, NASCAR, Indycar, Motorbike racing...

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Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute, it wouldn't surprise me if they are currently doing the last part as you suggest. However, they wouldn't be able to make this public and of course saying "we'll do it" publicly would completely undermine their position if trying to coerce headset manufacturers into helping.
I expect you're right, I think the big bottle neck is Sony as their lack of full PSVR support on Gran Turismo is a clear sign they don't get the potential for VR driving games.

I went to a VR development conference a little while back where a Sony representative did a talk. There was no mention of driving games at all when he was talking about what they're doing for PSVR. I was hoping there would be a Q&A afterwards where I could ask him about it, but unfortunately he didn't have time for any questions after his talk.


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GreatApe said:
nbates66 said:
GreatApe said:
once the headsets go mass market, the market for driving games could easily multiply 5, 10, 20 or more times.

As much as I like VR's potential, how do you figure this? 5, 10, 20 more times, really?
Yes really, especially if we're talking increases to Codemasters driving games. I'll cheat a little and say Gran Turismo doesn't count as the base to increase driving games sales from as it's too arcadey. So if we take a look at it's sales figures to get an idea of what's achievable:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/86332/gran-turismo-sport/
Shows Gran Turismo Sport with total sales of 3.4M

For Codemasters games.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/115633/f1-2016-codemasters/
0.78M

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/222006/f1-2018/
0.19M (and still rising fast I presume)

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/158226/dirt-4/
0.48M

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/86260/dirt-rally/
0.51M

So if F1 2016 simply matched Gran Turismo's sales that's 5 times straight off, DiRT rally would have 7 times the sales. So massive multiples are easily attainable if the game is good enough. My contention is any half decent driving game in VR is way more than good enough to match Gran Turismo's sales, if of course everyone had the VR gear. Only need to double Gran Turismo's sales and we're already looking 15 times the volume.

Once the ball starts rolling then extra revenue means the games can be made much better to boost sales even more, there will be a lot more money that could be earned from add on content as well, or subscription models for regular updates to cars and circuits. If the volumes of regular players online are high enough then you've got potential extra revenue streams from in game sponsorship.

Gran Turismo is PS4 only, so factor in a load more potential sales for PC & XBox as well.

Next stage more games, a new Grid Autosport, NASCAR, Indycar, Motorbike racing...

The source isn't really worth of any trust.

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GreatApe said:
So if we take a look at it's sales figures to get an idea of what's achievable:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/86332/gran-turismo-sport/
Shows Gran Turismo Sport with total sales of 3.4M
Worth noting that Gran Turismo Sport achieved this with mostly no VR support (minimal VR support in ONLY 1v1 mode) Why would that be? oh right PROCESSING POWER.

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I'm both a VR user and a software developer.  

VR is both the future and here now for many of us. In the sim racing enthusiast market, many of us have purchased realistic controls to improve our experience and purchased VR headsets to enhance the experience even more.

In the car racing community VR has already arrived in a big way and not having VR support when all the other car racing titles support them seems short sighted.

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.

The problem is that VR is no longer considered a bonus feature in this market. Other sim racing companies support VR because it is important and not because it is a requirement. The absence of VR support now looks like an omission rather than being a bonus, like we are being short changed and Codemasters is trying to get Oculus or someone else to anti up for a feature that is now expected. 

It sucks for them. It really does. I guarantee that simply taken from an accountant's standpoint adding VR support may not make any sense. However taken from a Marketing standpoint not having VR generates a pile of negative press and resentment from their user base.

Sadly I can't find a Win:Win for this. If they decided how much it would cost to add VR support and they put it up on Kickstarter with a goal amount I think that would still generate resentment from their user base.  Also the stakes and expectations would change.

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@GreatApe

Great post and all, but why should I care about VR? We're not immortal like you or everyone else; as I mentioned in my previous post, I wound up getting motion sickness from moving my head around whilst wearing the VR headset. If there was a trophy/achievement related to VR, I can definitely ignore it and move on.

I'll still simply buy the game without the VR and will have absolutely no regrets afterwards. You'd be surprised that not many of people like myself want to buy the game for the sake of VR. If any, I am perfectly fine fine with just buying the game, nothing else.

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OneTwo12 said:
@GreatApe

Great post and all, but why should I care about VR? We're not immortal like you or everyone else; as I mentioned in my previous post, I wound up getting motion sickness from moving my head around whilst wearing the VR headset. If there was a trophy/achievement related to VR, I can definitely ignore it and move on.

I'll still simply buy the game without the VR and will have absolutely no regrets afterwards. You'd be surprised that not many of people like myself want to buy the game for the sake of VR. If any, I am perfectly fine fine with just buying the game, nothing else.
I dont have triple screen or dd wheel, but i really hope they support both. Why? The more people who enjoy and talks good about this game, the more sales and more likley a sequel. No doubt the lack of vr are getting codemaster mutch bad pr. People beeing angry when you preview a game is a bad thing.

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kellemann said:
OneTwo12 said:
@GreatApe

Great post and all, but why should I care about VR? We're not immortal like you or everyone else; as I mentioned in my previous post, I wound up getting motion sickness from moving my head around whilst wearing the VR headset. If there was a trophy/achievement related to VR, I can definitely ignore it and move on.

I'll still simply buy the game without the VR and will have absolutely no regrets afterwards. You'd be surprised that not many of people like myself want to buy the game for the sake of VR. If any, I am perfectly fine fine with just buying the game, nothing else.
I dont have triple screen or dd wheel, but i really hope they support both. Why? The more people who enjoy and talks good about this game, the more sales and more likley a sequel. No doubt the lack of vr are getting codemaster mutch bad pr. People beeing angry when you preview a game is a bad thing.
I use triple screens and I'm fully aware that it is not being supported at launch, probably not even at all given previous games. 
I would obviously like it to be in, but I'm not furiously behaving like an a-hole about it on all forums available. I'm not directing that at you personally, but there are lots of toxic comments about VR out there. 

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rcheliguy said:

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.
When did they get paid to implement VR? I don't think anyone wants to pay Codies to include experimental VR in GRID: Autosport or Toybox Turbos which both had VR way before Dirt Rally was even released.

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A lot of things had already said. I haven't read all pages but pls Codemaster...add VR to this DR 2

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UP100 said:
rcheliguy said:

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.
When did they get paid to implement VR? I don't think anyone wants to pay Codies to include experimental VR in GRID: Autosport or Toybox Turbos which both had VR way before Dirt Rally was even released.


Occulus paid them to develop Vr support
Thats why its only suported with occulus and with steamvr using revive.
I race with a pimax 4k  and intend to buy the new pimax 5k.

Im not purchasing it if it has the VR Bug. (New Assetto Corsa fixed the vr bug)

Cheers

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cia001 said:
UP100 said:
rcheliguy said:

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.
When did they get paid to implement VR? I don't think anyone wants to pay Codies to include experimental VR in GRID: Autosport or Toybox Turbos which both had VR way before Dirt Rally was even released.


Occulus paid them to develop Vr support
Thats why its only suported with occulus and with steamvr using revive.
I race with a pimax 4k  and intend to buy the new pimax 5k.

Im not purchasing it if it has the VR Bug. (New Assetto Corsa fixed the vr bug)

Cheers
Cant have a VR bug if there is no VR.

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cia001 said:
UP100 said:
rcheliguy said:

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.
When did they get paid to implement VR? I don't think anyone wants to pay Codies to include experimental VR in GRID: Autosport or Toybox Turbos which both had VR way before Dirt Rally was even released.


Occulus paid them to develop Vr support
Thats why its only suported with occulus and with steamvr using revive.
I race with a pimax 4k  and intend to buy the new pimax 5k.

Im not purchasing it if it has the VR Bug. (New Assetto Corsa fixed the vr bug)

Cheers
And no source here either. I find it hard to understand that Oculus would pay a VR support for something like Toybox Turbos.

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kellemann said:
cia001 said:
UP100 said:
rcheliguy said:

I understand from Codemasters' standpoint that they were paid to add VR support to Dirt Rally and offer it to us as a bonus.
When did they get paid to implement VR? I don't think anyone wants to pay Codies to include experimental VR in GRID: Autosport or Toybox Turbos which both had VR way before Dirt Rally was even released.


Occulus paid them to develop Vr support
Thats why its only suported with occulus and with steamvr using revive.
I race with a pimax 4k  and intend to buy the new pimax 5k.

Im not purchasing it if it has the VR Bug. (New Assetto Corsa fixed the vr bug)

Cheers
Cant have a VR bug if there is no VR.


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Codemasters must be reading this trash and lauging... I know I am.

We have gamers against gamers arguing over .... what? The perception that if they (codies) spent money on VR, they won't get a track or car because of the additional resources or cost? So that means everyone else shouldn't get to use their VR hardware for some perception that they are to sacrifice something for VR support. 

The majority of argument here is rediculous. Over silly motives instead of forming together as a racing community like you all should be.

I swear if they also dropped Steering Wheel support, you'd all be banding together against the gamepad racers who would also claim they don't want to sacrifice something for those dirty rich wheel users.

The hastag #noVRnoBuy is more than just a meme. It's free market research. It explains the future purchasing decisions by their consumer base and codies choose not to listen that's okay. It only means VR gamers save some money and will eventually lessen the brand power to market to the simracing community. We will take less notice of codemaster products and it won't matter how much hype they put behind the product.

Credibility is more important than people think. Take a look at aliens colonial marines for Gearbox. If you need a better example of how poor reception and implementation of a product can effect your brand power and future market penetration, look no further than that. Regardless of the circumstances behind the development. They failed to product what the consumer wanted. 

People need to get over this perception you'd get less of a game if be VR was supported. At no point has codemasters promised what you will get or have to sacrifice for VR support. You will get what you will get regardless of the trolls on either side of the VR camp.

So how about we all just start supporting Sim racing as a community, the niche that we are. And each other. 

There's no point arguing about this. You'll get what you get.


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RamjetX said:
So how about we all just start supporting Sim racing as a community, the niche that we are. And each other.
I'm confused by these statements... I wouldn't consider Codemasters' games simulation games anyways, as they are always meant to appeal to everyone as much as they can. Some people who never play racing games have still bought Dirt Rally and so on.

Dirt Rally:
-Number 1 in the UK PS4 physical sales chart.
-Number 19 in the European download chart.
-Number 2 in the UK multiformat physical sales chart in the week of release.

Dirt 4:
-Number 2 in the UK sales charts in its week of release.
-Number 7 in Australia
-Number 2 in New Zealand

F1 2017:
-Number 2 in the UK PS sales chart.
-Topped the XO charts.
-11th on Japan's debut week.
-Number 2 in Australia
-4th in New Zealand

F1 2018:
-1st in TOP40 UK Entertainment software, even ahead of PES 2019. (Launched only a day before the end of the week.)
-According to gtplanet, it topped the sales charts in 11 countries. (UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Finland)

Now those are from various sources. Even SteamSpy guesses that there are around 1-2 million Dirt Rally owners.

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Please add VR support to Dirt Rally 2.0 codemasters!
if you want to charge extra to implement it that’s fine do that!
but don’t ruin this great series for all the VR racers out there!
please!!!!!!!!!!!!

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