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VR support in Dirt Rally 2 ?

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DreamyGhostZ said:

We must respect everyone as players and I'm respecting you just as everybody else in this forum. I guess it's one-sided after all, but you can judge me as you desire.
I think you are misunderstanding me.

I'm not referring to respect at players, I'm referring to respect as a company. If CM wants to be respected as a strong company that develops good simulation titles, they need to be pushing the genre further. They are doing so with some mechanics and features, but then they are actively shooting themselves in foot by foregoing obvious others.

So the player who posts a WR, it's respectable no matter what be it with or without VR, with or without a wheel. But that same respect doesn't extend to CM as a company when they ignore a very strong, vocal, and long-term players.

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DreamyGhostZ said:
...
Guess what DR2.0 supports and has already shown in the codriver videos? Motion support.

So the "niche" argument is completely thrown out. I understand the basis of the argument, but it's an empty argument the second we consider motion support is supported.
No it's not, Motion support doesn't require an exponential multiplication of processing power to work.

on the subject of hardware requirements and related costs:
https://babeltechreviews.com/project-cars-2-pc-vr-performance-evaluation/3/
The conclusion is that even a GTX 1070 could only manage low settings without going into reprojection, GTX 1060 and all else have to lean heavily on reprojection.

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nbates66 said:

No it's not, Motion support doesn't require an exponential multiplication of processing power to work.

on the subject of hardware requirements and related costs:
https://babeltechreviews.com/project-cars-2-pc-vr-performance-evaluation/3/
The conclusion is that even a GTX 1070 could only manage low settings without going into reprojection, GTX 1060 and all else have to lean heavily on reprojection.
Processing power != Implementation costs

Not to mention if you really want to go with that cost reasoning for why we shouldn't implement something, why would you use gear that starts at $3k for your comparison???

You're saying that $300+ hardware to power a feature is too costly for most people to even care about implementing it, but a feature that requires $3,000+ hardware is something that is completely acceptable. I can't even try to argue that logic.

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why would you use gear that starts at $3k for your comparison??
It would appear you only ever look at one end of the market... :D 
heard of a buttkicker?

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nbates66 said:
why would you use gear that starts at $3k for your comparison??
It would appear you only ever look at one end of the market... :D 
heard of a buttkicker?
If you classify buttkicker as motion sim I feel bad for you. It's nice, but it's not true motion. Not to mention you need 2 minimum for anything close to some motion feedback, and at that price we are well passed VR costs...

Oh and let's talk about how many people actually will use that feature. If you think VR adoption is low, I've got news for you about buttkickers - even less people have or even know what they are. Half of the arguments in this thread are about how few will benefit from VR. Then when I bring up an even more niche mechanic you say it's totally reasonable when even less people will be able to experience that.

Make up your mind, are we supporting niche mechanics or not? Why skip VR and support the even lesser know and used motion systems? It's not like an API magically writes itself, and you can't really just reuse what was in the old games...

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nbates66 said:
why would you use gear that starts at $3k for your comparison??
It would appear you only ever look at one end of the market... :D 
heard of a buttkicker?
If you classify buttkicker as motion sim I feel bad for you. It's nice, but it's not true motion. Not to mention you need 2 minimum for anything close to some motion feedback, and at that price we are well passed VR costs..
Well I'm sorry for being somebody that can't afford to spend a ton on a dedicated rig that's used for only VR sim racing and becomes useless if a game doesn't have VR, your argument last page about it being better value than monitors somehow comes across as hollow.

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nbates66 said:
nbates66 said:
why would you use gear that starts at $3k for your comparison??
It would appear you only ever look at one end of the market... :D 
heard of a buttkicker?
If you classify buttkicker as motion sim I feel bad for you. It's nice, but it's not true motion. Not to mention you need 2 minimum for anything close to some motion feedback, and at that price we are well passed VR costs..
Well I'm sorry for being somebody that can't afford to spend a ton on a dedicated rig that's used for only VR sim racing and becomes useless if a game doesn't have VR, your argument last page about it being better value than monitors somehow comes across as hollow.
As always it depends on what you are using the pc for.
In my case I only use it for gaming and that gaming is only rally/rallycross/circuit racing. So the choice of monitors versus VR depends on if the games support VR. Well all modern race/rally games do and on top of a VR is cheaper compared to monitors including brackets.

And then came dirt rally 2...

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2. DR had VR because Oculus paid CM. That's not a boomer, it's just propaganda. They add their flagship product to a fairly well designed game and top sales. Welcome to capitalism
Once again this has never been proven and VR support WASN'T A NEW THING FOR DIRT RALLY. The same studio had already released GRID Autosport and Toybox Turbos with the Rift developement kit support.

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So the arguments have not changed, the one side is saying drop VR, because only a niche will benefit from it. The other side says hi everyone here I'm and I would like to have VR and there are more VR player as the 2% because we are speaking about a racing title.
For me on argument stays: NoVR-NoBuy 

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PolarClaw said:
 the one side is saying drop VR,
Not my argument, I'm all for can having some VR focus after release, I don't want it to impact content quality by having it "rushed in" to make the game release date in 3 months, some here are saying they'd be happy to have the game delayed to include VR by release, I am not.

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nbates66 said:
PolarClaw said:
 the one side is saying drop VR,
Not my argument, I'm all for can having some VR focus after release, I don't want it to impact content quality by having it "rushed in" to make the game release date in 3 months, some here are saying they'd be happy to have the game delayed to include VR by release, I am not.

I'm not against VR, I'm just leaving my opinion here. I think we should all respect others' point of view, so I'm not harassing anyone in this forum. As I said on my first comment, people can ask for VR as much as they want, CM gave them this right. It's not guaranteed that it'll come even after release, but you can try and I'll not disrespect it.

Even if I personally can't afford building a nice rig, with a capable machine, seat, steering wheel, pipe handbrake and VR, it's not my right to be against those who could. I'm just adding some reality to this thread as I see it.

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I've passed Dirt 4 and now i'll have to pass Dirt 2 too and stick to DRrally-1 for rallying because no VR... again! Every serious racing sim (RR, iR, AC, PC2, LFS)  these days is coming out with VR support at launch, but somehow Codemasters think they know better.. well, good luck with that!

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I've passed Dirt 4 and now i'll have to pass Dirt 2 too and stick to DRrally-1 for rallying because no VR... again! Every serious racing sim (RR, iR, AC, PC2, LFS)  these days is coming out with VR support at launch, but somehow Codemasters think they know better.. well, good luck with that!
Hope you keep enjoying DR for many years.

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I find it funny how people are arguing about VR taking away from performance optimization when VR itself needs that optimization.
Regardless, CodeMasters asked us to show demand and here's 19 pages of demand. Make it happen, I'd hate to miss out on a potentially great rally sim.

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makeboi said:
I find it funny how people are arguing about VR taking away from performance optimization when VR itself needs that optimization.
Regardless, CodeMasters asked us to show demand and here's 19 pages of demand. Make it happen, I'd hate to miss out on a potentially great rally sim.
Keep asking, maybe they'll read. I've already guaranteed mine though.

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CodeMasters Admission Document:

... The latest generation of EGO supports a comprehensive feature set around network play in addition to eSports and VR.

...

VR – Codemasters’ teams have been working with VR for more than five years and are experienced in the application of VR to racing games. The EGO engine offers 60Hz rendering and high image quality, and when using VR, the engine will support 120Hz for a comfortable VR viewing experience;

...

The net proceeds raised from the issue of 7,500,000 New Shares (approximately £13.3 million) will primarily provide the Group with additional working capital but, together with existing cash resources and future operational cash flow, will also generally facilitate the implementation of ... * extending the reach of its existing franchises onto more platforms (such as Switch, mobile and VR);
So we can't even get a response about VR over here on the forums, but you are willing to divulge you could support it in your Admission Document targeted towards financial investors and an IPO of new shares.

Page 27, 2nd paragraph if you don't believe me.

Let's talk about this. The player base, who is constantly and actively engaging you deserves the cold shoulder, but when potential money is on the line you'll sell those investors the world. Looking real classy CM, real classy. You even state your engine is fully capable of supporting it, and brag about your ability and veteran status with VR. But when we ask you, you just don't "see the need". 

And I only stumbled upon this doc because I was trying to find the Racenet API. I'll be surprised if this comment survives the night and isn't cleaned up by the mods...

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CodeMasters Admission Document:

... The latest generation of EGO supports a comprehensive feature set around network play in addition to eSports and VR.

...

VR – Codemasters’ teams have been working with VR for more than five years and are experienced in the application of VR to racing games. The EGO engine offers 60Hz rendering and high image quality, and when using VR, the engine will support 120Hz for a comfortable VR viewing experience;

...

The net proceeds raised from the issue of 7,500,000 New Shares (approximately £13.3 million) will primarily provide the Group with additional working capital but, together with existing cash resources and future operational cash flow, will also generally facilitate the implementation of ... * extending the reach of its existing franchises onto more platforms (such as Switch, mobile and VR);
So we can't even get a response about VR over here on the forums, but you are willing to divulge you could support it in your Admission Document targeted towards financial investors and an IPO of new shares.

Page 27, 2nd paragraph if you don't believe me.

Let's talk about this. The player base, who is constantly and actively engaging you deserves the cold shoulder, but when potential money is on the line you'll sell those investors the world. Looking real classy CM, real classy. You even state your engine is fully capable of supporting it, and brag about your ability and veteran status with VR. But when we ask you, you just don't "see the need". 

And I only stumbled upon this doc because I was trying to find the Racenet API. I'll be surprised if this comment survives the night and isn't cleaned up by the mods...
Lol I don't see why mods are even reading this thread. If they were to take it down, they would do it from the beginning, since there are some pretty heavy comments in here.

Money makes the world turn and that's no news.

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@CatBadders

I don't understand what you're complaining about there. Is the engine capable? Yes. Would it require work to do? Also yes.

Codemasters aren't going to come out on here and say "yep, we can definitely add VR to it" if they're negotiating with investors or VR hardware companies, which I imagine is what they're doing. I've no doubt they've taken the feedback on board and will be looking at ways to do it; your link just confirms that.

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@CatBadders

I don't understand what you're complaining about there. Is the engine capable? Yes. Would it require work to do? Also yes.

They are telling their investors that they are VR veterans with more than 5 years of experience. Fact is, in the last 3 years they only managed to port Dirt Rally to PSVR. In all other games they dodged any VR related work. While the most other racing sims get VR support codemasters is not able to add VR to any of their games. Considering that they failed with Dirt 4 and F1 2018 was completely messed up with bugs i would totally short their stock xD


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zissakos1 said:
this is one of the best comments I've read on the VR subject:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/690790/discussions/0/1735468061753280370/?ctp=2#c1745605598723366181

[...]
Why would they devote expensive resources to implement a gimmicky feature?
a) How expensive is it?(source?). When nearly every other sim racing developer has implemented VR into their games, it sounds a little hollow when codemasters claims it is too expensive/hard to implement.

b) There are more people with vr headsets than there are for the entire sales of dirt 4. Dirt 4 sould between 200,000 and 500,000 copies according to steam spy https://steamspy.com/app/421020. Dirt Rally sold between 1 and 2 million copies. One had VR, the other didn't. Anecdotal of course, but no more anecdotal than the "facts" that you are throwing around.

Valve estimated that there are over 600,000 vr users in july https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-monthly-active-vr-users-on-steam-are-up-160-year-over-year/, and that number has risen over the last 5 months. https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/04/idc-vr-headset-market-grew-8-2-in-q3-2018-led-by-sony-psvr-and-oculus/

If there are 600,000(in july, definitely more now) users with VR headsets and 20% buy the game because it develops VR support, that means they have gained 7 million dollars in additional sales.

7 million dollars in increased sales is between 50% and 23% of the sales for dirt 4.

So why would they devote expensive(source?) resources to implement a gimmicky feature?
For the possibility of increasing their profit by 23%-50%(possibly more depending on how many more VR headsets are sold by the time the game releases).

c) VR is being developed by nearly every other racing game for pc, even driveclub and Gran Turismo Sport implemented VR for PSVR.

If the "gimmick" (as you put it) of VR becomes standard for the industry and codemasters has been avoiding implementing it, they will have to catch up to the competition who have been learning how to implement it all along.

Take a step back for a few moments from ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on VR and calling others "edgelords" and try to think of this from the developers point of view...
First of all, GT Sport VR is a joke. It only works on time trial or 1v1 against bot.

Second, CM decides wether or not to implement. If they want to "lose money" as this comment clearly implies, it's not our right to go against their decision on their product. This is called capitalism. Buy if you want.

If it becomes standard, everyone will try to catch up to it. VR is still expensive, even if you quote sets priced at 200 dollars. This is the full price of last-gen consoles in some stores, so it isn't cheap.

Personally I think it'll take at least another 5~7 years for VR to become affordable.

I don't dislike VR. It's fun and immersive, but it's far from being a default gaming tech device.

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zissakos1 said:
Oh, and a large part of the potential customer base has expressed that they won't be buying the game without VR support.
Just to remember: large part or very vocal minority? For every 100 people complaining about no VR, there could be 10000 who, because they don't care if there is VR or not, aren't bothering to say anything.

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zissakos1 said:
Oh, and a large part of the potential customer base has expressed that they won't be buying the game without VR support.
Just to remember: large part or very vocal minority? For every 100 people complaining about no VR, there could be 10000 who, because they don't care if there is VR or not, aren't bothering to say anything.
That's because people who don't own VR usually won't fuss over something like this. YT is being flooded with #novrnobuy comments on every upload related to DR2.0 but most people don't even bother to comment they don't care.

Because, you know. They don't care at all. What reason would they have to comment anyways? I think a vast majority of players will just show their opinion after launch on reviews.

Believe it or not, most will not even mention VR.

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I don't like some who have the reaction that "without VR I ain't buying". That's so childish. This is still a great game that deserves support even without VR, as it's the best rally game on the market. Crippling it would leave us with less choice.

But here's why they should support VR with Dirt Rally. Dirt rally is already a niche game, for sim racers. It's tough, it's not an arcade game in terms of handing, it's aimed at the more hardcore racers, and it's exactly those kinds of people that, when they spend thousands on an expensive PC and VR headset, expect some support form developers. They have a right to be a little peeved. Not only that, they expect better customer service. So if they (CM) actually have reasons why it will take time, or they simply can't do it, they should talk to their customers. But while I will never boycott their games simply due to one feature, as of now, if an alternative game equally good existed, that had VR. I know which one I would choose.

I think VR will make an appearance and CM are just covering themselves in case they do have reason it can't be done later, they wanna do it but are worried they might not be able to. Better to know what you are getting now, and maybe be happy for the bonus, than promise something you couldn't do. It's a bit like when Rockstar say, there isn't going to be a PC version of their game. But as I have said, this is more to do with customer service, because let's face it, we are not privy to why decisions are made.

For the record, I am a Codemasters fan. I bought grand Prix Simulator and BMX Simulator (Atari 800 XL owner if you must know), then they raised the bar with the superb TOCA series and Colin Mcrae and I've not looked back, I'm old-ish.

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How do you know it is the best game? That was said about dirt4 to...

To be honest the footage they showed gives me an idea of another arcadish game rather then a sim. I hope I am wrong with that.

Eitherway at this point I dob't believe one word codemasters say about a new game. To bad but it is them who brought me to that point.

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How do you know it is the best game? That was said about dirt4 to...

To be honest the footage they showed gives me an idea of another arcadish game rather then a sim. I hope I am wrong with that.

Eitherway at this point I dob't believe one word codemasters say about a new game. To bad but it is them who brought me to that point.
That's your opinion. D4 was a boomer, but it points a rather strong need to change, since CM actually killed GRID series with Grid 2 and Autosport (let's be honest, both suck).

DR was made on a budget, a very risky project with funds being acquired on the verge of development. Why is it so good? Because it's different. Why D4 is so bad? Because CM gave the original series a last shot, finally realizing people wouldn't stand default DiRT anymore. They've already tried a more mature approach with D3 even though it was pretty much sluggish. Question is it was sim-focused, despite still featuring arcadish handling.

What to expect from DR2.0? Perhaps a core sim which traces back to its roots. As @mumblesh said before, maybe CM didn't promise VR because letting people down like this would be worse. Do they have the know-how? Obviously. But let's not forget this game is being developed on a rush, since D4 came out on August last year.

I'm not telling you to buy the game on pre-order or even after launch. But to debunk all of CM's efforst, which is clearly listening to the community (they could've announced D5 if they wanted to) to bring us a sequel to their best game to date, is so meaningless and embarrassing.

We already don't have good rally games. Gravel is pathetic, as it is WRC1~7 (new gen) and Sébastien Loeb Rally (why do Milestone keep trying so bad to create games this poor). The best we can do is at least offer some kind of support. CM will surely reward players who stand by their side.


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