Jump to content

VR support in Dirt Rally 2 ?

Recommended Posts

I can even pay $99.99 today for Deluxe Edition with VR support.
For a long time I did not buy any game without VR even though I have 3x39" monitors. I did not make an exception for F1 2017 and 2018 and I will not make an exception for DR 2.0. I know that for Codemasters, my $180 for 3 games is not much, but people like me are thousands !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I pre-purchased DIRT4 because I wanted to support a company that was making amazing racing games in VR. Seriously, Dirt is the ultimate. However I've never even opened DIRT4 because I just have a single crappy monitor that's only use is configuring things to open in VR. I couldn't get a refund on this unusable game (for me) as I missed the 14 day launch period as Steam didn't notify me. So you've already got one full price out of me for doing nothing, you're not getting another unless you support VR in your future games. I would pay you more for VR. I would pay for more stages to be added to the original Dirt! I have money I want to give you! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkyRex said:
I really don't get it... it's just another rendering method. Even a prime example for work to outsource to a company, who does that all the time. The rendering doesn't really change in VR, does it? Instead of a fixed camera, the game now has to render to two cameras, which move around. The position is given by the headset. It should be just a matter of pumping out two images, to two 'monitors',
It's not the same as running on multiple monitors, with multiple monitors your just running an expanded resolution all from a single perspective "camera" with VR you have to render the scene twice, one camera for each eye since your eyes see different viewpoints. It has to be done at a VERY high framerate or it will look terrible/make you sick, in this case 90Hz is usually aimed for, then all this has to be done at high resolutions, in the case of my headset 1400x1400 per eye.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh no, I was really hoping for VR support :( My set is collecting dust because DR isn't appealing anymore. I have about 1000h and only about 150h on Dirt4, only because one had VR and other doesn't. DR2 could be legend, w/o VR, I doubt it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Surely we don't have to hashtag #NoVRNoBuy again.... I didn't buy Dirt4 because of No VR support, I don't have a problem not buying another Codemasters game that doesn't do support VR. My wife will be happy about it.

I'm either playing Dirt 2.0 in VR... or ACC in VR... You're choice Codemasters.

.... my quote from the Dirt4 thread.

RamjetX said:
Just gonna leave this as a message to Codemasters.
Fact:
#1 - My racing setup no longer has monitors attached. I race exclusively in VR now and is my preferred choice. 
#2 - Many VR owners bought Dirt Rally because of the highly rated VR support. Many of which would probably not have bought the game at all without it.
#3 - VR support is NOT DLC.... 
#4 - I have no interest in arguing about large or small market niche with anyone. 
#5 - #NoVRNoBuy .... 

Sorry Codies, I couldn't play your game if I wanted to... You don't support my monitor(HMD).


Still relevant... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
#NoVRNoBuy from me ;)

Really sad about this Decision... Racing Games are the best and easiest Games to Enhance with VR Support. It's not like a EGO Shooter where you need to make the Weapons different and make every Items pikable.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't really know what to say... I'm another person with a rig set up exclusively for VR only.

What you need for a successful game is for a thriving, active community - One such as CS1.6 has ran for years and is still hugely popular today for whatever reason people still enjoy it. If you decide to release the game and then implement VR 3-12 months down the line, the community will be a lot less than launch, the buzz will be dead and people won't particularly care for it any more as much as they did, thus still won't bother buying it - Especially with all the other games coming out such as ACC which does have VR support (in a couple of weeks time of course).

If you plan to implement it - Just tell us. Give a roadmap. Give us an idea what to expect. Worst possible thing you can do at the minute to the people interested and community is ignore it or say 'maybe down the line....'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
not supporting vr is going backwards, Codies could be one of the main players in its adoption, like 1.0 was, so many people got in on it just for vr experience. 
Community manager - wonder how her day looked yesterday, literally every announcement post (fb, twitter, reddit, here) is full of vr mentions, but there is no demand, sure.
I bought D4 hoping for vr support in patch and to support the company, even if announced vr support for this I will wait for reviews, hard to see good implementation if it is afterthought, and they will have to have few months of meetings now before agreeing to doing it.
shame

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Areyouben
I looked a little into OpenVR (universal Wrapper API for SteamVR) and it seems to be as 'simple' as something like this:
Pseudocode(!!!) for easier understanding and much shorter post:
SomeInits();
last_update = get_Timestamp();
MainLoop(){
deltaT = get_Timestamp() - last_update;
last_update = get_Timestamp();
EGO3_UpdatePhysics(deltaT);
openVR->update_Pose();
pose = openVR->get_HMD_Pose();
left_matrix = pose->get_leftEye_tMatrix();
right_matrix = pose->get_rightEye_tMatrix();
frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(left_matrix);
openVR->updateHMD(leftEye, frame_buffer);
mainWindow->update(frame_buffer);
frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(right_matrix);
openVR->updateHMD(rightEye, frame_buffer);
}
This of course has no HUD or anything else tailored towards VR and it has no Menu and no VR-controllers. But with a small team, who have implemented VR in a game before, and having a top-level Wrapper like openVR, I don't really see the huge effort compared to all the other things you need in game-development. Major problem seems only the double-rendering neccesary, but that VR needs more Graphics horespower, we know already.
Maybe the development for PSVR and Oculus was much more barebones back then and they are scared away unreasonable? The business-argument, while valid, is a little questionable, because back in the day VR for DR1 was even more of a small market and therefor a supposedly waste of time, than it is now. And they still did it. And every single other serious Sim coming out has VR support now to give you that maximum immerion. It is almost like Wheel-Support for the plethora of FFB-Wheels, which also are a niche-market and most buyers don't have one.
EDIT: The code-Wrapper of the forum seems a little whacky (...broken?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkyRex said:
@Areyouben
I looked a little into OpenVR (universal Wrapper API for SteamVR) and it seems to be as 'simple' as something like this:
Pseudocode(!!!) for easier understanding and much shorter post:
SomeInits();
last_update = get_Timestamp();
MainLoop(){
deltaT = get_Timestamp() - last_update;

last_update = get_Timestamp();
EGO3_UpdatePhysics(deltaT);
openVR->update_Pose();
pose = openVR->get_HMD_Pose();
left_matrix = pose->get_leftEye_tMatrix();
right_matrix = pose->get_rightEye_tMatrix();
frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(left_matrix);
openVR->updateHMD(leftEye, frame_buffer);
mainWindow->update(frame_buffer);
frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(right_matrix);
openVR->updateHMD(rightEye, frame_buffer);
}
This of course has no HUD or anything else tailored towards VR and it has no Menu and no VR-controllers. But with a small team, who have implemented VR in a game before, and having a top-level Wrapper like openVR, I don't really see the huge effort compared to all the other things you need in game-development. Major problem seems only the double-rendering neccesary, but that VR needs more Graphics horespower, we know already.
Maybe the development for PSVR and Oculus was much more barebones back then and they are scared away unreasonable? The business-argument, while valid, is a little questionable, because back in the day VR for DR1 was even more of a small market and therefor a supposedly waste of time, than it is now. And they still did it. And every single other serious Sim coming out has VR support now to give you that maximum immerion. It is almost like Wheel-Support for the plethora of FFB-Wheels, which also are a niche-market and most buyers don't have one.
We would first have to know how the engine works before saying it's easy to implement. EGO3 is not Unity where literally everything is just one marketplace purchase away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not just a mather of slapping on that script and everything works as intended. The EGO tech has changed, things have been added, things have been updated, things have been removed or replaced. That means that slapping on that script and start rendering DiRT Rally 2.0 in VR might work, but in a very rough form. You need to test every aspect of the engine to ensure that it all works. For example you'll get issues with the z-index of new shaders and materials if things are changed there, you'll get issues with depth buffer if they changed stuff with that, you'll get issues with a lot of other technical things. After testing all that you need to change some technical aspects of the visual side of the EGO engine in order to support VR and then you have to test test test. And then you need to optimize, because all the things that have been added, like the particle and gfx work urgaffel did, might work well on traditional screens, but particles ofen suck in VR, they can do strange things, so they might break or perform bad in VR. So then you need extra time in order to fix that and then test that again to ensure all is good.

So, yeah, they could slap on the same code they had in DiRT Rally, and they might have VR working, kinda. But they need to test, implement, test, change, test, re-implement, work work work work work work. It's just not a mather of clicking a few buttons. :(

The VR market share is already quite small. Then the people within that market that also play simracing titles you'll get an even smaller group, a lot smaller than the FFB steering wheel market share. It's no excuse to never start implementing VR, and as I said, I would love to see it, I'm sure Codies would love to see it also, it's just not something they can do with 5 button clicks so they have to prioritize.

In short, I'll quote somebody from the dev team. He said:
urgaffel said:
Making things work in VR involves almost every discipline, it's not just "1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Either way, when Kunos (AC), Slightly Mad Studios (Project Cars), iRacing, the microteam that makes Live for speed and the ONE guy who made VR possible on RBR, a game from 2004 can do it, why can't Codemasters do it?  Hell, even Codemasters has done it before in Dirt Rally. Their target audience is about the same people so the "we'll look into it if there is a demand" crap argument is invalid. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eXerfit said:
Either way, when Kunos (AC), Slightly Mad Studios (Project Cars), iRacing, the microteam that makes Live for speed and the ONE guy who made VR possible on RBR, a game from 2004 can do it, why can't Codemasters do it?  Hell, even Codemasters has done it before in Dirt Rally. Their target audience is about the same people so the "we'll look into it if there is a demand" **** argument is invalid. 
Dirt Rally was the second Codemasters game to include VR. The first one was GRID: Autosport (2014) which had an experimental VR mode. Both of these games have been developed on the old engine. EGO3 changed a lot of stuff and has been called an "all new engine" multiple times.

I mean they have loads of stuff they want to do like always, so "if there is demand" probably means if they have time and can justify creating VR support for EGO3. This would benefit all EGO3 games in the long term, but no team seems to want to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Areyouben said:
Having worked on a few VR projects I would like to share these points:

- VR is awesome!
- VR has a future in simracing.
- VR implementation is NOT a matter of clicking a few buttons.
- VR implementation is NOT a matter of copy/paste from previous games.
- VR market share is still very low compared to traditional single and triple screen setups.
- Game development is a business, which consists of making choices throughout development that make financial sense.

So to conclude: I'm not hating on VR, VR is awesome! But I'm not at all surprised about the missing of VR support at launch. It is a lot of work to implement. And in order to do all that work Codies needs to invest extra money which is difficult to justify if only a small portion of your player base is actually going to use it.

It is kind of why no big developers worked on Kinect games. It was pretty cool tech as well but with a very low market share so it did not make sense to invest money in something not profitable.

I'm not saying VR is the same as Kinect, or that it will fail like Kinect did. I would love to see DR 2.0 get VR support, it's just that the current market isn't there yet so for some developers it's difficult to justify the investment.
The current market isn't there yet?!?!?! then why do almost all of the major racing titles these days provide VR support? Do companies like to loose money? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don t care about excuses... If dirt rally didnt support wheels, how many would buy it?
No VR support means no buy.

I am dying for more content, but I already skipped Dirt 4, will do the same with Dirt Rally 2.0 if I have to!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkyRex said:
Dytut said:
And if supported, which VR sets? If DR 2 supports VR then I'm getting one.
@Dytut don't make that decision only on the supported devices. There are cross-plattform tools, and there are some big differences between the headsets.
I suggest finding a local electronics store, where you can try out a few.
From my own research and testing:
Original Vive and Oculus Rift have excellent tracking, but horrible Screen Door Effect (SDE), you can count pixels.
Most of the WMR-Headsets have the same screen and lenses, which have quite a narrow sweet spot, meaning you will see blurry areas rather soon away from the centerline. And they have inside out tracking, which in my experience is well good enough for anything in cockpits (flying, driving) and very convenient. It just loses controllers easily when out of the headsets sight.
Then there is the Vive Pro, which I did get to try on CeBiT. This meets all my criteria for great (first) VR headset, but it's imho hugely overpriced. And then there was the Odyssey, a WMR with the same high-res screens (2x1600x1440) as the Vive Pro and much bigger sweet spot. But officially unavailable in europe. Got one anyway, and it is the 2nd best VR I've tried so far (after Vive Pro), for a third of the price.
Don't go by the resolution numbers, through the focus of lenses and the closeness to your eyes, you will have a lot less relevant pixels. A lot are outside the lens-focus and even more make up the cockpit your sitting in. Driving with my VR feels like a 720p screen (on-road), but the immersion and spacial sense makes up for it.
Haven't tried the PSVR though, would gladly read some insight on that, anyone? Maybe making this partly a VR-Rallying-Advice-Thread?
So the cross platform tools work well enough that you really don't need to care that much which headset you get nowadays? In that case it gets a bit easier.

I'm considering getting a second hand oculus or vive just to test how it feels. But pretty much the only title I play that make use of it is DR so far, so it's rather hard to justify buying one just for one game. I can get another sword for the money instead which I'll use every week ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what is it with people who dont own vr that are heavily against it?

i dont get that mindset. why cant we as a community not be open for options for everybody to enjoy the game in the we enjoy it the most.

i couldnt care less if someone wants to play the game on a keyboard with 15" crt monitor. more power to you as far as i am concerned. i just want options for proven hardware. and regardless of people believing it or not, vr headsets have proven themselfs in simracing for 2 years now.

its kinda ridicolous to release a successor of a game with less options of display devices compared to the predecessor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MTOJay said:
what is it with people who dont own vr that are heavily against it?

i dont get that mindset. why cant we as a community not be open for options for everybody to enjoy the game in the we enjoy it the most.

i couldnt care less if someone wants to play the game on a keyboard with 15" crt monitor. more power to you as far as i am concerned. i just want options for proven hardware. and regardless of people believing it or not, vr headsets have proven themselfs in simracing for 2 years now.

its kinda ridicolous to release a successor of a game with less options of display devices compared to the predecessor.
It more or less shows that codemasters don't aim at the people who want sim but aim at the larger group of casual players. From money-talk view it is quite understadable.

On the other hand it gives me the impression that gameplay is also dedicated fir that group. Which means it is more like dirt4 gameplay. In tgat case I don't mind if is has no VR as then I am not that interested anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It more or less shows that codemasters don't aim at the people who want sim but aim at the larger group of casual players. From money-talk view it is quite understadable.

On the other hand it gives me the impression that gameplay is also dedicated fir that group. Which means it is more like dirt4 gameplay. In tgat case I don't mind if is has no VR as then I am not that interested anyway.
So are you trying to say that sim's are only these games that have VR support? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It more or less shows that codemasters don't aim at the people who want sim but aim at the larger group of casual players. From money-talk view it is quite understadable.

On the other hand it gives me the impression that gameplay is also dedicated fir that group. Which means it is more like dirt4 gameplay. In tgat case I don't mind if is has no VR as then I am not that interested anyway.
So are you trying to say that sim's are only these games that have VR support? 
I think he says it's like brining out a new sim, but without any wheel support. Still a sim sure, but maybe not up to the times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I’m not against VR at all, I tried it once, and although it made me very sick, it was incredibly good! But making stupid points about how easy it is to implement are not achieving anything. Hopefully it can be added after launch if there is enough demand for it (which fair enough you need to post about it to get your voices heard), but it’s already been said that it won’t be there for launch, and I doubt that will change

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I’m not against VR at all, I tried it once, and although it made me very sick, it was incredibly good! But making stupid points about how easy it is to implement are not achieving anything.
Indeed. If there's one thing guaranteed to make a developer's blood boil, it's the phrase "surely it would be easy to..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
looperi said:

What i have bought for Dirt rally VR:
Oculus CV1, Thrustmaster T500RS, TH8RS shifter, Clubsport v2 pedals, clubsport handbrake, oculus touch controllers, DOF reality P2 motion platform, Sparco sprint authentic seat and a 4 point harness. And iam not rich.



Mate, I understand that - I'm one who's on the fence with VR; I've tried it with Il2 primarily, it increases the immersion but something about the graphics feel more 'gamey' to me. Just saying I would support its inclusion, but personally it won't be the decisive factor for me personally, although I completely understand why it would be for some.

However, you're overlooking one thing. You've spent all that time and money on DR, but Codemasters have seen about €20 of it. The same €20 that someone who plays the game on a pad for a hundred hours receives. Making your (and my) experience top notch is great, but the only benefit we offer is the positive output, reviews and encouragement for others to buy the game. I think this is what they have discovered with DiRT 4 and are rectifying for DiRT Rally 2 and an early commitment to ongoing support shows this.

Sorry, I'm not saying they shouldn't do VR, but I understand they have to see the business decision for it. Personally, I can see that the benefit is as much in simmers, reviews, positive word-of-mouth and YouTube content as in extra sales, and I hope it's eventually included. Post-live support gives me hope it will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mate, I understand that - I'm one who's on the fence with VR; I've tried it with Il2 primarily, it increases the immersion but something about the graphics feel more 'gamey' to me. Just saying I would support its inclusion, but personally it won't be the decisive factor for me personally, although I completely understand why it would be for some.

However, you're overlooking one thing. You've spent all that time and money on DR, but Codemasters have seen about €20 of it. The same €20 that someone who plays the game on a pad for a hundred hours receives. Making your (and my) experience top notch is great, but the only benefit we offer is the positive output, reviews and encouragement for others to buy the game. I think this is what they have discovered with DiRT 4 and are rectifying for DiRT Rally 2 and an early commitment to ongoing support shows this.

Sorry, I'm not saying they shouldn't do VR, but I understand they have to see the business decision for it. Personally, I can see that the benefit is as much in simmers, reviews, positive word-of-mouth and YouTube content as in extra sales, and I hope it's eventually included. Post-live support gives me hope it will be.
I know what you mean about the graphics and i'd have to agree that they are indeed lacking. Good thing is 2nd gen HMDs are just around the corner aand will make things a lot better. ill probably grab a pimax 5k/+ for Dirt rally _1_ and Richard Burns Rally(2004, also has VR :) ) for the better FOV and clarity, should be epic. Who knows maybe ill have a look a track racing even though i dislike it.

And well yeah, i paid the same as everyone else, sure. But codemasters could've released dozens of cars or stages/locations for 10€ a piece, and i would've probably bought them all. I dont think your average 5/10hours played total player would. I still would buy every bit of extra road content for dirt rally that was offered. But they choose not to, thats on them, not me. I could've been worth 10+ customers for them easy.

I know it might not for some weird reason make 100% sense when looking at the numbers on paper but i mean, even if it takes some hours, how expensive can it be? Looking at the poll going on in the DirT subreddit, 141 people so far have voted they have VR headseats. Thats 7747euros in potential preorders, most surely lost. On top of that, all the lost dlc sales down the road. And really that 141 wont be the end of it. So lets call it an even 10 000 on those 141. Can you really not get VR done for 10 000? Even close?
Even if its almost a +-0 on the bottom line its such a dick move against everyone who got and still enjoy dirt rally for VR alone. The fastest guy actively playing and arguably of all time uses VR and i know of a few others in the top 10 that do aswell. I really dont understand their logic here with this "if theres demand" stuff apart from screwing around with us. They should implement VR, it can be a DLC/additional bought feature i dont care, and release tons of DLC content with new tracks etc and milk us dry while laughing all the way to their desk with a monitor on it. Thats what they should be doing instead of this fiasco.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
“141 people so far have voted they have VR headseats. Thats 7747euros in potential preorders, most surely lost.”

No it’s not “most surely lost” – just because a few fanatical VR purists won’t buy due to lack of VR, doesn’t mean all VR owners are like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×