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VR support in Dirt Rally 2 ?

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kellemann said:
SamRWD said:
kellemann said:
Why oh why did codemaster make that comment of not getting another feature if we get vr. How out of touch can you be. Starting a war on forums. A lot of bad PR. people beeing scared they dont get a complet game, and figthin for there lives not to include vr. Its just STUPID.
This is the state of mind of VR memers. I am so glad that you have nothing else to say, so you won't be posting outside of VR topic, because VR is the priority for you.
Yes, i dont go into "plesase add this car" Thred and ask to not include it. That would be stupid
Yup, talking about VR in that topic would be stupid indeed.

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MTOJay said:

the thing is that the first dirt rally has a big following in the simracing and vr community. thats why there are a lot of those people who were looking forward to this.
What you don't realise is, it was the people you are arguing with (the forum regulars) who asked Codies to make DiRT Rally in the first place, without them the next game would be DiRT Showdown 2 (God forbid). Everything in the game is there because forum regulars asked for it to be included, even VR.
so just that i get that right. on one hand you guys are arguing that its a simple roi calculation and there are not enough people taht would want it and buy the game - so codies would loose money. but in the next sentence you argue that if 4 or 5 forum regulars say "make dirt rally" codemasters go out of their way and make a game for your. and when you guys say "make vr as well" they do that aswell because you guys say so, but not when hundreds of people voice their demands on other channels?!

how delusional are you guys?! do you really think that or is that a joke? (serious question)

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Yes, the forum regulars asked for DiRT Rally. It wasn't as simple as #NoSimNoBuy. We asked for it for 7 years. Codies first DiRT Rally blog even says so right at the start of the blog.

"First I want to say thank you, all you guys and girls have been awesome these last few years. You’ve been telling us what you want for what seems like forever, over on the forum there is a next DiRT game wishlist that actually predates the release of DiRT 3." http://blog.codemasters.com/dirt/04/dirt-rally-now-available-in-early-access/

It wasn't just the wishlist, after DiRT3 they sent all forum members, who wanted one, a questionaire to try and narrow down what we wanted in the new game. We chose the countries, the stages, the game modes, the fact that it was to be a sim instead of an arcade racer like DiRT2+3 was a given.

Before it's release it was known that sales of rally games had been falling with each release, DiRT Rally was going to be the last one, so they gave us what we wanted as a way of saying thanks for sticking by them. They weren't sure it would sell enough copies to even make it through the full Early Access, never mind a console port.

All of this has been openly discussed on here in the past by Codies staff such as Paul, Jon, Lee (the community manager at the time). So it's hardly a delusion, more of a known fact.

 This is why people who claim Codies don't listen to their true fans get openly laughed at by forum regulars. It's also why I've been trying to help you get your point across in a way Codies will listen to you without annoying the forum regulars, you'll get bored of typing #NoVRNoBuy long before they get bored of arguing with you over it
 



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SamRWD said:
This is another example why it is impossible to heave a reasonable conversation with you. It is not about %, it is about numbers. VR is a niche.
I think your out of touch buddy,,,, Sony has sold over 3 million Playstation VR headsets alone,,Thats not even including the millions of Oculus,Vive & the other headsets on the market ,,,,  By the way your desperate VR police attitude is hilarious ,,,keep up the great work officer ,,,,lol

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I think your out of touch buddy,,,, Sony has sold over 3 million Playstation VR headsets alone,,Thats not even including the millions of Oculus,Vive & the other headsets on the market 
You are aware what forums are you on? Do you still remember what game are we talking about? HINT: it is not the same game that those trilions of people will buy.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2017_top_vr_titles/
https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-reveals-top-selling-steam-vr-games-2018-far/

EDIT: Not to mention the people at question is couple of you who won't get DR2 because they want a VR title anyways, so VR is a niche, and you are a meme within a niche.

stevemontuno said:
By the way your desperate VR police attitude is hilarious ,,,keep up the great work officer ,,,,lol
Not sure where you go with that, but VR children lost their touch with reality long time ago, so no wonder.

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SamRWD said:
I think your out of touch buddy,,,, Sony has sold over 3 million Playstation VR headsets alone,,Thats not even including the millions of Oculus,Vive & the other headsets on the market 
You are aware what forums are you on? Do you still remember what game are we talking about? HINT: it is not the same game that those trilions of people will buy.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2017_top_vr_titles/
https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-reveals-top-selling-steam-vr-games-2018-far/

EDIT: Not to mention the people at question is couple of you who won't get DR2 because they want a VR title anyways, so VR is a niche, and you are a meme within a niche.

stevemontuno said:
By the way your desperate VR police attitude is hilarious ,,,keep up the great work officer ,,,,lol
Not sure where you go with that, but VR children lost their touch with reality long time ago, so no wonder.
Dirt rally was realesed in 2015, and your giving numbers for 2017 and 2018. This is a place where we can ask codies to implement vr, and you who clearliy hate the ide have most post. And stop calling people childis and stupid just because they dont agree whit you. This is the last time i respont to you because i almost feel like you in here just to troll.

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SamRWD said:
I think your out of touch buddy,,,, Sony has sold over 3 million Playstation VR headsets alone,,Thats not even including the millions of Oculus,Vive & the other headsets on the market 
You are aware what forums are you on? Do you still remember what game are we talking about? HINT: it is not the same game that those trilions of people will buy.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2017_top_vr_titles/
https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-reveals-top-selling-steam-vr-games-2018-far/

EDIT: Not to mention the people at question is couple of you who won't get DR2 because they want a VR title anyways, so VR is a niche, and you are a meme within a niche.

stevemontuno said:
By the way your desperate VR police attitude is hilarious ,,,keep up the great work officer ,,,,lol
Not sure where you go with that, but VR children lost their touch with reality long time ago, so no wonder.


Pointless links since they show VR-Only games on Steam only.  You're forgetting games like PCars2/1, Elite Dangerous, DCS World, Assetto...etc...  sim games.  Also, there aren't too many racing games for PSVR but people say DiRT is better than Driveclub VR, GT Sport VR, and Wipeout got great reviews(not a sim, obviously).  PSVR players are itching for another VR racing game so 2.0 would sell.  Also, you keep thinking that implementing VR would take away every dev's time from the game because Codemasters said so. It's just not true unless you do it the wrong way. You obviously can't be convinced though cause you're a fanboy that will cling to and preach every word Codemasters says.

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SamRWD said:
kellemann said:
Why dont you make a thred about not wantin vr in dirt rally, insteed of trying to convince people here.
Because 99% of people here don't need convincing. 
If you behaved like grown up man should, I would not even look into this topic twice.
Why don't u piss off u sad little troll going on about 1% bs... U talk about VR people acting like kids but u are the one i see crying everyday about people wanting VR. Your not going to play DR2 in VR so why are u here everyday talking shit to people that do want to play in VR?? This topic does not concern u so please do 1

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kellemann said:
Dirt rally was realesed in 2015, and your giving numbers for 2017 and 2018. 
You claim there is millions of people using VR and that's the argument for VR in DR2. I say it is not true, because a vast majority of VR users is not interested in hardcore racing sim (as newest statistics prove, although it was only logical). Not to mention hardcore rally sim (even people in this topic say they are happy to get a rally sim with removed features/ content just so couple of them can put VR googles on their heads). It would be so easy to post some statistics and arguments to prove me wrong, but it is easier to get angry again. 
kellemann said:
This is a place where we can ask codies to implement vr, and you who clearliy hate the ide have most post. 
This is a place where we discuss VR. And I just present the reality, luckily CM happens to see things the same way I do. It is not about having the most post, but about being right and making a logical argument. Facts don't care about your feelings, I made this one post replying to multiple users. If I was about post count I would make separate posts.
kellemann said:
And stop calling people childis and stupid just because they dont agree whit you.
Well, it is not because you don't agree with me. I've met plenty of people who don't agree with me on various topics. The thing is it doesn't take much to see how VR memers are behaving. It is a typical behavior of a spoiled child- you claim it is reasonable to spoil DR2 for everyone just so you, and your two friends can use VR. When presented with logical argument against it, you start calling names, cry and roll on the floor. I saw it here, I saw it on reddit, I saw it on your petition where the top comment says either you get your candy, or you brake into the store and poo on it's floor.
On top of that VR memers called me a policeman. Since we are clearly on the opposite side of a fence in this discussion, then what's the opposite to a policeman? A lost children?
kellemann said:
his is the last time i respont to you because i almost feel like you in here just to troll.
Well, we will see about that :)

xcAzx said:
Pointless links since they show VR-Only games on Steam only.  
Yes, they show statistics from the biggest platform in the world. Platform, where you can buy games like:
xcAzx said:
PCars2/1, Elite Dangerous, DCS World, Assetto...etc...  sim games.  
Out of which half is not relevant, but they still didn't make it to the top. Anyways, on top of that it is VR memers, not me who need to defend their premise- burden of proof is on you. 
xcAzx said:
 Also, there aren't too many racing games for PSVR but people say DiRT is better than Driveclub VR, GT Sport VR, and Wipeout got great reviews(not a sim, obviously). 
It is about numbers, not about what some people say. Because people also say VR is not worth time and effort compared what everyone outside three people would be enjoying if that time and effort would be kept where it is- to develop the best rally sim of all times for everyone. Also you list a bunch of arcade games, how is that relevant to this topic? Do you even know why we are talking about sales among VR titles?
xcAzx said:

Also, you keep thinking that implementing VR would take away every dev's time from the game because Codemasters said so.
Well, I keep debunking a common fallacy that VR memers spread. I said it before CM said it, so CM saying it could not be a reason for me saying it.
xcAzx said:
It's just not true unless you do it the wrong way. 
HOLD ON GUYS, WE GOT AN EXPERT HERE! CODEMASTERS- YOU BETTER HIRE THIS GUY! FORGET ABOUT IT! SURRENDER TO HIM, HE KNOWS THE WAYS.

xcAzx said:
You obviously can't be convinced though cause you're a fanboy that will cling to and preach every word Codemasters says.
I can be convinced, and I am not a fanboy (you would have known both if you were a part of this community, but you would rather assume, and make yourself look silly- your call).
wulliebhoy said:

Why don't u **** off u sad little troll going on about 1% bs... U talk about VR people acting like kids but u are the one i see crying everyday about people wanting VR. 
I have a feeling that I already replied to this... Awww, sorry we were just talking about children, my mistake.
wulliebhoy said:
Your not going to play DR2 in VR so why are u here everyday talking **** to people that do want to play in VR?? This topic does not concern u so please do 1
Because 99% of us won't be using VR, and your request to add it to the game makes 100% of people to get less refined features/ less content. Just so 1% of userbase can get a VR title (if you wanted a sim, you wouldn't prioritize VR over core features). 

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SamRWD said:
kellemann said:
Why dont you make a thred about not wantin vr in dirt rally, insteed of trying to convince people here.
Because 99% of people here don't need convincing. 
If you behaved like grown up man should, I would not even look into this topic twice.
Why don't u **** off u sad little troll going on about 1% bs... U talk about VR people acting like kids but u are the one i see crying everyday about people wanting VR. Your not going to play DR2 in VR so why are u here everyday talking **** to people that do want to play in VR?? This topic does not concern u so please do 1
Dont feed the troll. Just ignor him and his silly numbers. The guy must have been abused by vr in his childhood or something. Dont feed the haters

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kellemann said:
Dont feed the troll. Just ignor him and his silly numbers.
It is your choice to live in a denial.
kellemann said:
The guy must have been abused by vr in his childhood or something.
It might be a shocker for a young person like yourself, but VR is relatively new thing, so if you want to talk about people abused by VR in their childhood, then those people would still be children today and would act like children, so that means... ;)
kellemann said:
Dont feed the haters
Presenting a logical argument= hating.
1% and their feelings.

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kellemann said:
SamRWD said:
kellemann said:
SamRWD said:
Dirt Rally 2 is a sim. If you want to use a controller, play Dirt 4, or turn all assists on and hope you can keep up with slowest people who drive with steering wheel.
Yes, its a sim. And what other driving sim on pc does not include vr?
Dirt 4. 
EDIT: and F1 2018. Not sure how is it relevant though.
How many rally simulators do we have on the market BTW?
I see a pattern here. Codemaster games. Well, the 2 big ones on this forum are dirt rally and dirt 4. One sold really well and had vr, the other bombed and did not have vr. I have bouth dirt rally on xbox just to support codemaster brilliant work on that game, even thou i haven even started it on the xbox. Dirt 4 dident even temt me at 75% off.
Correlation does not imply causation. DiRT Rally sold well because it was the first proper rally sim since RBR. It handled well, was good looking and it didn't have much of a competition, the only other options were SLRE and WRC5, both of which weren't as good. DiRT 4 flopped because they messed up the handling and because the market was way more saturated with rally games. VR has little to do with that

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And now when the market is even more saturated they need something that sets it abow the rest. I would have been ther day 1 on dirt 4 if it had vr support, and so would many many more. Every time i see somebody buys a vr headset, i am quick to recomend dirt rally. 

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kellemann said:
And now when the market is even more saturated they need something that sets it abow the rest. 
What rest? There is no competition.

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This thread is not about your impressions of racing using VR, it is about discussing if community is OK with the fact, that:

Dirt Rally 2.0 will be missing in core features/ additional content if resources are spent on VR, so 1% of people can use headset.

VR (in one form or other) will be the common thing among gamers. But it is not now. And won't be in next 6 months. It requires not only headset, it requires to prioritize realism/ content/ refinement for being able to use it with DR2, it requires more powerful hardware. We are not there yet. It is still a niche, and number of people who want VR title over a proper rally sim is a meme within a niche.

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kellemann said:
And now when the market is even more saturated they need something that sets it abow the rest. I would have been ther day 1 on dirt 4 if it had vr support, and so would many many more. Every time i see somebody buys a vr headset, i am quick to recomend dirt rally. 
And you would've been dissapointed along with the rest of us, because lack of VR wasn't why it flopped.

Also, you might wanna have look at this poll (this is directed to this topic in general, not kellerman specifically) - https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/not-as-common-as-you-would-think-steering-wheels-and-sim-racing.160050/
Someone previously mentioned Steam surveys as proof that there are more VR sets than there are Wheels. While that might be true in total numbers (I don't know), according to this poll in RD, over 90% of simracers use wheels (that's data from over 600 people), meanwhile in the poll about VR there were about 50% VR users

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What a broken record lol.  Posts links that he doesn't understand(sim games aren't on the list at all because they're not VR only).  Talks about "the numbers," like that's the only thing that matters in a game. That's speak for, "we don't care about our players, we're just greedy."  What if sales are bad because of that perception (see EA) and they decide to scrap the DLCs?  If people see passion in the game (see DiRT Rally) then it will sell well.  If it doesn't have what people want in the game (improvement in almost all aspects) then it won't(see DiRT 4).

Like we've said, get a separate team to implement VR (post launch, even post planned DLC I don't care) and pay them with VR DLC money.  This could also happen with the extra preorder sales VR players would be willing to pay for if Codemasters just confirmed a VR plan.. doesn't have to be at launch.  A lot of us got into simracing because of VR, and we dont want to take a step back and use a monitor.  We want innovation!

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A lot of discussion with the SamRWD troll, which leads to nothing.
Dirt Rally 2 without VR is in my opinion not really DR2 it's more something like Dirt mixed with DR. Nevertheless without VR I will let it out and thankfully the other Sims incl. the new ACC have VR from beginning in the focus.

I'm a little bit wondering why even the smallest teams like AC or rF2 could implement  VR but CM isn't getting it in their games. Even in Dirt Rally which is brilliant in VR we need ReVive to get it running with a Vive. Maybe there is a deeper problem with the CM engine that they are not able to implement VR.

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PolarClaw said:
Dirt Rally 2 without VR is in my opinion not really DR2 it's more something like Dirt mixed with DR.
I Disagree, as a VR user I believe VR is still simply not a large enough niche to put resources toward at cost of other areas of the game, yet.. 

When you support VR you have to spend a lot of extra time doing QA and testing for an extra platform effectively, running through every level/track/stage to make sure everything looks correct from every angle(some rendering methods don't work in VR) and with consistent performance, why is it so hard to understand this soaks up ALOT of development time and money when you do this with large rally stages? Remember what one of the largest criticism's of Codemasters previous Rally game with VR was? CONTENT.

as an example
- Been trying Race Room on VR for the last week, tried a few tracks so far but suddenly discovered the Bathurst track was completely unplayable on my current settings and had to drop everything to lowest, What if supporting VR ended up resulting in 1 or 2 locations becoming completely unplayable for some users due to a QA oversight or due to resources being diverted from QA toward VR?

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xcAzx said:
What a broken record lol.  
Yup, logic is constant. Rest is the usual cry.
nbates66 said:
PolarClaw said:
Dirt Rally 2 without VR is in my opinion not really DR2 it's more something like Dirt mixed with DR.
I Disagree, as a VR user I believe VR is still simply not a large enough niche to put resources toward at cost of other areas of the game, yet.. 

When you support VR you have to spend a lot of extra time doing QA and testing for an extra platform effectively, running through every level/track/stage to make sure everything looks correct from every angle(some rendering methods don't work in VR) and with consistent performance, why is it so hard to understand this soaks up ALOT of development time and money when you do this with large rally stages? Remember what one of the largest criticism's of Codemasters previous Rally game with VR was? CONTENT.

as an example - Been trying Race Room on VR for the last week, tried a few tracks so far but suddenly discovered the Bathurst track was completely unplayable on my current settings and had to drop everything to lowest, What if supporting VR ended up resulting in 1 or 2 locations becoming completely unplayable for some users due to a QA oversight or due to resources being diverted from QA toward VR?
What those people don't get is that at one point of development you reach a point where spending 10% of resources gives only 2-3% of increase in refinement. For example you have physics that are well developed, but if you keep working on them, you will get even further (you can either make certain details more refined, or introduce more of them). 99%... Actually it's 100%. EVERYONE who get's a game benefits from that. If you decide to spend resources on VR, it makes EVERYONE (both 1% of VR memers, and 99% of EVERYONE else) get a sim with less refined features/ less content. That's how mathematics work, but that is logical and children have a bit tough time prioritizing logic over feelings.

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Yeah look... QA people don't code.... it's not typically an interchangeable resource. I project manage everything from Telecommunications to operational systems (software development) and can with great confidence tell you that this isn't the case. The only impact to the development will be schedule and costs. 

Who cares if the majority of VR supporters are fairly new accounts. Its a well known fact that a driving factor for someone to create an account and leave feedback is either to lobby for something they want or complain about something they didn't get. I don't buy the 1% value either... VR market penetration as a percentage of gamers may be low... but as a percentage of sim racers, it's very high. VR is on the slope of enlightenment according to the gartner hype model. Adoption for a niche market product has been staggering for a limited and bleeding edge tech of it's kind. 

If your new to sim racing (and many are thanks to Project Cars1/2, Assetto Corsa) or new to VR and just got into sim racing because of it. Calling new members VR Memer's is stupid. For example... read any car forum on any car brand or model. You'll find more people complaining about issues than people writing about how good their car is.... why? Because when you happy, your too busy doing what makes you happy to get on the net and create an account. If your not happy, then you probably have the time to go through the motions of creating account and stating your reason. 

I've had a Codemasters account since the original Race Driver. For some reason over the years there must have been a reset of user names and now someone else has my Ramjet name so I'm not worried ... (irony is, he lives near me and has literally the identical rig... kinda spooky).

Brand power and reputation is Codies biggest risk going forward and adapting to the market needs. There are some very competative companies in the sim/cade/racing industry now. All heavy hitters and money is getting tighter. Market to your audience, support their investment and stay relevant in the market. 

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PolarClaw said:
A lot of discussion with the SamRWD troll, which leads to nothing.
Calling logical arguments trolling. Childish- you must be a vr memer. Let's see if I am right.
PolarClaw said:
Dirt Rally 2 without VR is in my opinion not really DR2 it's more something like Dirt mixed with DR. 
Yup, I was right (again). So in your opinion Dirt Rally 2.0, the only realistic modern rally sim focused on hardcore audience (steering wheel handling as a priority), with realistic physics, amazing graphics and sounds, with Phil Mills as a codriver, with amazing variety of locations and already announced DLC support is not all above, but it is  "something like Dirt mixed with DR" . OK, why don't you stick to other vr games since vr is a priority to you? DR2 is about realism, it seems not to be a game you would enjoy.
PolarClaw said:
 Nevertheless without VR I will let it out and thankfully the other Sims incl. the new ACC have VR from beginning in the focus.
Amazing, did you ever wonder why there is no other realistic rally sim on the market? Did you ever try to compare development of a racing track and racing location? Racing physics and rally physics across all surfaces and weather conditions? Or maybe you did, and you think CM didn't and they don't know what they're doing? Maybe they developed Dirt Rally VR and forgot that it got them millions of dollars and they just need to take them out of that drawer with a "vr money" sticker on it? 
PolarClaw said:
I'm a little bit wondering why even the smallest teams like AC or rF2 could implement  VR but CM isn't getting it in their games. Even in Dirt Rally which is brilliant in VR we need ReVive to get it running with a Vive. Maybe there is a deeper problem with the CM engine that they are not able to implement VR.
Maybe. But that doesn't matter, because what matters for hungry rally sim enthusiasts is that we are finally getting a tittle we were dreaming of. You don't want that, you are more interested in a vr feature.
 

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RamjetX said:
I project manage 
So you know that resources can be transferred from one department to the other. Not particular people specializing in particular field. Resources as in how many and what kind of specialists you get. As in assets.
RamjetX said:
Who cares if the majority of VR supporters are fairly new accounts. Its a well known fact that a driving factor for someone to create an account and leave feedback is either to lobby for something they want or complain about something they didn't get. 
That's exactly what I was saying all the time. New people come here, don't know about anything other that the fact, that there is a new game coming and it won't have VR. Accounts that have been active for years and have been engaged in discussion are more likely to be attached to a product, and are more valuable to any service (well, I know ie banking services are an exception in some places, because people are less likely to change their banks and that makes getting new clients more beneficial, but that is not the point). Also those oldtimers are less likely to make new accounts just to make numbers look bigger:

RamjetX said:
I don't buy the 1% value either... VR market penetration as a percentage of gamers may be low... but as a percentage of sim racers, it's very high. VR is on the slope of enlightenment according to the gartner hype model. Adoption for a niche market product has been staggering for a limited and bleeding edge tech of it's kind. 
You seem to fall into the same trap that VR memers try to set- VR user=/= one client less for a game without a VR. Sim racers are the one of the best communities on the internet (flight simmers being also amazing). People who care about hardcore realism will buy the only realistic modern rally sim with all the features I listed before even if there is no VR to enjoy. Even F1 2018- a title that is not considered the most hardcore sim on pair with AC got shockingly good reception among sim racers. No VR. Could be more realistic. VR memers are a fracture of people who will value VR feature over one in decade opportunity to get a rally proper rally sim that people were begging to get. That is 1% I am talking about. A meme within a niche.

This is the main thing, not gonna comment on rest of your post, because I agree with some of it. But the point I am trying to get across it that DR2.0 is not another racing sim. It is something new, it has no competition, it is aimed at hardcore rally simmers. VR is not what makes is epic and it is not the selling point. VR memers should buy the game so CM get's resources and pushes content and features more. Given your experience I am sure you are aware that getting a VR into DR2 is not something that F1 series won't also benefit in in one way or the other. It is just not something that makes sense right now. Is my language a bit provoking? Yes, it is. I was speaking very different way in physics thread, because there were people I could reason with. ITT- just emotional crowd that acts like children. Same on reddit. Same at petition site. It is a 1% fortunately. 

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RamjetX said:
Yeah look... QA people don't code.... it's not typically an interchangeable resource. I project manage everything from Telecommunications to operational systems (software development) and can with great confidence tell you that this isn't the case.  
Yes, but the development resources need to respond to the issues that get discovered.
RamjetX said:
The only impact to the development will be schedule and costs.  
The entire point i'm trying to make is that attempting to implement VR for launch will impact the schedule, costs, quality and quantity of the content!

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