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Dirt Rally 2.0 rally locations and tracks

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I'd rather have new locations than new stages in existing locations. It makes the game more varied, and I don't think it would be that much harder to make. Sure, with new stages in existing locations they can reuse more assets, but I don't think that's a deal breaker.

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Oscar97 said:
I'd rather have new locations than new stages in existing locations. It makes the game more varied, and I don't think it would be that much harder to make. Sure, with new stages in existing locations they can reuse more assets, but I don't think that's a deal breaker.

I'm completely the opposite, especially when they've got a few. Remember, new locations take longer to make than new stages in existing ones. So it would take the same time (roughly) to make 3 stages for an existing location as to make 2 for a new location.

Also, 20km per location just doesn't feel enough to have a proper 'event' upon. An eight stage rally on DR1 meant you'd go over the same piece of road again and again and again. I'm hoping they go for slightly different itineraries in the new game to mitigate this, but there are limits.


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AIPacino said:
While it'd be awesome to have another extra long track per country (making a total of 3), I'm happy enough if the 2 they bring are top quality like DR1.
Me too, quality above quantity for such a game. 

Besides, a few trails to get more variations by track were not discussed that much so far :
1) the amount and the type of weather variation per track : how many tracks with only lighting differences in function of the day time, and how many with rain / snow / ice / night / night+rain / etc. ? Imagine you could get fine or hard rain, it can change the visibility but also the surface conditions (muddier = stickier ?...), with a thunder lighting in the far for the decor ? (or is there never thunder when rally is organized ?...).  You also could imagine to model some influence of lateral wind on some jumpy tracks, or with hanging road sections; no need to have a wind model along the whole track, but on the few critical sections where it can disturb a little...
2) one could easily introduce some variations on tracks, I guess, by making 3-4 versions of a same track but with a dozen small differences along the track, e.g. a corner where a rock disappears (and perhaps so does a "don't cut" call altogether), another tricky section (with a jump ?...) where the low sun light is filtered by a flag in the one and not in the other version, and so on ... For snowy tracks, small changes in distribution of icy sections, or parts with more/less snow height on a few sections.  This can be combined with the announced surface variations in function of your place on the starting list...

In fact, what's the purpose : to get more tracks, or to get more variations in driving experiences, and to keep some unpredictable behaviour of the car, even after having run a track 30 times or more ? 

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@ledid I agree with the second point you make; in DR1 I was hoping they'd make some variations on the stages in game. The German stages and Sweet Lamb  would have been perfect for it and the Greek and Finnish stages had ample opportunity to add the odd chicane or obstacle to change the route up a bit.

The Argentinian stage appears to have several of these little diversions where an 'alternative' path is modelled; maybe these could give a little extra variety?

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Oscar97 said:
I'd rather have new locations than new stages in existing locations. It makes the game more varied, and I don't think it would be that much harder to make. Sure, with new stages in existing locations they can reuse more assets, but I don't think that's a deal breaker.

I'm completely the opposite, especially when they've got a few. Remember, new locations take longer to make than new stages in existing ones. So it would take the same time (roughly) to make 3 stages for an existing location as to make 2 for a new location.

Also, 20km per location just doesn't feel enough to have a proper 'event' upon. An eight stage rally on DR1 meant you'd go over the same piece of road again and again and again. I'm hoping they go for slightly different itineraries in the new game to mitigate this, but there are limits.


But don't forget they still have DR1's locations which can be brought in, and that would instantly double the content by making the championships 12 events long. Taking into account you complete the 12 stages of each rally in roughly an hour, that would be a 12 hour championship nonstop.
I know what you're saying and I would also like to see more stages per rally, but considering the current calendar is scarse, it'd be more feasible to bring new locations for now.

Keep in mind that if they were to add more stages per rally, they would have to revisit those locations again to take photos, etc, to keep the stages up to reality.
It's cheaper to cover the european locations now rather than go back to australia or new zealand.

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Surely Wales UK and Finland Thousand lakes are a MUST for any serious Rally Sim ? Two events that hold up as the very foundations of the long history and DNA of timed trials and point to point Motor Rally.

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AIPacino said:
I'd rather see Corsica tho. It's not taking part in WRC 2019 so a window opens there, plus it's got more history than Irish Rally. I'm not judging by how good or how bad these 2 rallies are, simply for their history and iconicity (is that even a word?).
Third oldest rally in the world is the Circuit of Ireland (1931)...... Corsica started in 1956  ;)  

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AIPacino said:
Oscar97 said:
I'd rather have new locations than new stages in existing locations. It makes the game more varied, and I don't think it would be that much harder to make. Sure, with new stages in existing locations they can reuse more assets, but I don't think that's a deal breaker.

I'm completely the opposite, especially when they've got a few. Remember, new locations take longer to make than new stages in existing ones. So it would take the same time (roughly) to make 3 stages for an existing location as to make 2 for a new location.

Also, 20km per location just doesn't feel enough to have a proper 'event' upon. An eight stage rally on DR1 meant you'd go over the same piece of road again and again and again. I'm hoping they go for slightly different itineraries in the new game to mitigate this, but there are limits.


But don't forget they still have DR1's locations which can be brought in, and that would instantly double the content by making the championships 12 events long. Taking into account you complete the 12 stages of each rally in roughly an hour, that would be a 12 hour championship nonstop.
I know what you're saying and I would also like to see more stages per rally, but considering the current calendar is scarse, it'd be more feasible to bring new locations for now.

Keep in mind that if they were to add more stages per rally, they would have to revisit those locations again to take photos, etc, to keep the stages up to reality.
It's cheaper to cover the european locations now rather than go back to australia or new zealand.
DR1's locations cant be used again due to Licensing restrictions by the WRC on actual locations such as Ouninpoja, Sweet Lamb, Col de Turini.... if they were to use the same countries they would need to create all new completely fictional stages

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AIPacino said:
Oscar97 said:
I'd rather have new locations than new stages in existing locations. It makes the game more varied, and I don't think it would be that much harder to make. Sure, with new stages in existing locations they can reuse more assets, but I don't think that's a deal breaker.

I'm completely the opposite, especially when they've got a few. Remember, new locations take longer to make than new stages in existing ones. So it would take the same time (roughly) to make 3 stages for an existing location as to make 2 for a new location.

Also, 20km per location just doesn't feel enough to have a proper 'event' upon. An eight stage rally on DR1 meant you'd go over the same piece of road again and again and again. I'm hoping they go for slightly different itineraries in the new game to mitigate this, but there are limits.


But don't forget they still have DR1's locations which can be brought in, and that would instantly double the content by making the championships 12 events long. Taking into account you complete the 12 stages of each rally in roughly an hour, that would be a 12 hour championship nonstop.
I know what you're saying and I would also like to see more stages per rally, but considering the current calendar is scarse, it'd be more feasible to bring new locations for now.

Keep in mind that if they were to add more stages per rally, they would have to revisit those locations again to take photos, etc, to keep the stages up to reality.
It's cheaper to cover the european locations now rather than go back to australia or new zealand.
DR1's locations cant be used again due to Licensing restrictions by the WRC on actual locations such as Ouninpoja, Sweet Lamb, Col de Turini.... if they were to use the same countries they would need to create all new completely fictional stages

Not the case. Argentina is a current WRC event and the stage being replicated for DR2.0 is none other than El Condor, the country's most iconic rally stage. The case with Spain will probably be the same too.

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I have this theory that it wasn't the stages themselves but the combined locations that got the codies in hot water with the WRC guys. Which is why they can probably get away with Argentina, Spain, and Australia in DR2 While they are iconic they are not as iconic as Monte, Wales, Sweden and Finland. I think including iconic stages in those iconic current WRC rallies using (mostly) current WRC cars in DR is what made the WRC guys started to 'pressure' Codemasters. 

Becauce they had made a better WRC game than the actual WRC game

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Licensing and restrictions can change, CM were advised not to copy stages exactly, in case they were challenged, that was the case a few years ago.

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Licensing and restrictions can change, CM were advised not to copy stages exactly, in case they were challenged, that was the case a few years ago.
We don't really know if they got any actual pressure from the likes of WRC lawyers. As far as I understood they were advised from their own legal team to be careful.

In the end the stages aren't exact replicas, but can still be recognized. 

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AIPacino said:
I'd rather see Corsica tho. It's not taking part in WRC 2019 so a window opens there, plus it's got more history than Irish Rally. I'm not judging by how good or how bad these 2 rallies are, simply for their history and iconicity (is that even a word?).
Third oldest rally in the world is the Circuit of Ireland (1931)...... Corsica started in 1956  ;)  
Talking about WRC history here.

This whole licensing bullshit is annoying and nonsense to be honest. Rights should be centralized and whoever wanted to buy them would have access to them, just like football tv rights. If CM have the upper hand on quality and are able to replicate the WRC experience a lot better than any other studio, why should they be limited to it?

In the end, it doesn't even make any sense for WRC's image and profits. If they allowed multiple studios to buy the rights they would net way more money than with a poor game that barely sells and everyone would be happier. We would also have more studios wanting to do rally games, just like in the late 90s early 2000s where the rally games market was at its pinnacle (well at least in terms of options and movement).

Keep in mind Milestone were also able to license real rally locations and their respective stages (at least some of them) for SLRE, which has nothing to do with WRC. So if some studios are able to do it, CM should also be able to. If someone is limiting the licensing ability for CM, then it's purely a childish act.
Everyone knows the superior rally game comes from CM, even with a flop like D4.

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To me, licensing roads or getting in trouble with WRC for using them, is like one WWII game pursuing another for using the same location and weapons.  Yes, its competition and duplicating the location, but history I don't think can be copyrighted (yet).  

Unfortunately it seems that sporting events (ALL) have somehow coeorsed everyone to thinking they own everything but the person that buy a ticket (or spectates, etc).  Its all boils down to corporate greed - yeah its a moral issue, but there is no covering it over.

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Well it comes down to interpretation, that's the issue - there's likely not a huge amount of precedent.

For example, do Suzuka own the layout of that circuit? Their company designed and built it. SMS (of Project CARS) clearly think they do, because they amended their version to differ from the real one sufficiently.

But does anyone own the layout of the Circuit de Monaco? Clearly SMS and Polyphony don't believe so, and both have used the public roads under a vague name so as not to try and make it look like they're promoting a game with a version of the Monte-Carlo Grand Prix in it.

Rallying is obviously closer to that latter category, but it makes it difficult to determine ownership as there probably aren't many cases with a strong precedent. Some areas, such as Sweet Lamb, are on private land and arguably no different to a circuit. Maybe the Forestry Commission could claim rights over the layouts of other Welsh roads, for example.

Maybe the El Condor stage is owned by a local group who have licenced it to Codemasters or maybe it's deemed to be a stretch of open road which can be put in a generic rally game which isn't using any content which could be construed as representing WRC Rally Argentina.

It may have been that the issue with Dirt Rally was that it was using obviously identifiable WRC spec (a spec licenced/approved by the Promoter) on iconic WRC stages, the combination of which brought it dangerously close to being sold as a WRC game. 

Hopefully, using the 'global' specs of cars, such as R5, R4, RGT and R2 means they can combine them with these public road layouts, without any liveries or logos tying them to WRC to make a product which it can't be argued is simulating WRC. For sure, I hope there's a way to bring some of the DR1 stages back for DR2 via DLC.

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TL;DR

Headlining your game with a Polo WRC in works livery, a combination only used in WRC, on Ounimpoujha, a stage only used in WRC, could be argued to be a representation of the WRC.

A Fiesta R5, in a default livery, on a stage in Hafren, used in multiple rallies, is far less likely to be interpreted as trying to imitate WRC.




---

A conspiracy theory for anyone still reading; maybe this is why some of the older locations can't be included at launch. The Polo R5, in its its advertised livery, will likely only have run in WRC (WRC2) events (Spain, Monte Carlo, maybe Sweden) until likely next Spring. Once it is being used in ERC and various regional championships, it can no longer be argued that it's imitating WRC. With a Spanish stage in game, this seems unlikely (although I guess this stage will be the one with El Molar, not used in Catalunya for a couple of years), but just throwing it out there recklessly.

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AIPacino said:
I'd rather see Corsica tho. It's not taking part in WRC 2019 so a window opens there, plus it's got more history than Irish Rally. I'm not judging by how good or how bad these 2 rallies are, simply for their history and iconicity (is that even a word?).
Third oldest rally in the world is the Circuit of Ireland (1931)...... Corsica started in 1956  ;)  
Irish roads are so much better than Corsica! If I was a multi millionaire Corsica is one rally I wouldn't consider the roads are spaghetti. And Ireland makes sense for Codemasters financially fingers crossed

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But the fact that Rally of Ireland has only been included in the WRC calendar in 2007 and only for 4 times makes me cringe a bit lol.
It's like it's not a flagship event or an event that calls much attention. Maybe I'm just too attached to the WRC history.

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AIPacino said:
But the fact that Rally of Ireland has only been included in the WRC calendar in 2007 and only for 4 times makes me cringe a bit lol.
It's like it's not a flagship event or an event that calls much attention. Maybe I'm just too attached to the WRC history.

Then I envy you, you have so many cool events to discover. I recommend going to YouTube and checking out some of the following:

- Ypres & Condroz in Belgium
- Barum/Zlin in Czech Republic
- Valais in Switzerland
- Azores in Portugal
- Ulster & Donegal in Ireland
- Mont Blanc & Var in France
- Arctic in Finland

And plenty more. The above have plenty more history and depth in their entries than many WRC rounds and some gorgeous scenery in some (especially Valais and Azores IMO).

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I know the azores one since i live in sao miguel ^^ many people want to see it on a rally game.

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I think I would prefer Ireland over Corsica, just because it wasn't included in a lot of rally games  (I think there were two Irish rounds in Rally Championship 2000, but that's the only game that had them, AFAIK), and there isn't even a single stage from Ireland in games like RBR, so you don't really have a chance to play it. So I think it deserves a chance

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As long as the Wales stages are retained I dont really care too much for the rest, however Kielder Forest and Grizdale forests would be awesome additions.


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